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04/09/2005 01:17:43 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Artyste: Conversely, if one feels that they can maintain objectivity on voting for friends and family's shots that they've seen, (which I believe I can, I've given many a 4 and 5 to a person's shot I've seen beforehand and many higher scores as well, where they deserve it.), then I see absolutely no reason not to vote on it. After all, as you say, it's only a virtual ribbon. |
I don't trust myself... :-P
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04/09/2005 06:55:54 AM · #2 |
Originally posted by TooCool: Originally posted by TacoVendor: Have I given a higher score based on knowing that a particular picture belongs to someone? Yes. Has it been done for me? Not quite sure, but I believe it has. I can also truthfully state that it would have been done between me and one close friend that would see every one of my offline photos as well. |
My son is a member here. My best friend is a member here. I have a very strict rule. If I see my son's picture (which is highly likely since he uses my camera...) I do not vote on it. My best friend asks my advice all the time. I ask him also. If I see his shot I do not vote on it. I may comment on either one of their shots, but I do NOT vote on them. I ask the same of them. My son being only 12, and having limited access to the computer that is easy. My best friend, I rely on him to do the right thing and not vote on my shot. I believe he follows my wishes. If I didn't believe that he would to the right thing, he wouldn't be my best friend.
What is so hard? Do the right thing. It's only a virtual ribbon... |
Conversely, if one feels that they can maintain objectivity on voting for friends and family's shots that they've seen, (which I believe I can, I've given many a 4 and 5 to a person's shot I've seen beforehand and many higher scores as well, where they deserve it.), then I see absolutely no reason not to vote on it. After all, as you say, it's only a virtual ribbon.
Message edited by author 2005-04-09 06:56:52.
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04/09/2005 04:49:30 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by TacoVendor: Have I given a higher score based on knowing that a particular picture belongs to someone? Yes. Has it been done for me? Not quite sure, but I believe it has. I can also truthfully state that it would have been done between me and one close friend that would see every one of my offline photos as well. |
My son is a member here. My best friend is a member here. I have a very strict rule. If I see my son's picture (which is highly likely since he uses my camera...) I do not vote on it. My best friend asks my advice all the time. I ask him also. If I see his shot I do not vote on it. I may comment on either one of their shots, but I do NOT vote on them. I ask the same of them. My son being only 12, and having limited access to the computer that is easy. My best friend, I rely on him to do the right thing and not vote on my shot. I believe he follows my wishes. If I didn't believe that he would to the right thing, he wouldn't be my best friend.
What is so hard? Do the right thing. It's only a virtual ribbon...
Message edited by author 2005-04-09 04:55:46.
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04/09/2005 02:34:40 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by TacoVendor: ...the majority of getting the right photo is the photographers eye, not what is in his hands. |
Danny, thanks for the kindness and the cool conversation in this thread. No apology needed. Like most conversations, they head off where they will and our part is to enjoy the ride.
The Sony Mav has been a great intro for me into the world of digital photography. Unfortunately the memory stick/floppy disk adaptor I've was using broke, so if I ever did place in the top 10 I'd be DQ'd anyway. Takes all the pressure off the hunt for that elusive ribbon. I love your statement quoted above. Great stuff. All the best to you in your pursuit!
--David |
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04/08/2005 09:29:24 PM · #5 |
charliebaker,
I apologize for putting this up in this thread. I saw the topic title on the main page just after coming across yet another photo like I detailed above, and I thought it fit the subject perfectly. No disrespect meant to you or your thoughts.
On another note... yay Mavica users! I like your 'Benedictus' photo quite a bit. Good to see some decent things come out of cameras that are older technology than what typically does well here. I shows that the majority of getting the right photo is the photographers eye, not what is in his hands. |
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04/08/2005 03:56:28 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by autool: Wherever theres a will theres a way. |
Actually, the quote is, "Where there's a whip, there is a way!" |
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04/08/2005 02:25:01 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by charliebaker: Originally posted by Kylie: I personally meant to apologize to you for the high-jacking of your thread. You posted a great sentiment originally and I am partially to blame for things going down a different path. Thanks for yur good humor and patience!! |
No apology needed Kylie, but thanks for the post and the thoughts. I do get a kick out of point/counter-point DPC threads. I'm hoping the sun will break today so I can have a go at a really cool photo idea that came to me last night for the Free Study. Let's see now...where can I publically get the thing previewed? |
Do you think you can arrange to have it spotlighted on your local TV news and then have one of those call-in votes for the viewers???? LOL |
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04/08/2005 02:06:03 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Kylie: I personally meant to apologize to you for the high-jacking of your thread. You posted a great sentiment originally and I am partially to blame for things going down a different path. Thanks for yur good humor and patience!! |
No apology needed Kylie, but thanks for the post and the thoughts. I do get a kick out of point/counter-point DPC threads. I'm hoping the sun will break today so I can have a go at a really cool photo idea that came to me last night for the Free Study. Let's see now...where can I publically get the thing previewed? |
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04/08/2005 02:05:10 PM · #9 |
My current challenge entry in currently my highest score ever. I wish the voting would STOP now :) |
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04/08/2005 02:00:33 PM · #10 |
So lets get back to topic.
I am very frustrated... I want a ribbon
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04/08/2005 01:58:24 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by charliebaker: Originally posted by charliebaker: Anyone who makes the numbers game on DPC their leading joy in photography should quietly go out and shoot more photos. This site is not about numbers or stats. I'm glad DPC gives us plenty of both, but this site, plain and simple is about photography, taking and making photos.
So why are you still reading this post? Go out and make a photo! |
A note to the thread-hijackers: you guys crack me up! Let it go and go on a shoot for goodness sake. |
I personally meant to apologize to you for the high-jacking of your thread. You posted a great sentiment originally and I am partially to blame for things going down a different path. Thanks for yur good humor and patience!! |
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04/08/2005 01:52:01 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by charliebaker: Anyone who makes the numbers game on DPC their leading joy in photography should quietly go out and shoot more photos. This site is not about numbers or stats. I'm glad DPC gives us plenty of both, but this site, plain and simple is about photography, taking and making photos.
So why are you still reading this post? Go out and make a photo! |
A note to the thread-hijackers: you guys crack me up! Let it go and go on a shoot for goodness sake. |
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04/08/2005 12:16:00 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by skiprow: to continue the babykilling ;-)
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Babykilling? That's just wrong, skiprow.
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04/08/2005 12:06:04 PM · #14 |
to continue the hijacking ;-)
evidently, you can
Originally posted by canon rocks: quote
Originally posted by 300d: anything and anyone
Originally posted by go heels: that you want
Originally posted by nards656: I've been demoted! Who is nard526?? :) |
not sure
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but fictions
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may outlive their realities
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Message edited by author 2005-04-08 12:07:47. |
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04/08/2005 12:03:34 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by TacoVendor:
When an individual is putting their pictures up at a place for the simple reason of have a substantial group of people know who's is who's so that they can gather in more 9's and 10's (based only on who the image belongs to) then yes, I have an issue with it.
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Intent is so frustratingly hard to prove. If this is purely the actual intent, there might be a real Challenge Rules violation under this clause "Any attempts to alter the point totals in any way for any photograph will result in immediate loss of account and a ban from the site. " That might be reaching for a law to prosecute by, but there it is.
Anyway, as I've said, the rules might not completely agree with my personal beliefs on the issue, but they are the rules we work with, and they do a pretty darn good job, overall.
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 12:10:09. |
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04/08/2005 12:01:14 PM · #16 |
I've been demoted! Who is nard526?? :)
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 12:01:39. |
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04/08/2005 11:34:43 AM · #17 |
yes, bernhard, this is an old issue.
you are right, there is no way to logistically enforce it. it is NOT against any written rules anywhere on the site.
however, philosophically, there is a HUGE difference between sharing an image with your wife, or one or two others, and putting it on display in public.
in the DPC - POTD thread, you stated "I personally would NOT want to see non-challenge entries become a part of the front page. The entire site is about the challenge. I don't want to see something hokey like a POTD Council, or a site council vote, or anything that takes away from the front page being where the WINNERS of the CHALLENGE are seen." [my italics for emphasis.]
it seems to me that you would be interested in promoting some sort of self-policing that would promote the integrity of the challenges, rather than justifying something like this.
i'm eating some of my words, you've already addressed my last point
Originally posted by nard656:
By the way, I am totally (personally) opposed to posting challenge entries anywhere on the web either before or during the challenge in such a way that they are visible to the general public. Sharing with friends, family, mentors, and advisers for advice rather than to influence voting, I personally regard as a different issue.
I personally agree that influencing voting is not an honorable thing to do; my point was that I don't think it was ever found to be technically illegal or even definitively morally wrong. |
but, in the end, you are correct. this doesn't need a new rule, or a witch hunt. as long as individuals stay within the rules as written, they are free to do whatever they want to take better images and get higher scores, even if that means lobbying for votes. just because you are a member of buzznet or whatever, that doesn't make you guilty of anything, nor does it mean you are lobbying for votes.
edit: all ya'll type faster than me ;-)
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 12:03:33. |
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04/08/2005 11:28:28 AM · #18 |
By the way, I am totally (personally) opposed to posting challenge entries anywhere on the web either before or during the challenge in such a way that they are visible to the general public. Sharing with friends, family, mentors, and advisers for advice rather than to influence voting, I personally regard as a different issue.
I personally agree that influencing voting is not an honorable thing to do; my point was that I don't think it was ever found to be technically illegal or even definitively morally wrong.
Yep, Taco, good point about Tiger Woods AND the bounceback rule. Sometimes common sense should prevail, but in this case the letter of the law - I THINK - protects the buzznetters.
If you personally believe me to be an absolute idiot, that is indeed your privilege. AND IT MIGHT EVEN BE TRUE :)
By the way, this thread is officially hijacked... How does Site Council want us hijackers to compensate? I've forgotten the proper procedure! :) |
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04/08/2005 11:26:36 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by TacoVendor: A rule does not exist that says Tiger Woods can't take a tractor out to the Augusta golf course the day before the Masters starts so that he can trim the rough. |
On a lighter note, I think there is a rule against this...but to be honest, I know less about golf than I do about taxidermy.
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04/08/2005 11:12:53 AM · #20 |
nards -
I understand completely where you are coming from. I think the understanding here is that someone will likely see a submission before it is put in, and quite likely that there is discussion about how it should look, etc. I'll be right up front and say that I have participated in such activities but on a very small and personal scale - my wife and another member here.
I am also not naive to think that buzznet is the root of all evil in here either. It is just the one that stands out the most. As I have stated a couple of times now, just because someone is at buzznet does not mean they are doing this (or even have a clue about it). But the overt action of putting a photo up over there while voting is going on over here just so that the 'friends' know which ones to vote up is not proper.
Have I given a higher score based on knowing that a particular picture belongs to someone? Yes. Has it been done for me? Not quite sure, but I believe it has. I can also truthfully state that it would have been done between me and one close friend that would see every one of my offline photos as well. I expect that a majority of others here fall in this same category. Note: this does not mean I think it is completely right, but an admission of understanding that this is the norm.
A rule does not exist that says Tiger Woods can't take a tractor out to the Augusta golf course the day before the Masters starts so that he can trim the rough. Does that mean it would be ok? If so, then why doesn't he (or any other golfer) do that? Also, the golf rules say that if a ball hits someone in the gallery and bounces back into play, where it finishes is where it is played from. No rule exists saying that I cannot wait along side the fairway for a friend to hit the ball to me so that I can 'accidentally' knock it farther ahead. "If you personally believe this to be unethical, that's your privilege. IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES."
I know I started this here, but I will put my last words into it as I now am only repeating myself post after post in this topic...
When an individual is putting their pictures up at a place for the simple reason of have a substantial group of people know who's is who's so that they can gather in more 9's and 10's (based only on who the image belongs to) then yes, I have an issue with it.
Personally, if I see any of those photos that are being floated about over there on any of the upcoming challenges then I will mark them a 1. Is it against the rules for me to give a low score? "If you personally believe this to be unethical, that's your privilege. IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES." |
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04/08/2005 10:49:13 AM · #21 |
I'm not challenging anyone's right to argue this, but this is a VERY old issue, only three years ago it was a chat room, and now it's buzznet.
I'm pretty sure that the official conclusion was that there is no way to require a user to keep a picture anonymous. I know every picture my wife submits, and she knows mine. We are both registered, paying members, we offer advice to each other, we critique each other, we help each other.
If you personally believe this to be unethical, that's your privilege. IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES. Please don't accuse me, or the buzznetters, of breaking a rule that does not exist. Or even of breaking the spirit of a rule that does not exist.
Sounds a little like a witch hunt to me. "Oh, witches are not illegal? Let's make a new law." |
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04/08/2005 10:26:48 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere: Okay, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.... |
yeah, i guess so. you haven't convinced me that putting a challenge on display before and/or during the voting period is fair.
Originally posted by thatcloudthere: However, I think that indicting the dpc'ers on buzznet of 'popping each other a 10' because they're 'buddies' is low. |
didn't mean to come across as a wholesale indictment, and apologies to anyone caught in my gross generalization.
on the other hand, if the shoe fits, wear it.
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04/08/2005 10:25:27 AM · #23 |
Wherever theres a will theres a way.
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04/08/2005 10:22:23 AM · #24 |
Okay, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one....
However, I think that indicting the dpc'ers on buzznet of 'popping each other a 10' because they're 'buddies' is low.
Message edited by author 2005-04-08 10:23:11.
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04/08/2005 10:08:42 AM · #25 |
mike, it's real simple. i don't have to do the detective work for you. basically, if someone takes a picture and puts it in an online portfolio before and/or during the challenge voting, that completely eliminates the 'anonymous' factor, regardless of how many people see it.
and, when you do the math, if you have 10-20 friends who pop you a 10, that can make a huge difference in where you end up placing. |
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