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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Children without childhood?
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08/30/2002 01:03:02 PM · #1
Thanks for the comments on the picture. The picture was taken with my first digital camera that my grandson later dropped with the lens opened rending it useless. I used to let him take pictures of us now I don't. He is now seven, and for Christmas I will get him a cheaper digital camera for him to start out with.
08/30/2002 08:48:48 AM · #2
Love this shot it has kind of a postcard feel to it. But since I am in DPC here you go: I would have given it a 10 but I will give u a 7 because uuhhhh hhmmmm lets see oh yeah....Its too green!!

Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by bobgaither:
[i]critic on my photo in sig.com


That's a great shot Bob... I love how the sky and the ground kind of merge in the fog... And also how one side does that merge while the other side is a crisp horizon... Great shot.

[/i]

08/30/2002 07:33:06 AM · #3
That shot is very nice Bob. I like the pathway because it gives the viewer a sense of distance.
08/30/2002 02:00:01 AM · #4
TEST


* This message has been edited by the author on 8/30/2002 1:59:50 AM.
08/29/2002 11:03:34 PM · #5
Originally posted by bobgaither:
critic on my photo in sig.com

That's a great shot Bob... I love how the sky and the ground kind of merge in the fog... And also how one side does that merge while the other side is a crisp horizon... Great shot.

08/29/2002 10:33:17 PM · #6
So I guess everybody missed me from raising hell this week about the Childhood pictures. Oh, I wanted too but everybody else did a nice job on that? I wrote in one of these forums about taking a car accident picture, well I did but it was last week. I did a free shot from my car window outside the door as I was driving around the fireman putting out the fire on one of the vehicles. Would have been a nice shot for Candid, I guess those are the breaks. Anyway I want everybody to come and be critic on my photo in sig.com for I can't go a week without here from you. It was a photo I took lastwinter, //www.photosig.com/viewphoto.php?id=258678
Bob
another thing how do you put a blue hyperlink in this post?

//www.photosig.com/viewphoto.php?id=258678
08/29/2002 04:47:42 PM · #7
Originally posted by PhotosByAyme:
Originally posted by aelith:
[i]Originally posted by myqyl:


"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"

No joke...


I wish I could have made a picture of Tinker Bell and Peter Pan. I promised her I would never grow up.

aelith
[/i]

Hey that is too funny ... that was one of my outtakes for the childhood challenge ... i was too worried someone would knock me cause they were statues of children ... LOL


[/i]


This is what i am talking about!!!! People are submitting photos that they "WORRY" about what others woudl rate them as. I say, don't worry about it and submit what you feel is the best one, not what the ratings really meant.

08/29/2002 04:42:44 PM · #8
Neat Ayme, I hope you share next week. :)
08/29/2002 03:20:08 PM · #9
Originally posted by aelith:
Originally posted by myqyl:


"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"

No joke...


I wish I could have made a picture of Tinker Bell and Peter Pan. I promised her I would never grow up.

aelith
[/i]

Hey that is too funny ... that was one of my outtakes for the childhood challenge ... i was too worried someone would knock me cause they were statues of children ... LOL


08/29/2002 02:44:06 PM · #10
Let me make a clarification of why I complained about this (i think i am getting a very strong polarization of votes :) people eitehr love it or hate it): I wanted to create an image that is far from the "norm" of the typical American childhood, which is often as shown vividly in this challenge, full of commercialism (i thinkt ehre are several that shows a child wanting to buy toys, basically shots of a bunch of objects). Now, just because I entered a "dark" subject, that doesn't mean i didn't vote on photos that portray a "good" feeling. I am complaining because people voted simply on the basis of the photograph making them feel depressed :) which I think if that's the case, it's actually GOOD for me!

As far your comment about thinking of the viewer and the photographer, Ansel Adams was talking about people who doesn't think Nature photography has any place in the photography world early in 1900's. If everyone wanted to please the viewer, we wouldn't have Van Gogh who basically lived very poorly but whose paintings are now PRICELESS, we wouldn't have Picasso who during earlier years, no one understood his work.

Hey, if you want popularity -- listen to Britney Spears :) She sold millions of albums but I still wouldn't say she's an artist.


Originally posted by just-married:
Originally posted by Amphian:
[i]Originally posted by just-married:
[i]I think Mieka's point is you don't have to have had a happy childhood in order to make a photo of one


The only person you are ever sure will "get" your photo is you. If, despite negative experiences, you try to make a photo that captures happy experiences that may or may not mean something to you. If it does, more power to you. If it doesn't - if a piece of art doesn't at least speak to the person who made it, why bother to make it in the first place?[/i]

I hope you don't misunderstand. I would never suggest that someone make a photo that is meaningless to them. And I'm not even saying that I would suggest to those who submitted "scary childhood photos" to have done otherwise. My point is only this: in choosing to submit a photo that will not represent childhood to the masses, you choose to open yourself up to criticism and a lower vote.

That is not necessarily a poor choice -- it depends on your intention. If you are submitting to win, it was perhaps a decision that was less insightful. If you are submitting to evoke an emotional reaction from people, it is dead-on. If you are submitting in the hopes of receiving constructive critism, you should realize that you will get some along with some very emotionally driven criticism. Emotions can be very powerful and people may respond with emotion rather than helpfulness. And finally, regardless of whether your photo is happy/sad/scary, you should be aware that there are people who make very tight interpretations of each challenge, and therefore you will inevitably get some "does not meet challenge" comments/votes if you take a risk.

I'm not discouraging risk-taking. I am only saying risk-takers should be aware, and if they decide to proceed with their risk be open to what they get in return.

I don't think anyone expects one of the negative photos to win, but it sounds like some people are deliberately voting them down because they don't want to acknowledge what the photos represent. It would be just as unfair for me to say that positive photos fly in the face of my expectations, so I'm going to downgrade them all because I don't want to admit that childhood can be happy.


I am sure this is happening. I think it is happening both ways, and I think on such a emotive challenge it is unavoidable. Unfortunate perhaps, but unavoidable.

As for the comments, my opinion is and has been: ALL comments are helpful to the photographer. A comment such as "I hate this photo; what a stupid idea" is even helpful. It let's the photographer in on the reaction of a viewer. I'm not suggesting that it should evoke warm/fuzzy feelings in the photographer, but I am suggesting that they take it as the gift that it is: feedback. We can't grow without it.

"There are two people in every photograph: the photographer and the viewer." (Ansel Adams) I think as photographers, we sometimes forget the viewer.

k, this is long.
Dawn[/i]


08/29/2002 02:12:38 PM · #11
Here is my thought, if we exclude the "bad" childhood photos for not depicting a "normal" childhood that is suposed to be the "stereotype" of childhood, than we need to exclude the Christmas photos for all the little jewish kids who don't have christmas, and we need to exclude all the beach photos for the kids in Antarctica who don't have a warm beach, and we need to exclude all the truck photos for the little girls that didn't play with trucks, and all the doll photos for boys that didn't play with dolls. We need to exclude all photos that include milk for the lactose intolerant kids, and all the candy photos for the diabetic children.
You know all those little children you see on TV that pee in the same river they get their drinking water out of, their favorite toy is a rock, they don't have clothes and their little bellys are all pooched out cause they've got worms and are malnourished? I wonder what we would get a photo of if we handed them a camera and told them to take a photo of childhod. Do you think we'd get bears and candy and toys galore? Nope, probably not. I would actually LOVE to see what kind of photo we would get. I personally think it would be fascinating. I enjoy all the photos this week of different depictions of childhood, and I feel sorry for those who are blinded enough to think that every "childhood" is the same. Sure, we'd all like to believe it's all candy and dolls, but wake up folks...Sometimes the harsh reality is ringworm and piss water.
(I can feel the hate mail rolling in already)
08/29/2002 12:57:31 PM · #12
Dawn, You are making some very good points here. I agree with just about everything you are saying. The main thing I agree with is that "ALL comments are helpful to the photographer. A comment such as "I hate this photo; what a stupid idea" is even helpful. It let's the photographer in on the reaction of a viewer." That is exactly how I feel about it. In fact just last night, my husband was defending my submission against some of the comments I've received. I was defending the comments...lol I told him that the comments give me insight to how others perceive the image." To me that is a great thing. After all, not all of the voting public is mature, regardless of their age.




Originally posted by just-married:
Originally posted by Amphian:
[i]Originally posted by just-married:
[i]I think Mieka's point is you don't have to have had a happy childhood in order to make a photo of one


The only person you are ever sure will "get" your photo is you. If, despite negative experiences, you try to make a photo that captures happy experiences that may or may not mean something to you. If it does, more power to you. If it doesn't - if a piece of art doesn't at least speak to the person who made it, why bother to make it in the first place?[/i]

I hope you don't misunderstand. I would never suggest that someone make a photo that is meaningless to them. And I'm not even saying that I would suggest to those who submitted "scary childhood photos" to have done otherwise. My point is only this: in choosing to submit a photo that will not represent childhood to the masses, you choose to open yourself up to criticism and a lower vote.

That is not necessarily a poor choice -- it depends on your intention. If you are submitting to win, it was perhaps a decision that was less insightful. If you are submitting to evoke an emotional reaction from people, it is dead-on. If you are submitting in the hopes of receiving constructive critism, you should realize that you will get some along with some very emotionally driven criticism. Emotions can be very powerful and people may respond with emotion rather than helpfulness. And finally, regardless of whether your photo is happy/sad/scary, you should be aware that there are people who make very tight interpretations of each challenge, and therefore you will inevitably get some "does not meet challenge" comments/votes if you take a risk.

I'm not discouraging risk-taking. I am only saying risk-takers should be aware, and if they decide to proceed with their risk be open to what they get in return.

I don't think anyone expects one of the negative photos to win, but it sounds like some people are deliberately voting them down because they don't want to acknowledge what the photos represent. It would be just as unfair for me to say that positive photos fly in the face of my expectations, so I'm going to downgrade them all because I don't want to admit that childhood can be happy.


I am sure this is happening. I think it is happening both ways, and I think on such a emotive challenge it is unavoidable. Unfortunate perhaps, but unavoidable.

As for the comments, my opinion is and has been: ALL comments are helpful to the photographer. A comment such as "I hate this photo; what a stupid idea" is even helpful. It let's the photographer in on the reaction of a viewer. I'm not suggesting that it should evoke warm/fuzzy feelings in the photographer, but I am suggesting that they take it as the gift that it is: feedback. We can't grow without it.

"There are two people in every photograph: the photographer and the viewer." (Ansel Adams) I think as photographers, we sometimes forget the viewer.

k, this is long.
Dawn[/i]


08/29/2002 11:52:52 AM · #13
Originally posted by Amphian:
Originally posted by just-married:
[i]I think Mieka's point is you don't have to have had a happy childhood in order to make a photo of one


The only person you are ever sure will "get" your photo is you. If, despite negative experiences, you try to make a photo that captures happy experiences that may or may not mean something to you. If it does, more power to you. If it doesn't - if a piece of art doesn't at least speak to the person who made it, why bother to make it in the first place?[/i]

I hope you don't misunderstand. I would never suggest that someone make a photo that is meaningless to them. And I'm not even saying that I would suggest to those who submitted "scary childhood photos" to have done otherwise. My point is only this: in choosing to submit a photo that will not represent childhood to the masses, you choose to open yourself up to criticism and a lower vote.

That is not necessarily a poor choice -- it depends on your intention. If you are submitting to win, it was perhaps a decision that was less insightful. If you are submitting to evoke an emotional reaction from people, it is dead-on. If you are submitting in the hopes of receiving constructive critism, you should realize that you will get some along with some very emotionally driven criticism. Emotions can be very powerful and people may respond with emotion rather than helpfulness. And finally, regardless of whether your photo is happy/sad/scary, you should be aware that there are people who make very tight interpretations of each challenge, and therefore you will inevitably get some "does not meet challenge" comments/votes if you take a risk.

I'm not discouraging risk-taking. I am only saying risk-takers should be aware, and if they decide to proceed with their risk be open to what they get in return.

I don't think anyone expects one of the negative photos to win, but it sounds like some people are deliberately voting them down because they don't want to acknowledge what the photos represent. It would be just as unfair for me to say that positive photos fly in the face of my expectations, so I'm going to downgrade them all because I don't want to admit that childhood can be happy.


I am sure this is happening. I think it is happening both ways, and I think on such a emotive challenge it is unavoidable. Unfortunate perhaps, but unavoidable.

As for the comments, my opinion is and has been: ALL comments are helpful to the photographer. A comment such as "I hate this photo; what a stupid idea" is even helpful. It let's the photographer in on the reaction of a viewer. I'm not suggesting that it should evoke warm/fuzzy feelings in the photographer, but I am suggesting that they take it as the gift that it is: feedback. We can't grow without it.

"There are two people in every photograph: the photographer and the viewer." (Ansel Adams) I think as photographers, we sometimes forget the viewer.

k, this is long.
Dawn
08/29/2002 11:17:46 AM · #14
You are my friend Ms Grayce, I would never be offended by your words.
08/29/2002 10:50:57 AM · #15
Meika,
Of course I want to hear what you say! Your communication skills aren't failing. With all sincerity I think your perspective is just as valid as my own. If you felt otherwise it is MY inability to properly convey my thoughts.
I also had a difficult time depicting my childhood in a photograph. I was never locked in a closet, or beat, but I never had toys and family vacations either. Mine was just more serious than some. Both parents being alcoholics, the main dysfunction was neglect. I was required to be the responsible one, to keep peace, and order. To get and decorate the christmas tree, to babysit for neighbors so there would be presents under the tree. So I am consequently a somewhat serious person who can't help but side with the underdog. In fact my photo doesn't represent my childhood too much, but that of the less fortunate.
Mieka, I am sorry to offend you...truly. I have responded to other posts along this subject too. It is indeed a passionate subject and one that is a difficult one to discuss without emotion. My impulse at this moment is to give you a warm hug. I love people. Especially children, and feel compelled to protect those that hurt.

About scores...lol....I didn't expect mine to score well when I was entering it. First of all, compared to the talent here, my photographs don't usually score very highly. That's ok...I'm hear to learn. Most of my middle of the road scores are usually based on technical merit. I fall short still. But even with my lack of tech know how, my photo is provoking quite a response. That says something. Apparantly yours does too. I applaud your courage Meika! And thank you caring enough to explain.
Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. Please forgive me since it was not my intent.


08/29/2002 07:08:22 AM · #16
[b]Originally posted by just-married
it is the function of the photographer to elicit feelings of childhood in the viewer

I think this statement is interesting and highlights the problem of interpretation for many voters. The challenge says 'capture your impression', not try to pander to the (many) preconceptions of others. I mean, whose childhood memories would you aim your photograph at? There are so many, as this thread shows. What kind of photography/art would we end up with if we worry too much about feelings we will never even have access to? I think it's a mistake, and you have to be prepared to disappoint and offend a lot of people...and get lower scores on here. That's gonna happen anyway.

* This message has been edited by the author on 8/29/2002 7:13:10 AM.
08/29/2002 04:22:10 AM · #17
Originally posted by Amphian:
Originally posted by just-married:
[i]I think Mieka's point is you don't have to have had a happy childhood in order to make a photo of one


It would be just as unfair for me to say that positive photos fly in the face of my expectations, so I'm going to downgrade them all because I don't want to admit that childhood can be happy.
[/i]


Well just so you know, I think there are some people reacting that way if I may go by one of my comments. Good and Bad all the pictures are producing emotional triggers that is making it extremely difficult to be objective. I've never been locked in a closet but the artist's portrayal of it is excellent as a visual statement. The big teddy bear picture is also well done with it's warm lighting and open pose. After a certain age I collected dreams instead of toys but that picture makes me long for a big hug. See, it is so hard to keep yourself out of the judgment.
08/29/2002 02:14:12 AM · #18
Originally posted by just-married:
I think Mieka's point is you don't have to have had a happy childhood in order to make a photo of one

The only person you are ever sure will "get" your photo is you. If, despite negative experiences, you try to make a photo that captures happy experiences that may or may not mean something to you. If it does, more power to you. If it doesn't - if a piece of art doesn't at least speak to the person who made it, why bother to make it in the first place?

I don't think anyone expects one of the negative photos to win, but it sounds like some people are deliberately voting them down because they don't want to acknowledge what the photos represent. It would be just as unfair for me to say that positive photos fly in the face of my expectations, so I'm going to downgrade them all because I don't want to admit that childhood can be happy.
08/29/2002 02:12:13 AM · #19

I very much like what you have to say Ms Grayce and I thank you for allowing me to try to explain where my communication skills have once again failed me.
My childhood was far from perfect. I do not remember ever being a child as it is displayed here with toys and happy things all around. I have had a very difficult time trying to offer a picture that would represent childhood, not having any idea what it is. My frustration that you feel is pointing at ME, not at others on DPChallenge. I was expressing what I have learned by this challenge, not to blame it on my or your childhood if it does not display a childhood that is typical.
{don't) think for 1 second that pain is not understood by the rest of us." Although all people and mammals feel pain, we don't all feel the horrific pain that some feel. Some are subject to such terrible conditions and abuse, that most of us couldn't even imagine. Are we to silence their voices?
I hope to screem their voices louder than has ever been heard. I agree with your every word here Ms Grayce. Those of us who have always believed that horrific pain and hunger were a normal part of life have had no voice at all.

"If you choose to take a risk in the picture you enter, be prepared for the outcome." Yes I think you are correct in this statement. I takes a lot of courage to swim against the current. And it takes open minds to try to understand an image that is trying to make a statement.

Ms Grayce, I am the one I refer to here as having taken a risk with my photo for this challenge. I have tried to present a photo that represents CHILDHOOD, something which I have no knowledge of. I have given my photo a very different quality because my view of childhood is unlike any others.

Meika, don't feel like I'm picking on you. I just wanted to address your statements, which may very well represent the thoughts of others. I think what I say may also.

I truley love your thoughts here Ms Grayce, and I wish mor people would allow me to explain myself when I have not been clearly understood. Please let me know if I have made things even more difficult or if you better understand my thoughts today.
Mieka
08/29/2002 02:01:46 AM · #20
I think what we are seeing reflected in a lot of the voters who don't like the negative portrayals is what I predicted would happen. People are looking for their own childhoods in this challenge. They think, "Gee, childhood shouldn't be all dark and awful, and mine certainly wasn't. These people just don't get childhood."

Childhood is a vast range of experiences running the whole gamut from wonder and delight to powerlessness and fear. I can't believe that there is anyone here who didn't experience both ends of that spectrum at least once in their childhood, although the amount of time spent at various points on that scale is different for everyone. Can you tell me I didn't have a childhood or that I don't really understand childhood because I lived predominantly on the "fear" side? Doesn't that mean that people who lived predominantly on the "delight" side don't really understand it either?

For the record, I did not submit to this challenge.

My two favorite photos in the challenge are "Childhood Spent Locked in Closet, Rays of Hope" and "Carefree". The former is an emotionally (and somewhat physically) accurate portrayal of my childhood. Kudos to whomever had the guts to submit it. It won't do well in the score, but it made my hair stand on end when I saw it. This epitomizes for me the "powerlessness and fear" end of the spectrum, where as "Carefree" epitomizes for me the "wonder and delight" side. I gave both photos the same score.

I spent a lot of extra effort while voting on this challenge to not let my negative bias about childhood sway my votes on the positive pictures. For those of you who don't like the negative portrayals, instead of saying, "All you people who submitted negative portrayals should just expect to get crappy scores from those of us who want to see childhood as only sweetness and light.", you should try broadening your mind and realizing that the topic of childhood is not a True/False question with only one answer.
08/29/2002 01:51:23 AM · #21
Grayce,

I agree with what you said pretty much, but I understood Mieka's reference. There have been plenty of comments to the effect of "My childhood wasn't the cat's meow so don't expect my photo to be." I think Mieka's point is you don't have to have had a happy childhood in order to make a photo of one, so if you choose to photograph a representation of your own unhappy childhood you should be prepared for the fact that this might fly in the face of people's expectations and be scored accordingly. I agree with her and you.

The comment she made about understanding pain is I think based on the tone of certain comments which seem to say "just because your life's so great, ..." I take her comment to mean "just because your life was rough doesn't mean you have the corner market on pain".

Just trying to clarify my take on the thread.
Dawn
08/29/2002 12:50:24 AM · #22
Meika, I agree with you whole-heartedly on two points that you made[b]Originally posted by Mieka:
"We can not change our childhood, but we do have choices in the pictures we choose to enter for the challenge." No one could debate those statements, since they are obvious truths.

I am curious about the following statement though:

"If your picture is not doing well, please do not blame it on your childhood"
Maybe I missed something but I didn't read of anyone "blaming their childhood for a picture not doing well." Just because a person uses photography to portray an element of some childhoods, doesn't mean they are "blaming" their childhood, or even representing their own experience. Many children suffer immeasurable pain, not only in the US but around the world. Some artists choose to use their art to draw attention to social problems. Art's been used to enlighten us to the plights of wildlife, domestic animals, pollution and our environment, political theories, religion, starvation, domestic violence, homeless people, and more. So if the challenge was to photograph something that represents "Home" would a mother living in a car with her kids be accused of "missing" the subject, if someone posted a picture of them in a car? Would a child with bruises be "off subject" merely because it doesn't represent the subject as we know it? Unfortunately there are some pretty ugly truths that are going to be represented in photographs, and pop up in these challenges.

{don't) think for 1 second that pain is not understood by the rest of us." Although all people and mammals feel pain, we don't all feel the horrific pain that some feel. Some are subject to such terrible conditions and abuse, that most of us couldn't even imagine. Are we to silence their voices?

"If you choose to take a risk in the picture you enter, be prepared for the outcome." Yes I think you are correct in this statement. I takes a lot of courage to swim against the current. And it takes open minds to try to understand an image that is trying to make a statement.

Meika, don't feel like I'm picking on you. I just wanted to address your statements, which may very well represent the thoughts of others. I think what I say may also.


08/28/2002 03:00:42 AM · #23
Well don't get discouraged. I too got some odd comments. I had one fellow mark me down because he didn't like my title. Which is odd, because it seemed very self evident to a lot of others.

But really I'm not taking pictures for others, but for myself. I enjoy my work - even if someone else thinks it has no merit because of it's title or in your case because of what someone's expectations not being met. In the end your imagery is a tribute to you. Through this medium you are allowing us to see what your work is and how it was shot with with camera. We get to share what we think is powerful, with others.

It bothers me to, to get odd comments... but I think in the end... just try and focus on the reality that your work edifies you and that's what's important.
08/28/2002 02:59:30 AM · #24
We can not change our childhood, but we do have choices in the pictures we choose to enter for the challenge. If your picture is not doing well, please do not blame it on your childhood, or think for 1 second that pain is not understood by the rest of us. If you choose to take a risk in the picture you enter, be prepared for the outcome.
08/27/2002 08:57:21 PM · #25
No the Mary Martin version that was shown every Christmas while I was growing up is still very vivid in my mind. The only other version I have seen is the Disney cartoon. (not as good)
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