Does anybody buy 4x6 prints? - DPChallenge Forums

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon (Black)

08/24/2006 02:58:04 PM · #1

Very well said PROF FATE... I understand and have considered almost everything in your post. I didnt go into as deep of detail as you but I have considered thoese things.

I am not saying that my model is the end all to be all. Just was saying this is what I am doing in my market.You said...
"Consumers of photography are used to sitting fees, high print prices and and 'units' or pacakges".
I dont dissagree with that. But that dosent mean that it will always be viable in todays market. I have heard many old school photographers look down on clients that use Wal Mart or Glamor shots. I insted am trying to serve them. They arent used to the High sitting fees etc. That is why they are using Wal Mart and glamor shots. I guess I am that bridge in between. The way I see it, there are more pople that can afford to use thoese services then there are avaliable to use high end photographers. That is why there is a studio in every Wal Mart, Sears, and Mall. They may walk in thinking they are going to get alot for the $6.95 that brought them into the studio. But once there, a strong pitch is made to up-sell. Most people walk out spending like $180-$250. Where I come in is saying you will get better service and your cost is known from the start. $150 and then I show you how to get your prints. Or I can print for you. Most enjoy the ability to print at their own pace or e-mail to family and friends. The great thing about America is there is a space for everyone. I am serving my niche and tip my hat to other photogrphers. This has been very enjoyable to me. It is always good see another photographer at least aware that the landscape is changing.

D.
P.S I peeped some of your work. Very nice.Do you have a web site ?
P.S II: I pay my 14 yr old son $8 per hour to help me. He is good at working the computer, and I can take him to some functions.

Message edited by author 2006-08-24 15:00:50.

08/24/2006 01:15:25 PM · #2

Originally posted by lild01:

Great Post Prof...

Just let me be clear. I have had my legal business in the states eyes (Does business as Cert. Liscense, and Tax ID). I pay taxes each quarter and do have expenses.For example each 4x6 printer cost me $200. And I have 3 of them so I do recover my cost but over time. I just chose not to go into all of that. I have cost and my $150 rate for a portrait session does cover all of the things that you detailed. I will also say that I do use a pro lab and have found that the things that I get from a lab do seperate me from wal mart. Its just that some customers dont want a 16"x20" canvas to hang over the fireplace. And if you remember I said I charge for the price of printing plus 25%.

Wee... take all of this in and find what works for you.
D.

Like i said, if it works for you great! Sounds like you've done the business calcs and have a plan.

It's just i see lots of photographers that come from the artistic side of the tracks and the business part is foreign or just boring or unimportant and gets ignored.

One of the more common threads is 'What do I charge for....' - if you know your costs, you can figure out if it's profitable or not to do the job.

Each industry has their way of doing things. As a long time car and bike mechanic you ALWAYS charged for labor, on parts teh markup was from 20%-400%). As an electrician the theory was labor could be given away, but NEVER materials. both are blue collar trades but have very different opinions on the same thing. You can come up with a new biz model (Saturn tried for a number of years in the car selling biz) and see if it works. It might. Commercial photogs charge a 'creative fee' and then everything else is cost or cost + a markup. Consumers of photography are used to sitting fees, high print prices and and 'units' or pacakges.

08/24/2006 01:01:40 PM · #3

I have a degree in business, so forgive me my take on this subject.

Established (old skoool?) studios have one business model. One should not dismiss them offhand becuase 'I ahve a better idea!' - you might, but the proven method as worked well for a long time. For example, it's quite common to sell 'packages' - one pose in 2, 4 or 6 sizes. Less PP work! I may offer this (up my individual print prices and then discount them if you buy a 'pose set'). It has some sound theory behind it.

Show big to sell big! if all you show is 4x6 or 8x10 then that's all the clent buys. Show 20x30, 16x20, 11x14 - then when they see how small 8x10 looks they buy bigger. This is why the #1 tool right now to increase sales and profits in the studio biz is the projector 'view and choose' session. Generally, if the sitting was 30 minutes the client gets a 30 minute session to choose their prints. On site at the stuio, with LARGE projected pics. Sales are 20-100% above the old proof book method. Think about it - for a HS senior lets say - you send a proof book home and they have 2 or 3 weeks to think it over and reduce the sale (they DO reduce the sale you know -"Do you like this one or that one? We can't afford both Jenny" vs in the view and choose - music playing, the first time they see the images is when you pop it up on the wall as a 20x30 or 30x40 and then the HAVE to decide before they leave what to buy - so the exchange is more like "I don't know...I like them both. Can we get both?" and teh sizes are bigger. EVERYONE i've talked to (about 12) studios that have gone to this say the same things. More print sales and bigger prints sold. Next year it's the way I'm going. (currently web proof).

25% markup? nah...no money it that. I get 8x10s from my prolab at $1 each. No shipping fee either. $2 handling fee and a minumum order of $10, so $12 is the least I can spend/buy. Prints come UPS in a box and look great. Anyway, if I sold them at $1.25 I'd be LESS expensive than walmart! Get real. Also, 10 prints at $1.25 is $12.50...or perhaps I shold up that to 25% over the 12.00...still $3 for my time to upload and unpack and sort the delivery, and handle the prints, etc - not profitable. Think like this - if you get busy, then the scut work can be hired aout for $7 an hour or so. )$7 an hour costs you the employer closer to $9. ) Sorting and packing orders is scut work as a HS kid can do it while you earn big bucks shooting/selling/editing. You should charge enough to at least cover the scut work costs!

Also, I have an inventory of proof boxes, 8x10 presentation boxes, folios, bags, etc - this adds to the 'value' of my product (think the tiffany box - even McDonalds considers packaging) this costs me money as the $200 I have sitting there could be in the bank making interest - so i need to 'make' money on these incidentals too).

How it works out in $$
1400 hours - 52 weeks, 2 weeks vacation, so 50 weeks to work, 40 hours a week is 2000 hours you are available for work. What amount of that is spent on non-billable stuff? Making the biz plan, accounting, updating your website, personal projects, phone call to the wife - or bank, or lab, or meeting with the ad guy from the paper or in school, equipment maintenance, sweeping the studio, filing, or... you get the idea. I figure 600 hours (12/week) that leaves 1400 to bill. can I bill that whole 1400? Hard to say. Figure 80% efficeincy so 1120 max. (people waste time slackers...)

You want to make $50,000 in salary? After taxes? You need to make $70k at least then to net 50. $70,000 / 1120 hours = $62.50 an hour. Just to pay you what you want.

Advertising...$3500 a year? (here that's two bridal shows and a year's contract with the newspaper)
Rent/utilities - 25% of my home is dedicated to the biz, so i can deduct 25% of my electric, gas, mortgage interest, home improvements and repair, prop taxes) - about $5000 a year.
Internet, phone, website...$1200/year (at least)
Computer upgrades (hard money spent) $1000
camera stuff....sky's the limit, but $2000 is low if your a pro
studio (backdrops, lights, props) $1000 a year (might be low too)
car expense - gotta drive to locations, pick up prints, etc at 40c/mile - $3000 easily
insurance, accountant, signage, updating displays, schooling, books and DVDs...there are more...but that adds to $16,700 in overhead ( divided by 1120 hours to earn the money)

One time things - buying the equipment and paying the loan for it could be in here too. that might be wedding albums, big prints, a projector, on-site 4x6 printer, etc
COGS - cost of good sold - the prints, postage, packageing, etc.

So you have $14.91/hour in overhead costs and $62.50 in salary - you have to get $78/hour for EVERY ONE of the 1120 hours to make your money. You might not work/bill 1120 hours.

Ahh...print sales! this is where the can come in big time! making $2 on a print is not going to help the bottom line. Getting a HS senior to buy $400 in prints (that cost you $50) or upgrades on a wedding album, parent's albums, etc - these things are where you will make you money, where you HAVE to make your money.

If you another way to do it, by all means let me know!

Message edited by author 2006-08-24 13:02:17.

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon (Black)

08/24/2006 11:28:26 AM · #4

08/24/2006 10:51:53 AM · #5

Prof_fate... cool - thanks for taking the time to post this! Some more good thoughts. It's a good business model. I had forgotten about taking into account overhead PLUS the 35% uncle sam lovin'.

BTW - where did you get the 1400 hour number from?

So whatever model I use, I need to evaluate my personal budget to determine what I need to live + what I want to make in addition to that + business costs + 35% of that total to figure out how much I need to make and then determine how much to charge from that. Though it is a bit of a guessing game because clients aren't knocking down my door (I haven't had a shoot in two weeks) - I live in a very rural area in upstate New York. It doesn't matter how much I charge if I don't have clients to pay me!

Keep the advice coming! This is great!

08/24/2006 10:36:04 AM · #6

If you're running it as a business you have to/should look at it in business terms.

You have costs - overhead, the ones you ahve to pay whether you have 1 client or 100 - insurance, phone, advertsing, rent (if you run it out of your house you can deduct the costs on your income tax, so you do have costs for this, even if they are not obvious). You have variable costs - the prints themselves, envelopes, etc. You have equipment - computer, software, camera, lenses, lights, etc - these things do wear out and get outdated and can be depreciated on your taxes, so you need to figure in a cost for them.
Taxes. Once you make some money uncle sam and your state will want some of it. Self employed it's as much as 35% of your gross - so that $5.00 you collect on that print has more costs in it than 32c for the print.

then you have labor of course.

This is why photographers charge so much. They have costs. So you can run it as a hobby and have fun, but you may be losing money, or actually make more working for mcDonalds. I've seen it happen. If you are not making a profit you can't stay in business.

One reason the "traditional model" has prints selling so high is that is what the customer buys - if you create good portraits the customer buys them, right? The better you are the more they'll pay. If you are average or at least no different than the other photographers in town the customer will buy on price. Isnt' that how you buy some things? (milk, gasoline, vegetables - all the same, so cheapest wins)

I too have an alternate model - take all my overhead and equipment costs and divide by the hours I can bill for (my marketing time, acounting time are not billable so they don't count). So I get a max of 1400 hours a year, assuming I work all 1400. Simple division gives me $5/hour or $8/hour or $12/hour for costs. Add in what I want paid for my time ($30 an hour for everything, or $15 or PP and $50 for shooting? You decide - but 35% of it is potentially taxes you'll pay so allow for that).

So you want $30 and your OH is $12 - you need $42 for every hour you work - so if a sitting takes 30 minutes, and 10 on the phone, 30 more at the view and choose, 20 minutes to make proofs, 40 minutes for the PP, 10 to upload and 10 to unpack the UPS box from the lab, 10 more to pack for the customer and call them, 10 more to deliver (talking, ooh and ahh) then that session really takes 170 minutes, or 3 hours if you pee or get a cup of coffee. So you need 42 x 3 - $126 PLUS the cost of the prints/bags. Whether you get all that as a sitting fee or the sitting is free and the print sales pay it is up to you.

Sure you can give the images on CD for 'free' if you get the $126, but I get they'll pay somethine for prints, and if you hook up with a pro lab you know the quality will be there (and hence your reputation) and you can offer more products - walmart doesn't do 16x20 on canvas - so you're dealing with the prints is actually a real benefit to your customer!

I want my $126 from the sitting fee if at all possible, and then if I done good, they buy lots of prints and I make money. If I didn't meet their expectations they I sell fewer prints and I get immediate feedback that i need to improve!

08/24/2006 09:54:08 AM · #7

Originally posted by lild01:

I know its very different, but its simple and keeps me busy. How long have you had your bisuness ? or are you just starting out ?

Ahhh, now YOU'RE getting personal ;)

I've been running for about three months. Had a few family portraits and charged per print (no sitting fees). I wanted to put together packages to make it easier to order and to make sure I made something out of it (if they only ordered a 5x7 from the shoot I make like $5 from the day's work). I really want to be fair to myself and the customer.

I really appreciate your (and everyone else's) input.

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon (Black)

08/24/2006 09:46:08 AM · #8

I know its very different, but its simple and keeps me busy. How long have you had your bisuness ? or are you just starting out ?

08/24/2006 09:39:18 AM · #9

Yeah that was a bit personal asking for rates - but thank you. It gives me something to chew on.

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon (Black)

08/24/2006 09:34:32 AM · #10

Goodmorning Wee.
Now were getting personal asking for how much I make/charge but I dont mind.

Here are a few basic rules of thumb for me and my pricing.
1) I think its better to be paid to shoot, then sitting home watching TV.
2) Each happy customer brings me more customers
3) I know my market ( middle class Ga clients about $50K-$65K per family a year )
4) I know what I have to make each day as a fair pay to me. I mean what I would like to make each day-week.
Note: I know I can`t control who comes in my front door looking for service, but that dont mean I have to make my weekly rate on one customer.
5) Remember that I shoot at a club 3-4 nights a week, and charge $6.00 for 1 or $15 for 3 4x6 prints. (my cost $0.32 per print)
Note: I spend about 4 hrs a nite shooting at the club and make about $450-$600 per week. Not getting rich but it does take alot of the pressure off. The best thing about this I am advertising to about 500 people a week. I am the only photographer that most of them know. So they look me up first when they are getting married, Sr pics etc. Also I call this my walk away money. I dont have to do any PP or anything like that. That makes me very happy and frees up my time.
6) OK in general I charge...
$250 and up for my daily shooting rate.
$150 and up for a portriat session
$200 for Sr pictures that includes some basic PP I have to at least put in the class year and name ( I batch it )
$700 and up for a wedding. ( Basic pkg: I shoot it, provide a high res CD, and 5 copies of Wedding DVD) This takes up about a day of shooting and maybe 6-8 hrs on he computer. I am very efficent on a computer.
$30 per hr post processing time
$$ the cost of printing for images plus about 25% for my time.
These works for me and what I do. I know it may now work for everyone else. Also I have just retired from the military so I get money each month if I ever pick up my camera or not.
I like to keep my rates affordable and that brings my customers back to me over and over again. They also refer people to me at a high rate.
D.

Message edited by author 2006-08-24 09:44:17.

08/24/2006 09:00:30 AM · #11

lild01 - So do you mind posting (or PM'ing) your prices? I'd like to see how that all works in actual dollars and cents.

That is a good thought about being fair to the customer. Just because 'this is the way it's always been' doesn't mean it's right or fair. I like the idea of letting the customers having there images, I just want to make sure it is fair to me as well - this is my only source of income and I gotta eat!

Anyone else out there have thoughts on this?

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon (Black)

08/23/2006 11:15:23 PM · #12

This reply is to WEE...

No giving the customer the rights to their image isnt a big deal to me. I have many gigs of images on my hard drives. And no one image means more to me then another. The images mean something to the customers. I just dont care what they do with them. This is what has never made sense to me.
The Old Business Model:

A customer dose not have to use me as a photogrpher. But becuase they like my work or whatever, they do choose to use me. I charge them for everything under the sun. Booking/sitting fees, hourly fees, gas etc, extra camera person fees. Then once I shoot everything I turn around and charge them very high prices for each individual image. Hell I can even charge them to make a album. An album that I can have designed online and drop shipped and never even touch. But I charge extra for that. Then to make matters worse... or better for the photographer. I charge even more for images down the road if the couple wants more prints down the line.

I Just dont think thats fair, or at least is outdated. People can and do see through that. I know alot of photogs dont like shooters that buck the system. But I am just that new wave of photographer.

If a customer uses my services. I charge a fair price to shoot it, and give them the freedom to do whatever they want with the images from that point on.

Have you ever bought a CD and made a copy for a friend ? Did you send money to the record label or ask for permission before you did it. Do you see where I am going with this. I pay for the music and then do with it as I like. As long as I dont share it with millions of people over the internet ( napster )

I dont begrudge people doing it the traditional way. I just see a change on the horizon and I am getting ready for it.

D.

Message edited by author 2006-08-23 23:17:36.

08/23/2006 10:09:40 PM · #13

Originally posted by lild01:

To Wee ag: you asked me...So how do you charge when you do portraits that aren't printed on the fly at the event? And how do you divide up charges for prints vs. skill and equipment?

I set a price for me to do the shoot. Be it a wedding a model shoot or whatever. That price pays me a fair rate for my time plus the use of my equipment. When the shoot is over the client gets the images. I can put on a disk if they like. Most times they take that disk and and pick the images that they want cleaned up. I then charge a price per hr of PP work. This is me being paid to sit in front of my computer and clean up images, design things etc. They then can have a high res disk of cleaned up images. At this point a choice has to be made. They can print on their own. Or I can do it for them. If I do it, I will add about 20- 30% to the price of printing for my time. This is not the model that most photographers use but it works for me. I am being paid for my time and skill each step of the way. The customer controls the the images and seems to be happy that way. Also I am not held up waiting for revenue down the line.

That is a very interesting model. So the whole 'you are losing the rights to the photographs!!!!' argument isn't that big of a deal for you?

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon (Black)

08/23/2006 07:07:12 PM · #14

08/23/2006 05:43:32 PM · #15

Originally posted by lhall:

This is exactly why I have stopped offering 4x6's to new clients. I had a client order a whole bunch of 4x6's, then recently was at their home and there was all these 8x10's of MY shots! I asked them what the deal was, and they said they just loved my photos, and scanned them and made enlargements for the whole family as Christmas presents.

Is this a "one-time" thing. NO. Lots of people around here do this, (and not just to me), and seem to think it's OK.

I am now only offering 5x7's and up. At least I'll get a little bit more money for those.

Linda

Yep, I see it all the time! My prices are low, and will go up a bit for next year and probably stay there. For portraits I have a 'sitting fee' and that includes a 'print credit'. The fee covers my shooting and PP time so if they buy only $50 in prints I'm OK - not as great as I'd be if they bought $300 in prints. What I see most photogs do is offer 'packages' based on 1 or 2 poses - similar comcept, to get minimum a bottom line per customer/sitting.

What I've yet to do much of is to have samples of all the stuff i can do/get that they (joe customer) can't get or get easily - wheaties boxes, leather folios, buttons, magnets, puzzles, mousepads, etc. These specialty items are increasing in accessibility to joe consumer, but can be an nice upgrade sale and they do set you apart from having pics made at walmart.

Remember, we are a luxury product, a custom creation. If they want cheap assembly line work, walmart and JCPenney are happy to give them that at $9/8x10 (or less sometimes).

I agree that times they are a changin' and photogs must change with them or suffer the consequences. Look at 'desktop publishing' and 'minute printers' - 15-20 years ago there was lots of them and now...none.

08/23/2006 05:34:40 PM · #16

I don't offer 4x6s - for two reasons.
1)IMO 4x6 is traditionally the snapshot size, so if they want that size they can take the pic themselves ;P I've not seen studios offer that size - it's always wallets, 5x7, 8x10 and bigger.

2) People (generally) spend the least they can, so if you offer $1.52 4x6 vs a $6 5x7 they'll buy the 4x6 cause it costs less. So you make $1.33 on a print and I make $5.50. Will I sell as many? Probably not, but I don't care. I've found what people want is not so much 10 copies of one image as 1 copy of 10 images - that's 10 times the PP work.

I do 4x6s for wedding proofs and occasionally for an event. Perhaps I'll offer them at the same price as 5x7 and see if they sell.

klstover

Panasonic DMC-FZ8

08/23/2006 04:47:29 PM · #17

lild01, I don't sell my work right now and I don't plan to do a lot of that in the future... I just wanted to say though, that your post was very thought-provoking for me and I'm going to store those ideas in my mind to think about later on if I want to sell stuff.

So, thank you for the post :-)

08/23/2006 04:28:43 PM · #18

Originally posted by lild01:

I charge for my skill and equipment seperate from any add on revenue from resale of prints. This is just my model the rest of you can do what you like. Just remember that the world is changing, so should you.

D.
//pbstudios.smugmug.com/gallery/1751984

So how do you charge when you do portraits that aren't printed on the fly at the event? And how do you divide up charges for prints vs. skill and equipment?

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon (Black)

08/23/2006 02:58:31 PM · #19

What alot of photographers seem to not understand is that the world has changed. Just as the music indstrudy had to change. So do photographers. The mystery of developing has been removed. No longer can we charge whatever we want and people will be stuck paying it, because they had no idea how to make a print. Now they can go to wal mart or print on their home computer and printer. So once they get the image most dont understand why the price per image has to be so high. For a better example. Before I knew how to change the brakes for my car I was willing to pay $85 for a front brake job. Now that I know how easy it is to do it myself I only pay $8.50 for the pads, $10 to turn the rotors and spend 1 hr of my time. For me the mystery isnt there anymore and I will never pay the $85 again.

Sadly enough its about the same for photography. When I shoot at a club yes I charge a higher price per print. I charge from $6-$8 per 4x6, But the people are really paying for the convience of getting the print instantly. WHat they do with the images from there dont matter to me. My point is I have already made my money up front.

I charge for my skill and equipment seperate from any add on revenue from resale of prints. This is just my model the rest of you can do what you like. Just remember that the world is changing, so should you.

D.
//pbstudios.smugmug.com/gallery/1751984

Message edited by author 2006-08-23 15:00:43.

debitipton

Canon EF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 II

08/23/2006 01:11:56 PM · #20

Originally posted by wee_ag:

Hmm, I wonder if having them sign a contract and making it clear that enlargements are not to be made would at least help (but surely not stop) that problem.

It only stops the honest people. Those with photoshop experience can/will remove a watermark if they are so determined. It's frustrating. At least if they are buying a larger print from you -- your making a little more money and they are getting a better scan of your work ;-P

LindaLee

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/23/2006 01:07:54 PM · #21

Don't know if a contract clause would stop that sort of thing, but it's not a bad idea. I am actually thinking about adding a "fraud" clause to my contracts to make it clear that copying my photographs is a fraudulent act.

One of the local camera clubs I belong to has been discussing this issue, and many think it's becoming important to point out (read that as "educate") to people that the act of scanning and copying "copyrighted" material is punishable by law.

08/23/2006 01:02:25 PM · #22

Originally posted by lhall:

Originally posted by mandyturner:
I sell 4x6's but I really don't like to. I have had customers buy all the 4x6 and then make thier own enlargements. ...snip...

This is exactly why I have stopped offering 4x6's to new clients. I had a client order a whole bunch of 4x6's, then recently was at their home and there was all these 8x10's of MY shots! I asked them what the deal was, and they said they just loved my photos, and scanned them and made enlargements for the whole family as Christmas presents.

Is this a "one-time" thing. NO. Lots of people around here do this, (and not just to me), and seem to think it's OK.

I am now only offering 5x7's and up. At least I'll get a little bit more money for those.

Linda

Hmm, I wonder if having them sign a contract and making it clear that enlargements are not to be made would at least help (but surely not stop) that problem.