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05/02/2002 04:48:53 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by rjhawkin:
Also I ask you to remember that: "You can please all of the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time. (by a president whos name I cant remember Ford or Kennedy maybe)"
That would be Abraham Lincoln, RJ.
* This message has been edited by the author on 5/6/2002 1:01:41 AM.
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05/02/2002 06:19:34 AM · #2 |
| it's not like anything even close to a large percentage of pics gets DQ'd. Why for all the hubbub? |
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05/02/2002 05:24:50 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
You must keep in mind that EVERY word we add to the description is one more that people will argue about, look up in the dictionary, and claim is too limiting or not limiting enough. I'm not trying to be cynical here... I'm just going by experience.
The whole DQ process is under review by Langdon and I. We'll keep you posted.
Drew
Drew and Langdon: I wish you luck. This site is a great idea and I think it would be best unless you need some kind of sponsorship to pay for the site to keep the prizes intangable. Though thats just a personal thought.
Also I ask you to remember that: "You can please all of the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time. (by a president whos name I cant remember Ford or Kennedy maybe)" |
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04/30/2002 10:12:49 PM · #4 |
You must keep in mind that EVERY word we add to the description is one more that people will argue about, look up in the dictionary, and claim is too limiting or not limiting enough. I'm not trying to be cynical here... I'm just going by experience.
The whole DQ process is under review by Langdon and I. We'll keep you posted.
Drew |
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04/30/2002 07:40:20 PM · #5 |
yeah, sonic, that sounds right. and yes, i care; i already answered the most visible threads so i started digging : )
Look, we're not imposing absolute moral law or anything by being specific about the wording of our challengesOriginally posted by sonicblis:
Oh. I've just realized that this thread is too long for anyone to care any longer. :o)
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04/30/2002 06:00:20 PM · #6 |
| Oh. I've just realized that this thread is too long for anyone to care any longer. :o) |
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04/30/2002 05:54:58 PM · #7 |
Wow. I had no idea I would incite a riot, and obviously this was not my purpose. It seems there are two questions.
Q1) Should shots that don't fit the challenge be DQed
Q2) Should shots that don't match my interpretation of the challenge get low scores from me (any voter)
A1) I don't think so. If my interpretation of the color red is for some reason green, then by all means, let me submit my green shot for red. Should that be disqualified. I don't think so. That's censorship of ideas.
A2) The idea is to portray the idea of the challenge in such a way as to communicate it's essence to the masses as effectively as possible. Obviously, if I see a green shot for red, then I'm going to say to myself, "That doesn't make me think of red much at all." Although the person taking the shot somehow sees red, his shot does not communicate that to the majority of people, as reflected by votes. That's the whole point. To vote on the shot that portrays the essence of the challenge to the most people while being technically good, and executed well.
Sound right? |
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04/29/2002 11:21:35 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Originally posted by irae:
[i]Include the words 'the camera must be pointed up' if that's a requirement.
What does the word 'up' mean to you?[/i]
Sure doesn't mean 'horizontal', yet I count at least 16 images in the current challenge where the lens was held parallel to the ground.
I see it in the requirement. We certainly have not disqualified anyone because they were on the "wrong ground" -- but there were images disqualified this morning that were absolutely in a perspective looking [i]down and 2 others that made neither an attempt at 'ground' (take that as you like) or up.[/i]
There's still a picture up of something on the ground, taken from above. You think it was taken with the camera lens raised above the horizontal? I don't really know how to take 'no attempt at ground', as I don't know what pics you're talking about, but are we disqualifying all the indoor images for being taken from the perspective of the floor up?
We ask our users to follow very few rules in submitting to the site, and I think it's unfair that everyone is forgetting that. The [i]challenge is the only thing that limits you in your submissions here, and each challenge should teach you something. That something should be in all submissions, else this would be just another boring photo-submit site. And we certainly don't think that this makes every shot cliche. [/i]
Me, either. My point is that the wording of the challenge is, as evinced by the posts on every challenge I've participated in here, too vague. It is possible to say exactly what the requirements are and still have a wide range of possiblilties. For this challenge, it seems the real requirement is 'an image taken from a low perspective with the lens raised above the horizontal'.
Still, we're listening to all of the opinions here and trying to figure out what to do about future challenges. For the current challenge, in fairness to photographers in the challenge and photographers who have been disqualified, we will be operating under the same guidelines throughout this challenge. Keep expressing your opinions -- we're obviously still a very young site, and we continue to develop it with those opinions in mind.
Again, much appreciated. I really hope that future disqualifications will be limited to submissions which are in confirmed violation of the site rules (copyright, post-processing, timeframe, etc., and not just an educated guess - the author of the image should be contacted and allowed to make their defence) or undeniably out of line with the challenge (a pure black frame for the 'red' challenge, for example). The voters here are narrow-minded enough to discourage anyone from getting anywhere near the gray areas.
Thanks,
E
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04/29/2002 03:22:11 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Stillwatch:
....Look, I'm not an idiot. And I'm not trying to be a smart alec. I'm just saying that you should be wary of other people's interpretations of what you write. You might say take a picture of a star. You'll think "outer space." Me on the other hand, since I'm also a musician, I think a rockstar. Take a picture of a cloud. You think sky, i think smoke. You see, there's soo many roads you could take. It's all a matter of personal preference really.
I too took a picture From the ground up and it was hamburger. Would I have been better to imerse my camera in the plate of food? I chose to make a pun on the words in the title. The way I thought about the shot was that everything on the plate was from the ground up.
It is your site and you have the right to disqualify anything you want, for any reason.
After thinking about it and the other discussions that have been going on for the last week. Id say that rather than have a disqualification just vote how you think the picture did. I was perfecly ready to get a low score and lots of strange comments. I look to art/photography to spark discussion and this will deffinatly.
---- You have now entered the Voter Baffelment Zone. |
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04/29/2002 03:11:24 PM · #10 |
I have agreed in this thread that a DQ on the basis of a misinterpretation of a challenge is not really a good thing. I am just one of those folks that like toi let the voters decide such stuff.
That being said, what about the word "perspective" is so hard to understand? Perspective in photographer lingo means vantage point. If the word "perspective" had been left out of the challenge phrasing then I could see all this confusion.
BTW, a perspective limit does not mean you automatically have to resort to cliches. I would like the next person who gets frustrated about cliches to show me an example of a picture they have taken that is a cliche and is good enough to show they have absolutely mastered this cliche to the point of never taking a better cliched photo ;-)
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04/29/2002 03:02:22 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by conceptgraphics:
I am starting to think this is a no win thread. While I agree that some people may have slightly different interpetations of any given challenge, this one seemed straight forward to me. However, I am still getting comments that others do not understand how my photo meets the requirements. I think from now on I will simply judge each photo by its own merit and allow those in charge to decide if it meets the specific challenge. I also think that from now on I will wait and start my voting process on Thursday after any disqualifications may have occured.
Amen to that.. The whole idea of "from the ground up" doesn't seem to mean that you have to be outside either... I keep getting the same comments on my picture "How does this meet the 'ground up' requirements?" Very simple. I layed down, on the GROUND, and took my picture with the camera pointing UP. Keep that in mind when your voting people, if the perspective of the picture is an upwardly one, then it was probably taken "From the Ground UP".
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04/29/2002 02:57:59 PM · #12 |
"up" that was one of the words in the descrition, yes. But then again, there are the other words. 'Take your best image from the perspective of the ground up' is what it says. So, if I had taken a picture of a "ground up' piece of meat, would that not be okay either? Just one big chunk of ground up meat. like you said, it has the word 'up' in it. and it is a perspective of the ground up. It's not a picture of the sky, but it is a perspective of the ground up meat. I look at the meat, it is my perspective. You cannot see me. People took pictures of the sky looking up. It was their perspective. There is no ground. Just the sky.
Look, I'm not an idiot. And I'm not trying to be a smart alec. I'm just saying that you should be wary of other people's interpretations of what you write. You might say take a picture of a star. You'll think "outer space." Me on the other hand, since I'm also a musician, I think a rockstar. Take a picture of a cloud. You think sky, i think smoke. You see, there's soo many roads you could take. It's all a matter of personal preference really.
I do appreciate you guys, and this site. I just think that you should be more open to what people might think. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. |
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04/29/2002 02:48:39 PM · #13 |
Drew and Langdon:
You guys are doing wonderful things with a thankless job! Despite all my whining, I love this site! Thats why I keep coming back. |
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04/29/2002 02:41:45 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by irae:
Include the words 'the camera must be pointed up' if that's a requirement.
What does the word 'up' mean to you? I see it in the requirement. We certainly have not disqualified anyone because they were on the "wrong ground" -- but there were images disqualified this morning that were absolutely in a perspective looking down and 2 others that made neither an attempt at 'ground' (take that as you like) or up.
We ask our users to follow very few rules in submitting to the site, and I think it's unfair that everyone is forgetting that. The challenge is the only thing that limits you in your submissions here, and each challenge should teach you something. That something should be in all submissions, else this would be just another boring photo-submit site. And we certainly don't think that this makes every shot cliche.
Still, we're listening to all of the opinions here and trying to figure out what to do about future challenges. For the current challenge, in fairness to photographers in the challenge and photographers who have been disqualified, we will be operating under the same guidelines throughout this challenge. Keep expressing your opinions -- we're obviously still a very young site, and we continue to develop it with those opinions in mind.
Drew
* This message has been edited by the author on 4/29/2002 2:41:56 PM. |
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04/29/2002 02:21:27 PM · #15 |
Your submission has been disqualified from the challenge "From the Ground Up" for the following reason(s):
This is not from the perspective of 'the ground up'. While your joke is well received here, you did not follow the rules of the challenge by using the correct perspective.
Sorry he he he. One more thing. I didn't follow the rules of the challenge by using the correct perspective. Does this mean I cannot have my own ideas? Must I really shoot the same boring cliches? Why can I not shoot something original? That image wasn't only a joke. It showed my own idea of 'perspective from the ground up.' |
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04/29/2002 02:09:53 PM · #16 |
I am thinking that the other 6 disqualification notices this morning were for my image. he he he he I don't think that's kewl but hey, whatever.
I'm not trying to be a whiny little girl here, I'm just saying, there are a few others that used a play off words as well, just to save their image, but yet they're still up. Just because my image was not a scenery image, shouldn't be means for a diqualification? So different have a different perspective of it.
Even if I got all 1's for votes, i would be happy because my image does show my "perspective from the ground up." You can see the plates under his left hand showing the process of making the burger from the ground up and also see the cooked meat from the ground up raw meat. Kind of a 2 in one. Oh well, if it's disqualified, then fine. But i just think those others should be as well. Mine was more of a comedic photo, but still. It's a different perspective from the ground up and I guess that's just a bad thing. |
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04/29/2002 01:26:34 PM · #17 |
| I am starting to think this is a no win thread. While I agree that some people may have slightly different interpetations of any given challenge, this one seemed straight forward to me. However, I am still getting comments that others do not understand how my photo meets the requirements. I think from now on I will simply judge each photo by its own merit and allow those in charge to decide if it meets the specific challenge. I also think that from now on I will wait and start my voting process on Thursday after any disqualifications may have occured. |
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04/29/2002 01:04:16 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by sonicblis:
'....One thing I noticed is that it seems many people misinterpreted transitions as being synonymous with contrasts....
Brother, if you think the 'transitions'challenge was misinterpreted wait till you start on the 'Ground up' submissions. If I voted only with my own interpretation of from the ground looking up and seeing the world from an ant's perspectivethen I would be pondering the diqualification option for some 45 entries (figure based on some 111 submissions this morning).
I think that there are others submitting here that have the same perception of the challenge requirement but obviously there is a very large 30% of us who have perceived it differently. Because of this high percentage it would be grossly unfair to disqualify anyone from this challenge unless it was clear that they had purposely cheated outside the rules.
Vin
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04/29/2002 12:31:41 PM · #19 |
"Take your best image from the perspective of the ground up."
Okay, what's wrong with this sentence? I'm all for the "take your best image" bit, but just what is the mysterious "perspective of the ground up"? Why not just say 'from a low perspective', if that's what you mean, or 'with your camera touching the ground'? Include the words 'the camera must be pointed up' if that's a requirement. I don't see it anywhere in the sentence above, but there are certainly some who insist on it. If you were flying in an airplane and looked down and saw me standing on my tiptoes , you might say to the flight attendant, "Look at that handsome futhermucker down there." And she'd say, "Where?" And you'd go, "Down there, on the ground." Your idea of what on the ground means would change if you were standing next to me (and you might not find me quite so gorgeous). One good check for meaning - try the opposite. What would you say was the 'perspective of the ground down'? It could be argued that the 'perspective of the ground up' includes anything that's not underground, taken from any angle which includes things above the ground, which opens up a whole new string of potential disqualifications for those shots of various stairways and tunnel exits. Fun, eh? I agree with cinnery that no photo should be disqualified on the basis of not complying with a challenge stated in such a meaningless way.
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04/29/2002 12:16:18 PM · #20 |
I feel really bad about photos being DQ'ed based on interpretation.
If a photo is clearly photedited outside the limits of the rules and can be proven then I am all for a DQ then.
But a poor interpretation as seen by a few should not be, by itself, grounds for a DQ.
What are we saying if we DQ based on a poor interpretation? Poor taste, poor technical skills, poor attitude, being poor :-) (meaning sucky camera's) is ok and let the votes filter them out but poor interpretation is not allowed to be filtered out by voting?
Overall I think the admins here are very good and it is their site so please don't hit me for disagreeing :-)
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04/29/2002 11:42:37 AM · #21 |
With regards to your specific entry, 2 of our 8 disqualification requests this morning when I woke up were for your image. Both administrators then agreed that the photograph did not meet the challenge criteria. I understand that you did not disregard the rules, so I apologize if you thought I was speaking of your entry -- I hadn't even noticed you were one of the ones disqualified this morning. Our disqualification system does not attach names/usernames to the photos until after they're disqualified.
"What I think they should be doing" suggests that I'm expecting 100 of the same images. This is far, far from the case. But this challenge was intended to be (and I believe was worded to be) a challenge of technique -- another method to add to your bag of angles and shots.
Drew |
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04/29/2002 11:34:21 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Certainly not. I think there's very little to interpret in a challenge at all, unless the wording of the challenge asks you to do so. For example, if the challenge is to take an outdoor macro, there's nothing to interpret. I felt the same way about the ground up challenge. It's not an interpretation of any of the words in the challenge you should be concerned with, it's a technique.
If, however, the challenge said to shoot your impression of transitions, you should certainly use your creativity and artistic skill to interpret 'transitions'.
I'm not entirely sure which part of my post you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's "But the idea of this site is to learn -- and we have to make sure people are sticking to the same criteria in that effort." What I mean by that is that if 100 people are struggling taking pictures from low angles and you're taking landscape without regards to the challenge, your image should not be allowed to compete with the others who followed the rules.
Drew
I understand what you are trying to say Drew, but you do not know that the picture I took was in total disregard of the challenge. It may look like that to you because you have your idea of what the challenge meant. And how do you know that there are 100 people out there specifically doing what you think they should be doing?
And if what you say is the case, don't you think that it should be up to one's peers to make that claim? How can you claim "rules" to one's perspective?
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04/29/2002 11:25:19 AM · #23 |
| I agree. One of my throwaways involved the smokestack on a riverboat cruise I took yesterday. I had to endure the comments I got for looking weird when I took the picture. My husband thought I really lost it this week too. |
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04/29/2002 11:17:14 AM · #24 |
Certainly not. I think there's very little to interpret in a challenge at all, unless the wording of the challenge asks you to do so. For example, if the challenge is to take an outdoor macro, there's nothing to interpret. I felt the same way about the ground up challenge. It's not an interpretation of any of the words in the challenge you should be concerned with, it's a technique.
If, however, the challenge said to shoot your impression of transitions, you should certainly use your creativity and artistic skill to interpret 'transitions'.
I'm not entirely sure which part of my post you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's "But the idea of this site is to learn -- and we have to make sure people are sticking to the same criteria in that effort." What I mean by that is that if 100 people are struggling taking pictures from low angles and you're taking landscape without regards to the challenge, your image should not be allowed to compete with the others who followed the rules.
Drew |
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04/29/2002 11:09:43 AM · #25 |
| So, the idea behind this site is not to learn how to shoot better digital photographs but to be able to interpret a challenge?? |
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