My Duotone Photo - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

05/24/2003 01:52:59 PM · #1

This thread has become too much abotu discussing specific users and is now locked. Anyone wishing to continue discussion of the specific topics at hand (John's photo, and whether posting non-entries on the challenge topic should be permitted) are welcome to do so in a new thread, but discussions of the posting habits of particular users do not belong here.

-Terry

Message edited by author 2003-05-24 13:56:02.

KarenB

Canon EOS-70D

05/24/2003 01:45:21 PM · #2

There is nothing wrong with being honest to inspire someone to be better at what they do. However, provacative and confrontational stances are what bother me. A person can be honest without being superficially irrelevant. A person can also be honest and still maintain decorum.

Journey

Canon PowerShot G3

05/24/2003 01:39:26 PM · #3

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

Magnetic, i disagree with you. Paganini is one of my favorite people on this site. I respect his opinion - sometimes he's right on and sometimes he's totally off the wall. Doesn't bother me. What i like about him is exactly that he is confrontational and provocative. It's much better to be provoked than having this feel-good atmosphere that's rather meaningless and that really doesn't help anyone to get BETTER. Some of these forum threads here read like syrupy Hallmark Moments. To get a certain crappy score from paganini that's more meaningful to me than to get the same score from some beancounter because they didn't feel you met the bloody challenge or because the border isn't to their liking.

If debates with paganini get polarized then really all parties involved are to blame. I had a minor debate with him the other day about interpretation of nature and though he didn't change my opinion and i didn't change his, it did not end up as a shouting match. In fact, i enjoyed the little exchange.

If i were to get a 'that's vomit' comment from paganini, i wouldn't be so childish to complain to the Admins. But i would send him a lengthy 'WTF' PM :)

I remember the great polarizing debate about paganini's theory of voting (1 i don't like it - 10 i like it) and he gave excellent arguments to justify his position. The only problem (and it was THAT which created the polarizing debate) was that he brought home that most people here (and, very fairly, he didn't exclude himself!) really do not have the expertise to really, critically, judge pictures and aren't the discerning art critics that they would like themselves to believe. The truth hurts, doesn't it? :) The funny thing is, recently i have become very aware that i have unconsciously adopted paganini's voting scheme without the radical 1/10 scoring (and suspect that really everybody is doing more or less the same :) ROTFL

Message edited by author 2003-05-24 13:49:28.

05/24/2003 01:21:52 PM · #4

mk, most of what i said wasnt in response to GE. i know Paul and understand that he's a rational individual and have nothing but respect for him. anything i said in defense of john was to people much earlier in the thread who may not realize that we like and tolerate (hehe) john not because he has won a lot of ribbons but because he has a track record of being a helpful guy on this site.

anyone who has a track record of being helpful and good is going to get the benefit of the doubt FROM ME. Anyone who has proved they have no redeeming qualities on the other hand ... :)

Message edited by author 2003-05-24 13:23:23.

Annida

Olympus C-4000Z

05/24/2003 01:20:08 PM · #5

EXCUSE ME!

I'm the ONLY official site primadonna, thankyouverymuch.

-Da has left the building.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/24/2003 01:19:26 PM · #6

i agree with that .

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I have to say, though, that titling the thread "My Duotone Photo" rather than "Duotone Ideas" or something was predictably provocative...even if unintentional.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/24/2003 01:16:56 PM · #7

I have to say, though, that titling the thread "My Duotone Photo" rather than "Duotone Ideas" or something was predictably provocative...even if unintentional.

Message edited by author 2003-05-24 13:17:50.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/24/2003 01:12:41 PM · #8

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

After this thread, I think I should post that photo to the challenge just to give people the opportunity to punish me :)

That's OK, I think they'll have enough fodder with mine to satisfy their blood-lust... (hmmm...mixing metaphors...get more coffee...)

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

05/24/2003 01:12:15 PM · #9

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

I fail to understand why John should be restricted from posting his photography for comment simply because he's a good photographer. The whole tone of this thread suggests that good photographers should not be allowed to post because it might make someone else question the quality of their own work. I'd argue that questiong the quality of one's own work is the single best way to improve as a photographer.

-Terry

I don't think that was ever the point or tone until this thread disintegrated into a war between the pro-setz and anti-setz groups. Someone asked why GeneralE's opinion was not addressed in this thread as it was in others and he responded by saying that his opinion was the same across the board. He didn't name call or attack certain photographers. I don't even think he implied that John was "cheating" or "being sleazy" as was brought up in a few rebuttals. He simply said, in general, that it seemed to him that this sort of practice didn't follow suit with the DPC rules. In fact, he didn't even bring it into this thread until he was repeatedly encouraged to do so. I'm not sure why all these threads wind up about John and what's okay and not okay for John to do.

lionelm

Canon EOS-10D

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/24/2003 01:09:46 PM · #10

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

i disagree. he has been banned before for it, in fact.
this is a person with a history of confrontational and provocative personal attacks that are rarely, if ever, related to the topic at hand.
if i see him dragging down a discussion, i'm going to call him on it.
[quote=lionelm]the thing is :

- We know Paganini is not 'trolling'. People new to the site would not know .. and that's fine that they do not know.

I did not know that, sorry. When I look at his recent history .. true they are provocative and contreversial .. but he still leave comment on pictures. To me trolling is going into the canon forum saying canon sucks, or in a nikon forum and saying nikon sucks.
So to me he is not trolling even if he is putting oil on the fire.

so I guess I am in between now and not new ;-)

05/24/2003 01:07:58 PM · #11

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

No. This has come up. At that point we hide the thread and email a warning to the photographer. The voters also tend to do a pretty good job of telling the person what we think of the practice.

-Terry

There it is there. What is all of the fuss about?
Let's go take some pictures.

Oh by the way John, my impact wrench is a Chicago Pnumatic almost just like yours, so if I am real careful and have a little luck they might not know which is which.
Dick

05/24/2003 01:04:01 PM · #12

Originally posted by autool:

I have seen that done in the past, but what if I posted a picture and didn't tell anybody it was going to be entered. Nobody would know the difference, and then I could enter it. Would it then be DQ'd?
Dick

OneSweetSin

Nikon D3000

05/24/2003 01:03:37 PM · #13

I'm sorry but I really don't think that attacking anyone here is doing any good. I do however believe that if the challenge that is still in the submission state should not be discussed and photos shown by anyone who may be submitting to that challenge, with the exception of strictly helping others with techniques and ideas from the web not sharing attempts that we as individuals deem unworthy.

In the past I had an idea for a photo and was working on it when someone posted an outake of what they didn't use for the challenge and the idea was identical. By that person posting the photo I had to go back and redo mine cause I didn't want that copy cat issue later. I see nothing wrong with sharing a photo like John did but wait till the voting begins before you do that...you may not be the only one with that idea and you may just spoiled a photo someone else was going to use.

05/24/2003 01:00:46 PM · #14

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

You are right that it is not in the challenge rules, because we decided that we did not want to disqualify for posting in the forums, that would be an overly harsh punishment. However, moderators will edit or remove any post that reveals an individual's challenge entry.

-Terry

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

05/24/2003 12:55:49 PM · #15

Originally posted by autool:

Anybody that is in question on what a person may post to a forum should read the challenge rules to refresh their memory. I don't see anything in the rules that indicates that you can't post even your entry if you wanted to. It all boils down to the voting anyway,doesn't it? Oh, I guess a little common sense wouldn't hurt either.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

05/24/2003 12:55:04 PM · #16

After this thread, I think I should post that photo to the challenge just to give people the opportunity to punish me :)

05/24/2003 12:52:44 PM · #17

05/24/2003 12:49:46 PM · #18

i disagree. he has been banned before for it, in fact.

this is a person with a history of confrontational and provocative personal attacks that are rarely, if ever, related to the topic at hand.

if i see him dragging down a discussion, i'm going to call him on it.

[quote=lionelm]the thing is :

- We know Paganini is not 'trolling'. People new to the site would not know .. and that's fine that they do not know.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/24/2003 12:47:03 PM · #19

YUP. I *personally* think it's completely OK, with the qualifier that it's not to be used as an entry or similar to one's actual entry (i.e. i'm entering a bicycle but i also took some pictures of a zebra, so it's ok to share the zebra).

Why?

Because -

a) People have asked for feedback on works they've done in the forums for as long as I've been here, and no one has minded until now.

b) Just because you ask for feedback in the forums, doesn't mean anyone is going to give you any - although they might :).

c) asking for feedback in the forums isn't the same as getting to enter your pic in the challenge, get anonymously voted on by hundreds of people, getting assigned a score, and potentially winning a ribbon.

d) no one is forcing anyone else to look at your picture or read your forum thread.

e) at least for duotone, it could be a picture of ANYTHING in the entire world - from macro to landscape from animal to mineral. it's the toning technique that defines it, and it seemed like a lot of people had a lot of question about what to do.

Originally posted by carolee:

[quote=magnetic9999]i, personally, don't have any problem with people putting out pics related to the current challenge, as long as they are not to be entries or similar to entries. No matter who it is.

From a purely business standpoint, I think it makes sense not to allow even non-submitted photos in the threads until after the contest. If you guys REALLY think it's okay, "no matter who it is," then I, as a currently non-paying member, will go out and take some duotone shots and just post them here since I'm not eligible to enter them in the contest -- they definitely won't be entries. This week's challenge sounded so interesting that I almost signed up just to participate, but if I know I can post that photo here instead, why bother? That's wrong, I know, but you guys sound like you think that'd be just fine. There may be very good reasons to prohibit the practice, and some could be related to dollars and cents. Or does "no matter who it is" not include us?

lionelm

Canon EOS-10D

05/24/2003 12:46:19 PM · #20

the thing is :

- We know John rarely (if ever) want to put 'oil on the fire' , people more new to the site would not know .. and that's fine that they do not know.

- We know Paganini is not 'trolling'. People new to the site would not know .. and that's fine that they do not know.
Everybody can always go to the history of posting and comments of the person and look.As for the vomit comment, I would not have said it this way or I would have add a little more. But somehow it helps the photographer if 2 people thought the same things but wrote it different ways.

I am not trying to defend John or Paganini, they do it themself, they can handle it and it does not even have to be done.

Let's just not point fingers at people. It gets 'hot' pretty quickly.

"Carry the water and chop the wood"

Lionel

05/24/2003 12:35:27 PM · #21

05/24/2003 12:21:16 PM · #22

Reminder: Personal attacks are strictly prohibited. If they continue this thread will be locked.

-Terry

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/24/2003 12:14:33 PM · #23

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Discussing specific photos is clearly discouraged, even during the voting. Doing so before the voting starts seems inconsistent and unfair.

Discussin challenge entries currently up for voting is clearly discouraged. I see no such admonition on photography the poster has no intentions on entering to the challenge.

-Terry

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/24/2003 12:05:40 PM · #24

Originally posted by carolee:

I think the reason that they're kept secret is so that people are forced to think on their own, come up with an answer to the challenge without any hints. Which makes it more fun, and which is why I won't click the links to anyone's photos in the message boards until after the challenge is over. So my problem is solved -- if you guys want to look at challenge-related photos while the challenge is still going on, you may do better in the challenge for it. But I'd personally rather have a lower score and do all my own thinking about it and THEN see what everyone else did. I've definitely got the lower score to show for it, but the cliches I end up submitting are coming directly from my own head. :) That's why I enter the challenges in the first place. I can't wait to see how everyone's interpreted the assignment!

This is more what my original objection was about -- I was still working on a Matrix photo when people were posting their outtakes. But then, I don't necessarily like the posts which list all the possible challenge interpretations ahead of time either. While some folks want to look for inspiration, others want to force themselves to think more for themselves...and it's kind of frustrating to have your "original," clever idea posted by someone else for several to imitate.

At least when people post a link, I can choose to not view the photo. I think people should definitely refrain from posting (deep linking) the actual photos in this type of thread.

This is not about John or any individual; I don't think anyone is trying to cheat. But, I saw a change in the way the forums were being used which I felt inconsistent with DPC's stated policies and previous practices, and it was happening in a way which didn't allow for consideration or evaluation by the membership to see if the change was desirable.