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10/10/2005 10:52:45 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Caine:
??? Banned ???
Eh, how's that then? I thought the US was all about "the freedom of speech" and all that, no? |
With the right moving further and further in that direction, it scares me that "freedom" of many things is slowly being diminished in the name of W's fundamentalist agenda. Look at what happened with FEMA - it isn't even it's own agency any more. All of the money is going to Homeland Security, which is a joke. When we needed FEMA the most after the New Orleans disaster, they couldn't do their job because they wee underfunded and ill equipped. The corps of engineers had been asking for more money for the past 6 years to help substantiate the levees, but they were turned down. Yet we can spend billions on a pre-emptive war. No wonder so many of us are disillusioned.
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10/10/2005 10:58:52 AM · #2 |
??? Banned ???
Eh, how's that then? I thought the US was all about "the freedom of speech" and all that, no? |
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10/09/2005 09:17:30 PM · #3 |
| Yes Caine, I highly suggest everyone watch "The Power of Nightmares", though as I understand its been banned in the US. |
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10/09/2005 12:10:41 PM · #4 |
| There was a show called 'The Power of nightmares' aired on this side of the pond a while back (check it out on torrents, it's still available). Explains the stance which the extreme muslim parties adopted throughout north africa and the middle east since WWII. It seems that the desire to return their society to a 'golden era' free from vice and corruption is the main driving tenet to their beliefs. Ironically enough it turns out to be the very same ideology which drives the Neo-Cons in the US. It just so happens that the religions being corupted in either case is different. Muslim in the middle east, and Christianity in the US. Important to note however that is is a corruption of these faiths, and neither side is adherring to the true values of their holy scriptures, choosing rather to oppress and control, and in the case of non-compliance murder. |
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10/08/2005 06:39:57 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I am curious why the WTC attackers who lived around the country and saw many Muslim Americans (many of whom own and operate their own businesses in my neigborhood, for example)prosper and practice their religions in peace could not associate this style of society as a positive?
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Because they did not see the American way of life as right or what they wanted.
There are a lot of Americans who do not realise that the American way of life is not the ideal to strive for and other nations have cultures and ideologies that are just as valid, albeit wrong or undesirable to US citizens.
P
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10/08/2005 03:06:08 AM · #6 |
Thankfully I DID read through all the posts in this thread, as well as a considerable amount of reading material, and news relating to worldwide terrorism throughout my life, especially that relating to my own nation in Northern Ireland, so I tried to post some well informed and justified facts.
:p ;) |
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10/06/2005 12:58:02 AM · #7 |
shamefully, i did NOT read through all the posts in this thread, but I would like to post an opinion.
These terrorist attacks are done by terrorists. I personally do not think it has anything to do with religion, race, region or any form of stereotypism (what a word). Its just a matter of bad people doing bad things and givig others a bad name.
I feel sorry for those who suffered loss. |
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10/06/2005 12:46:43 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
Religion is the costliest, most widespread, most dangerous, and most destructive untreated mental illness in the history of the human race, and at this time it is by far the biggest threat to the future of mankind. |
I dunno about that, since when it comes down to it, the vast majority of true religious teachings preach a view of tolerance, understanding and peace for their followers. Imo, it's actually the abuse of religion which is the costliest, most widespread, most dangerous, and most destructive untreated mental illness in the history of the human race, and at this time it is by far the biggest threat to the future of mankind.
None of the attrocities which are perpetrated in the name of religion are ever truly adherent to its genuine teachings. Rather it's the twisted and selective misinterpretations of certain sentences taken out of context from a holy text to further the selfish political aims of certain members of a religion which cause all the trouble. |
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10/06/2005 12:12:17 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by frychikn:
Religion is the costliest, most widespread, most dangerous, and most destructive untreated mental illness in the history of the human race, and at this time it is by far the biggest threat to the future of mankind. |
Here here. |
Talk about "MASS destruction..."
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10/05/2005 09:40:34 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
Religion is the costliest, most widespread, most dangerous, and most destructive untreated mental illness in the history of the human race, and at this time it is by far the biggest threat to the future of mankind. |
Here here. |
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10/03/2005 02:53:52 PM · #11 |
I am curious as too how Israel directly effects any society in the Middle-East...outside of the Palestian's (they got the shaft, big time)who were constantly rejected by their neighbors.
How does Israeli life effect the way The Saudis live, for example? Does Israel even effect the price of butter in Iran or Iraq or Kuwait?
I'm thrilled by the pull-out of Gaza but it doesn't seem to be wining too much peace. Perpetual misery, perhaps?
Message edited by author 2005-10-03 15:54:07.
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10/03/2005 02:38:19 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by rgo:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
The fanatics sure know how to brainwash their followers into believing that their interpretation of the religious doctrines is the true interpretation. Fear is a great motivator. |
Poverty and living on the wrong end of a social-injustice equation is the great motivator. |
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I'd might agree completely but that wouldn't explain Bin Laden...his Lieutenants or the many suicide bombers who are well to do.
I am curious why the WTC attackers who lived around the country and saw many Muslim Americans (many of whom own and operate their own businesses in my neigborhood, for example)prosper and practice their religions in peace could not associate this style of society as a positive? |
I did say there would always be well-to-do ideologues, but the best way to reduce their potential impact and influence is by trying to get the relevant society to have strong elements of equitable distribution and a strong sense of social justice.
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I know Americans are gluttonous but we aren't responsible for all the woes in the Middle-East. |
I don't think Americans are responsible for ALL the woes in the Middle East. But I do tend to think that some American policies, as well as some Middle-Eastern developments that have come to be associated -- rightly or wrongly -- with American involvement, over the years have exacerbated the conflict between Israel and Palestine, and in turn the Arab states, and perhaps in turn Middle-Eastern Muslim communities.
It is a fact that America maintains a strong economic, political and social relationships with Israel. Zionism, it has been strongly and logically alleged, is an ideal that has since its earliest conception incorporated the necessity for the removal of pre-existing Arab populations from Palestine. The lands that became Israel, after all, had previous occupants before it did become Israel. When Israel was established, something had to be done to make room for those who were to come.
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10/03/2005 02:24:11 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by rgo:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
The fanatics sure know how to brainwash their followers into believing that their interpretation of the religious doctrines is the true interpretation. Fear is a great motivator. |
Poverty and living on the wrong end of a social-injustice equation is the great motivator. |
]
I'd might agree completely but that wouldn't explain Bin Laden...his Lieutenants or the many suicide bombers who are well to do.
I am curious why the WTC attackers who lived around the country and saw many Muslim Americans (many of whom own and operate their own businesses in my neigborhood, for example)prosper and practice their religions in peace could not associate this style of society as a positive?
I know Americans are gluttonous but we aren't responsible for all the woes in the Middle-East.
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10/03/2005 02:09:57 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
The fanatics sure know how to brainwash their followers into believing that their interpretation of the religious doctrines is the true interpretation. Fear is a great motivator. |
Poverty and living on the wrong end of a social-injustice equation is the great motivator. The simplistic equation is: Give a person a chance to earn a decent wage, to have a decent family life and to own some material possessions = a greater likelihood that he'd not only tell a provocator to shove it, he'd also fight for what he has and anything that might come to threaten it.
There will always be the ideological fanatics, those who despite a comfortable social existence has found an axe to grind and a cause for which to die. But an equitable social condition is perhaps the best potential vaccinations against the effects of such fanatics being able to preach their hateful ideologies.
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10/03/2005 12:54:54 PM · #15 |
Preaching is one thing. Brainwashing is another. Yes, religion is the excuse fanatics use to gain power. The fanatics sure know how to brainwash their followers into believing that their interpretation of the religious doctrines is the true interpretation. Fear is a great motivator.
My edit in my previous post was just to make clear what I was saying and not to put words in anyone's mouth.
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10/03/2005 12:36:59 PM · #16 |
I am no fan of anyone that promotes their religion...in any way, shape or form. I would prefer if they ALL kept it to themselves.
It's all the same, in my minds eye...whether it's the Jehovah's Witness' or Al Ka-Seltzer. At least The Jehovahs Witnesses don't show up at my door with guns or bombs...they got that, goin for them.
In the case of Muslim Extremists it's more than just an excuse. They are very pure in their belief, they act and speak with unwavering certainty. I don't believe that they just want to kill lot's of people and are using religion as an excuse. There is some very deep conviction that motivates them.
Again, I never said that ALL promoters of religion are fanatics. Fanatics or not...I dislike religious promoters equally...but that's another discussion.
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10/03/2005 12:02:40 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Religion has been the root cause of so much death on the planet the numbers are immeasurable...unfathomable.
When dealing with faith, logic and reason go right out the door, to varying degrees. Tolerance is one of the cornerstone, issues on the table ...but who's not tolerating who? Again, I would suggest listening very carefully to what's being taught at the Madrasas and then you can have open and honest discussion on these issues.
Many people that I know as friends and co-workers or people that I deal with on a daily basis, would have been stoned to death if they'd lived in Afghanistan.
That thought never escapes my mind and I DON'T think that their (The Talibans) views are up for disscussion. |
Religion is being used as an excuse. It is not the root cause. The people promoting the religion (the fanatics) are the root cause. However, all they want is power.
edit: just to be clear - not all promoters of religion are fanatics.
Message edited by author 2005-10-03 12:07:54.
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10/03/2005 10:49:59 AM · #18 |
Religion has been the root cause of so much death on the planet the numbers are immeasurable...unfathomable.
When dealing with faith, logic and reason go right out the door, to varying degrees. Tolerance is one of the cornerstone, issues on the table ...but who's not tolerating who? Again, I would suggest listening very carefully to what's being taught at the Madrasas and then you can have open and honest discussion on these issues.
Many people that I know as friends and co-workers or people that I deal with on a daily basis, would have been stoned to death if they'd lived in Afghanistan.
That thought never escapes my mind and I DON'T think that their (The Talibans) views are up for disscussion.
Message edited by author 2005-10-03 11:29:36.
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10/03/2005 09:48:21 AM · #19 |
Eliminating something that a lot of people can't agree on isn't really a solution.
Religion isn't really the issue either. Power and lack of tolerance of other's beliefs is.
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10/03/2005 07:37:41 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by lowonenergy:
I think, if their wasn't any religion at all there wouldn't be such war / troubles going on as they are now...
To bad we can't do anything about that anymore
*Just my opinion* |
Religion is blamed for a lot of terrorist attacks etc but I believe that these attacks are political rather than religious. They just use religion as an excuse.
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10/03/2005 07:28:52 AM · #21 |
A little more reading on the theories surrounding the bombings in Indonesia (not just the 2 Bali bombs).
//www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/FAD/bali.htm
Although the link refers to the previous Bali bomb in 2002, it still goes into a little detail to try and explain the complexity and range of bombings which rgo mentioned. And it specifically makes the point that: "the various sources of conflict, political, criminal and personal, tend to become intertwined in a way that makes simple answers about motives and perpetrators very difficult to discern."
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10/03/2005 01:10:25 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by karmat:
Ummmm, if the bombings were for being in Iraq -- how long have they been there (Iraq).
Weren't there earlier bombings there (Indonesia). Like three in 2000? |
no they were in 2002 and these bombings were 2 weeks before the 3 year anniversary.
inbetween these dates we have also had a bombing of the Australian Embassy in Jakarta. |
I was referring to Indonesia as a whole, not just Bali.
Sorry if that was too broad a generalization. |
Major bombings in Indonesia:
1. 1 August 2000: Residence of Philippines Ambassador in Jakarta. 2 Indonesians died, and the ambassador was severely hurt. He was in his car, trying to make a turn to his home, when another car parked in front of his gates blew up.
2. 13 September 2000: Stock Exchange, Jakarta. 15 Indonesians died.
3. 24 December 2000: Churches in 10 cities. 16 Indonesians died.
4. 1 July 2002: At a mall in Jakarta. Killed one.
5. 12 October 2002: Kuta and Sanur, Bali. The blast in Kuta killed 202 people, mostly foreign tourists. But Indonesians make up the second largest group of casualties, after Australians.
6. 28 April 2003: Pipebomb at the airport. It exploded right outside the KFC outlet. 11 Indonesians died.
7. 14 July 2003: At the parliament complex in Jakarta.
8. 5 August 2003: At the JW Marriott Hotel in Jakarta. 13 people died, including a Dutch national, but most of the rest were taxi drivers waiting to pick up rides at the 5-star hotel.
9. 9 September 2004: Australian Embassy in Jakarta, killing 9 Indonesians.
There are a slew of minor bombings that killed one or two between 2000 and now in Indonesia. You just don't hear about those because they weren't dramatic enough, and no westerner was affected, therefore no media interest.
I was within 2 kms of number 1, 2, 7, 8 and 9, and on the scene within minutes of the event. You don't hear the blast as much as "feel" it. I was in Bali a day after the October 2002 blast. Regardless of whom was targeted, these bombings killed and MOST AFFECTED Indonesians.
70 to 80 percent of Bali's economy depends on tourism. Following the October 2002 blast, tourism arrival in November was at 9 percent of normal figures. Following this past weekend's blast, tourists fled Bali and no doubt, cancellations are happening now. The people who bear the brunt of bombings in Indonesia are Indonesians.
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10/02/2005 11:24:48 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by karmat:
Ummmm, if the bombings were for being in Iraq -- how long have they been there (Iraq).
Weren't there earlier bombings there (Indonesia). Like three in 2000? |
no they were in 2002 and these bombings were 2 weeks before the 3 year anniversary.
inbetween these dates we have also had a bombing of the Australian Embassy in Jakarta. |
I was referring to Indonesia as a whole, not just Bali.
Sorry if that was too broad a generalization. |
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10/02/2005 10:57:06 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by lowonenergy:
I think, if their wasn't any religion at all there wouldn't be such war / troubles going on as they are now...
To bad we can't do anything about that anymore
*Just my opinion* |
Religion is the costliest, most widespread, most dangerous, and most destructive untreated mental illness in the history of the human race, and at this time it is by far the biggest threat to the future of mankind. |
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10/02/2005 09:46:03 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Ummmm, if the bombings were for being in Iraq -- how long have they been there (Iraq).
Weren't there earlier bombings there (Indonesia). Like three in 2000? |
no they were in 2002 and these bombings were 2 weeks before the 3 year anniversary.
inbetween these dates we have also had a bombing of the Australian Embassy in Jakarta. |
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