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01/18/2021 03:56:38 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by willem:
Originally posted by roz:
hey Willem ..
i would welcome your different perspective/theories .. as i dont like to think negatively of people ..
rather than send a pm i'll stick this in here .. as i know other ppl think like me .. and might benefit from a more positive take ..
and thankyou .. :) |
1) could be that participants make use of the full scale of available ratings to make more clear indication of their preferences, whereas participants use the top range, as result the average comes out higher. Using the full range is more helpful (leaving comment would be even better).
or 2) could be that non-partipants judge by overall appeal, whereas participants take into account more factors, specifically how well it meets the challenge. So their feedback would be more useful, but could come out lower.
or 3) could be that the avg of participants is lower because of a higher number of voters, i.e. they are more active, and as result the avg moves more the the mean. Maybe the rating of the non-participants is just caused by a very few voters.
As stated, these are just possibilities and not based on any analysis, not proven in any way. But they would indicate a more active involvement and effort to provide feedback, which would be positive.
Also note that there are plenty of challenge where the participant avg is higher or where the two are close.
I would therefore not make any conclusions about negative intentions of participants.
I propose to end further discussion and focus on leaving comments with challenge entries instead. |
thanks for the feedback .. much appreciated .. :) |
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01/18/2021 11:49:02 AM · #2 |
Originally posted by roz:
hey Willem ..
i would welcome your different perspective/theories .. as i dont like to think negatively of people ..
rather than send a pm i'll stick this in here .. as i know other ppl think like me .. and might benefit from a more positive take ..
and thankyou .. :) |
1) could be that participants make use of the full scale of available ratings to make more clear indication of their preferences, whereas participants use the top range, as result the average comes out higher. Using the full range is more helpful (leaving comment would be even better).
or 2) could be that non-partipants judge by overall appeal, whereas participants take into account more factors, specifically how well it meets the challenge. So their feedback would be more useful, but could come out lower.
or 3) could be that the avg of participants is lower because of a higher number of voters, i.e. they are more active, and as result the avg moves more the the mean. Maybe the rating of the non-participants is just caused by a very few voters.
As stated, these are just possibilities and not based on any analysis, not proven in any way. But they would indicate a more active involvement and effort to provide feedback, which would be positive.
Also note that there are plenty of challenge where the participant avg is higher or where the two are close.
I would therefore not make any conclusions about negative intentions of participants.
I propose to end further discussion and focus on leaving comments with challenge entries instead. |
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01/17/2021 03:00:28 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by willem:
Originally posted by roz:
Originally posted by willem:
Don't draw this into the extreme. Nobody was talking about hate, nobody votes to be unsupportive. Please assume everybody votes/comments with ones own preferences and with good intentions.
Also, there is a difference between voting higher/lower because it IS edited, or because it LOOKS edited. |
i applaud your positivity when the 'evidence' would suggest otherwise ..
taken from the most recent blue ribbon ..
Avg (participants): 6.4737
Avg (non-participants): 7.1250
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I don't think you can make conclusions about peoples intentions just from those two numbers. Without any breakdown, without any explanation by the voters, those are just two numbers. I can build several theories to explain the difference in a positive way but, without more info, those are equally unfounded and unproven.
I see in my statistics that my average vote cast is around 5.3 so what would that say about me? |
hey Willem ..
i would welcome your different perspective/theories .. as i dont like to think negatively of people ..
rather than send a pm i'll stick this in here .. as i know other ppl think like me .. and might benefit from a more positive take ..
and thankyou .. :) |
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01/17/2021 09:27:37 AM · #4 |
| I studied photojournalism for years at ICP mostly film, some digital. As I was schooled in the darkroom, even had my own for awhile, for all the years I did and do photography I am so afraid of Photoshop. We were never taught photoshop, I think because it distorts reality so I came to mainly use Lightroom, hence the reason I keep going back to DP Challenge to push myself to learn how to manipulate and my lack of knowing Photoshop is one of the reasons I don’t score well on this site. Photographers are truly artists making our points whether it be whimsical, calming or serious points. Either way photographers love to show their work. This platform gives us a way to show our work and see what others think. It gives us a scale of the choices in our control. Many of the images are presented as expression of our inner minds of what we are feeling at that time. Right now, during the pandemic photos are a sign of the times and how we are feeling about them. Sometimes a fairytale image is what we need to get out of our reality and I’m okay with it. |
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01/17/2021 05:06:13 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by roz:
Originally posted by willem:
Don't draw this into the extreme. Nobody was talking about hate, nobody votes to be unsupportive. Please assume everybody votes/comments with ones own preferences and with good intentions.
Also, there is a difference between voting higher/lower because it IS edited, or because it LOOKS edited. |
i applaud your positivity when the 'evidence' would suggest otherwise ..
taken from the most recent blue ribbon ..
Avg (participants): 6.4737
Avg (non-participants): 7.1250
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I don't think you can make conclusions about peoples intentions just from those two numbers. Without any breakdown, without any explanation by the voters, those are just two numbers. I can build several theories to explain the difference in a positive way but, without more info, those are equally unfounded and unproven.
I see in my statistics that my average vote cast is around 5.3 so what would that say about me?
Message edited by author 2021-01-17 05:14:06. |
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01/17/2021 01:10:11 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
Yes. I have entered standard editing photos in extended challenges, and feel they 'may' have been voted down due not being 'edited enough.' |
And the really sad part is that some really excellent extended editing shots, Landscapes especially, show no evidence that they have been composited of different elements meticulously blended.
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01/16/2021 07:13:04 PM · #7 |
Yes. I have entered standard editing photos in extended challenges, and feel they 'may' have been voted down due not being 'edited enough.'
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
There's a semi-official position on the issue raised in the first post:
Originally posted by semi-offical position:
The Extended Editing challenges exist to allow photographers who are into heavy manipulation of photos and multi-image compositing to post their creative work without restraint from our strictly photographic rulesets. As such, it's important to us that members who just plain don't "like" overtly-manipulated images should refrain from voting on these challenges at all, rather than skewing the results by voting up all the "straight" photos whilst voting down all the flights of fancy. If that's the way you feel, you shouldn't be voting. |
However, lots of voters (I'm one example) give very high votes to excellence within the challenge, wherever we find it on that scale. I am not going to punish someone based on where s/he falls on the "extended" range of the scale. From my perspective, my personal perspective, that's the way to do it.
I have, incidentally, equally little patience with those who automatically downvote images that don't seem (to them) "edited enough". The purpose of the ruleset is NOT to give the manipulators a sandbox of their own; it's to allow them to compete at ALL with the rest of us. Does that make sense? |
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01/16/2021 05:52:56 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by grahamgator:
I have tried painting and drawing and I am not very good at either (I am envious of Lydia’s skill, lol). |
Oh my word, Mary Ann! Pick someone else... someone with great talent to be envious of. I'm positive you could paint at least as well as I if you try! I have to copy someone else's work. I can't paint it from "real life". Plus, I've only painted about five things in my life.
But, golly! Thank you!! |
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01/16/2021 05:44:15 PM · #9 |
There's a semi-official position on the issue raised in the first post:
Originally posted by semi-offical position:
The Extended Editing challenges exist to allow photographers who are into heavy manipulation of photos and multi-image compositing to post their creative work without restraint from our strictly photographic rulesets. As such, it's important to us that members who just plain don't "like" overtly-manipulated images should refrain from voting on these challenges at all, rather than skewing the results by voting up all the "straight" photos whilst voting down all the flights of fancy. If that's the way you feel, you shouldn't be voting. |
However, lots of voters (I'm one example) give very high votes to excellence within the challenge, wherever we find it on that scale. I am not going to punish someone based on where s/he falls on the "extended" range of the scale. From my perspective, my personal perspective, that's the way to do it.
I have, incidentally, equally little patience with those who automatically downvote images that don't seem (to them) "edited enough". The purpose of the ruleset is NOT to give the manipulators a sandbox of their own; it's to allow them to compete at ALL with the rest of us. Does that make sense?
Message edited by author 2021-01-16 17:45:07.
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01/16/2021 03:13:25 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by willem:
Don't draw this into the extreme. Nobody was talking about hate, nobody votes to be unsupportive. Please assume everybody votes/comments with ones own preferences and with good intentions.
Also, there is a difference between voting higher/lower because it IS edited, or because it LOOKS edited. |
i applaud your positivity when the 'evidence' would suggest otherwise ..
taken from the most recent blue ribbon ..
Avg (participants): 6.4737
Avg (non-participants): 7.1250
anyway .. this conversation has evolved ..
and i see dpc as just a microcosm of the 'real' world ..
sometimes the blanket of anonymous-ness can engender behaviour that we would be ashamed to admit to publicly ... and we are all 'guilty' of it to some degree ..
in my own life i'm working towards being kind, compassionate and transparent .. and accepting .. there's always room for improvement .. which is a wonderful thing ..
i'm now sending everyone here warm understanding and happy thoughts .. xxx |
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01/16/2021 01:04:42 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
CAN you fix a crappy image with enough time and effort? Probably, but why would one? |
I do it when it's a "meaningful" image where there is no opportunity to take a "better" picture.
Some of my favorite images have been taken from a moving train, with one shot to shoot a scene not available any other way, often in conditions not ideal (usually need to under-expose to get a fast-enough shutter speed).
 There are other examples in that gallery and a detailed explanation of the process here. |
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01/16/2021 08:41:36 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
IMHO it would be polite to have this discussion when there is no extended challenge in voting. |
Maybe, 'cept what're the odds it'd come up without an image in voting that piqued the interest?
Besides, this convo in its many forms has been hammered around for years.
It's kind of funny in a way 'because often the same person that originates this thread ends up learning what an awesome tool that PS or its equivalent can be.
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01/16/2021 08:38:43 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by grahamgator:
Look at them or ignore them, vote on them if you want to, but don’t use voting to punish an image just because you don’t like manipulating photographs. |
This, in a nutshell.
Originally posted by Venser:
Why not?
We are asked to vote on the image before us, an entirely subjective endeavour. If one doesn't like manipulating photographs, is it not their prerogative to vote accordingly? |
It's subjective in that whatever you feel to the photog as to his/her ability to reach you, and meet the challenge with his/her creation.
But vote to the image as it meets the challenge in your eyes regardless of how it got there.
If you don't like manipulating photographs, don't, but don't punish someone else for it.
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01/16/2021 08:17:34 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by take-two:
It's more about whether it's still actually photography...
Extended editing should be just that, not a licence to combine mediocre photos into a fantastical image. |
First, you have to understand that editing, digital manipulation, and general photography skills all have to work together in order to create a "fantastical" image.
Your statement of combining mediocre photos into said fantastical images is simply dead flat wrong.
What it says is that you don't understand the basic premise of post-processing in that it can *NOT* fix a bad image.
Editing is for the refinement and adjustment of what you have and are trying to express in your image.
CAN you fix a crappy image with enough time and effort? Probably, but why would one?
Here's the thing. Like anything else, PhotoShop is a tool. Its use is only as good as the person wielding it.
I'm not a PS guy. I pretty much suck at it. But my limited skills do enable me to bring out what I saw in my mind's eye when I initially pushed the shutter button.
I do admire the heck out of what people do in extended editing because of the tremendous amount of skill and vision it takes to do what they do.
Please don't think for one minute that it's either easy or limited in vision to create some of the work that many talented members of this community are capable of creating.
Open your eyes and mind and learn something.
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01/16/2021 08:00:44 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
Originally posted by roz:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by grahamgator:
Look at them or ignore them, vote on them if you want to, but don’t use voting to punish an image just because you don’t like manipulating photographs. |
Why not?
We are asked to vote on the image before us, an entirely subjective endeavour. If one doesn't like manipulating photographs, is it not their prerogative to vote accordingly? |
i'm going to throw my 2 cents into the mix ..
etc
etc
.. and bringing with you a personal bias that contradicts the challenge .. i feel is unsupportive .. |
Thanks, Roz, I wish the voters would focus on what they love than on what they hate :( |
Don't draw this into the extreme. Nobody was talking about hate, nobody votes to be unsupportive. Please assume everybody votes/comments with ones own preferences and with good intentions.
Also, there is a difference between voting higher/lower because it IS edited, or because it LOOKS edited.
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01/15/2021 09:06:29 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by grahamgator:
Manipulating photography has been around since the beginning. Whether it is in the darkroom or digitally processed from raw on a computer, to me it is the same. I love photography and I love art and a combination of the two is wonderful. Photography, painting, sketching, drawing, writing, poetry etc., are all art forms. I have tried painting and drawing and I am not very good at either (I am envious of Lydia’s skill, lol). Sometimes I use photography to do the drawing for me so that I can make an art piece that in the end develops the image I have in my mind. Now, I know this is not everyone’s cup of tea, but so what, does it really matter. DPC allows digital art that uses “manipulated photographs” in a few challenges. Look at them or ignore them, vote on them if you want to, but don’t use voting to punish an image just because you don’t like manipulating photographs. There are some very talented photographers and artists on this site, and I applaud all of them. |
Thanks, Mary Ann, for the insight into your thinking. Creativity is very important in our lives, brings us hope and escape, gets us out of feeling depressed. Like you, I wish I could paint, do freehand drawings (I can do technical drawings though, I am a mechanical engineer by first qualification :), sing or play an instrument, but I can't, so photography is my way of "artistic" expression. These days I am also into "virtual" photography in 3D modeling and animation. I am learning software called Maya (a very steep learning curve!) and wish the Extended editing rules were "extended" to include any form of digital proof of image ownership, not just EXIF. |
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01/15/2021 08:55:42 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by roz:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by grahamgator:
Look at them or ignore them, vote on them if you want to, but don’t use voting to punish an image just because you don’t like manipulating photographs. |
Why not?
We are asked to vote on the image before us, an entirely subjective endeavour. If one doesn't like manipulating photographs, is it not their prerogative to vote accordingly? |
i'm going to throw my 2 cents into the mix ..
lets suppose they have a flower challenge .. but some people have a great aversion to flower photos ..
so they vote on the challenge with that mindset .. every photo they view they have a bad reaction to ..
so they vote accordingly .. and give relatively low votes even tho some of the images are lovely and creative ..
some people may have entered an image where the flower wasnt a huge element in the photo and this didnt disturb the ppl who didnt like flowers .. so they voted that one higher than the ones where flowers were major players ..
one would say that they have every 'right' to vote how they want .. but i feel they are voting with a bias already .. why vote in that challenge if they are going to vote down photos that totally satisfy the challenge and in some cases are quite beautiful ..
one thing that is unique about this site is the community .. i have found no other photographic site like it ..
and something this site has that seems to waning a bit .. is that we support and inspire each other ..
going into a challenge to vote .. and bringing with you a personal bias that contradicts the challenge .. i feel is unsupportive .. |
Thanks, Roz, I wish the voters would focus on what they love than on what they hate :( |
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01/15/2021 07:51:54 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by tnun:
we need a brussel sprouts challenge. |
There is actually one in the queue: it's been there for several years. I have, thus far, restrained myself from loading it into the breech. Is now the time? Hrmmmmmm :-)
ETA: I see Kirbic beat me to it :-) |
Shoot me now!!! =P
Just rename it LIttle Green Balls of Death or Devils Testicals
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01/15/2021 07:46:51 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by tnun:
we need a brussel sprouts challenge. |
Yes please. Queue that one to run right after "Water Spots". |
Or paint drying challenge
=P |
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01/15/2021 06:21:12 PM · #20 |
| IMHO it would be polite to have this discussion when there is no extended challenge in voting. |
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01/15/2021 05:34:57 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by willem:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by tnun:
we need a brussel sprouts challenge. |
Yes please. Queue that one to run right after "Water Spots". |
Extended editing ? ;-) |
Ahhhh, sure! Could be helpful.  |
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01/15/2021 05:24:11 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by grahamgator:
Look at them or ignore them, vote on them if you want to, but don’t use voting to punish an image just because you don’t like manipulating photographs. |
Why not?
We are asked to vote on the image before us, an entirely subjective endeavour. If one doesn't like manipulating photographs, is it not their prerogative to vote accordingly? |
i'm going to throw my 2 cents into the mix ..
lets suppose they have a flower challenge .. but some people have a great aversion to flower photos ..
so they vote on the challenge with that mindset .. every photo they view they have a bad reaction to ..
so they vote accordingly .. and give relatively low votes even tho some of the images are lovely and creative ..
some people may have entered an image where the flower wasnt a huge element in the photo and this didnt disturb the ppl who didnt like flowers .. so they voted that one higher than the ones where flowers were major players ..
one would say that they have every 'right' to vote how they want .. but i feel they are voting with a bias already .. why vote in that challenge if they are going to vote down photos that totally satisfy the challenge and in some cases are quite beautiful ..
one thing that is unique about this site is the community .. i have found no other photographic site like it ..
and something this site has that seems to waning a bit .. is that we support and inspire each other ..
going into a challenge to vote .. and bringing with you a personal bias that contradicts the challenge .. i feel is unsupportive ..
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01/15/2021 05:19:17 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by tnun:
we need a brussel sprouts challenge. |
There is actually one in the queue: it's been there for several years. I have, thus far, restrained myself from loading it into the breech. Is now the time? Hrmmmmmm :-)
ETA: I see Kirbic beat me to it :-)
Message edited by author 2021-01-15 17:19:54.
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01/15/2021 04:51:20 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by grahamgator:
Look at them or ignore them, vote on them if you want to, but don’t use voting to punish an image just because you don’t like manipulating photographs. |
Why not?
We are asked to vote on the image before us, an entirely subjective endeavour. If one doesn't like manipulating photographs, is it not their prerogative to vote accordingly?
Message edited by author 2021-01-15 16:51:53. |
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01/15/2021 04:49:07 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by tnun:
we need a brussel sprouts challenge. |
LOL, believe it or not it had been suggested and added to the list of challenge suggestions in 2014! Be careful what you ask for ;-) |
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