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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> How much in profit how much in prizes?
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08/09/2002 03:36:40 PM · #1
Originally posted by Journey:
(SNIP)
Perhaps D&L should consider another poll with more options so that they can gauge what people are willing to pay and for what type of services?


I didn't respond to the poll initially at all, because it really didn't explain what it was talking about. Those few people (CJ, JMS, D&L) may have talked about this in other forums, but as I am not privy to that information, I had really no idea what the poll was for.

As for my $.02 on a membership fee, I have no problem with that so long as it enhances the experience for those of us that choose to pay. I also have no problem with D&L recouping the money they have spent on this site, and even turning a small profit.

On the merchandising idea, initially this may involve more costs for D&L for building an inventory, certainly a lot more work and it might be quite a while before they start making any money from this avenue.

The company sponsorship idea sounds worth pursuing


On this one I have to agree completely. It may cost more to start it up, but I would buy a couple of things. This would be a good long term idea, since aside from something semi-tangible like a website membership, a mug or mousepad functions in some way as advertising to get more people on the site, and reminds the owner of the quality of the site from which the items were purchased.

-Steve

08/09/2002 12:16:46 PM · #2
Just a quick note to the site's creators. I have only been aware of this site for a few days, but I'm already hooked. As a web developer, I can only imagine the amount of time you have spent creating this wonderful resource. In my 7+ years of being on the Internet, I have never paid to join a site of any kind... but I would actually consider a reasonable fee to join this one. I especially like the notion of adding "member-only" features as suggested by Drew. Anyway, keep up the incredible work -- I have already learned a lot from reading the posts and viewing the photos and comments. This is simply an awesome site.
08/09/2002 12:12:11 PM · #3
Originally posted by Journey:
Clubjuggle, it seems to me very few people responding in this thread had any problem at all contributing to the cost of the site and compensating D&L for all their efforts. It seemed quite a few users though were opposed to paying for tangible prizes.

Perhaps D&L should consider another poll with more options so that they can gauge what people are willing to pay and for what type of services?

On the merchandising idea, initially this may involve more costs for D&L for building an inventory, certainly a lot more work and it might be quite a while before they start making any money from this avenue.

The company sponsorship idea sounds worth pursuing


Heheheh... You must have been snooping on my IM session. ;-)

There's a poll on whether and how to deal with prizes in the pipeline as I type this.

-Terry
08/09/2002 12:04:11 PM · #4
Clubjuggle, it seems to me very few people responding in this thread had any problem at all contributing to the cost of the site and compensating D&L for all their efforts. It seemed quite a few users though were opposed to paying for tangible prizes.

Perhaps D&L should consider another poll with more options so that they can gauge what people are willing to pay and for what type of services?

On the merchandising idea, initially this may involve more costs for D&L for building an inventory, certainly a lot more work and it might be quite a while before they start making any money from this avenue.

The company sponsorship idea sounds worth pursuing.

* This message has been edited by the author on 8/9/2002 12:07:59 PM.
08/09/2002 12:01:49 PM · #5
Since two people have now mentioned merchandising, I'll throw in my 2¢. Official DPC logo stuff (mugs, etc.) would be cool. A DAPrints-type setup where the artist and DPC split the profits from sales would also work well, especially if it did more than just prints.
08/09/2002 11:52:55 AM · #6
well said, terry.
08/09/2002 11:30:32 AM · #7
Another point I wanted to make on the personal satisfaction standpoint. Much of their personal satisfaction would probably come from providing us with something we find valuable. Keep in mind that even the highest rate mentioned, $40, works out to $3.33 per month (I'll pay more than that for a Guinness tonight) or 77¢ per challenge week (I'll pay more than that for my soda at lunch). Perhaps if people are deriving so little value from the site that nobody is willing to pay that small amount, their effors would be better spent elsewhere.

-Terry
08/09/2002 11:15:16 AM · #8
I want to preface this message by saying that it is being posted by ClubJuggle the user and not ClubJuggle the moderator. Any statements made here are mine only and do not represent an official position of or statement by DPChallenge. This should be assumed of all posts by all moderators unless we explicitly state otherwise, but due to the subject matter I thought that it bears repeating.

Now, on to our regularly scheduled message:

I think one point that has been missed in this thread is that free DPChallenge is NOT going away. Whether you choose to pay or not, you will still have access to a weekly challenge, as well as to the forums, tutorials and everything else you have now.

Drew and Langdon have some projects in the pipeline that will provide added value to members. These include some often-requested features such as critique forums and multiple weekly challenges. The idea is not to ask everyone to pay for what they've previously been getting for free, but rather to provide additional features that hopefully many people will find to be worth the cost. As a side point, though, I don't think Drew and Langdon should feel any obligation to continue to provide ad-free content to non-subscribers.

I know the topic of free software was brought up in this thread. I don't think that comparison is really appropriate here, since unlike writing software, a free web site of this magnitude requires the outlay of large amounts of money per month. As the site grows, it undoubtedly will expand beyond what Drew/Langdon could possibly afford to pay themselves.

I think the more important point, though, is that we really have no right to *expect* that they foot this cost themselves. Presumably we all derive some value from this site (if we didn't we wouldn't spend time here) so we should be willing to offer something in exchange for that value received.

As far as personal satisfaction, that is the primary reason D&L have spent so much time on this site. Realistically, memberships are not likely to generate enough income to come close to compensating them for the hours they've put into developement of this site. Hopefully, they'll generate enough to cover costs and maybe if they're really lucky have some beer money left over. They're almost certainly not going to be able to quit their day jobs and do this full-time.

One really good idea I did see in this thread was the idea of merchandising. While it almost certainly could not sustain the site on its own, DPChallenge tshirts (Kermi shirts for everyone!), mugs, mousepads and the like could generate a small amount of additional revenue and also help promote the site. Another idea I was pitching to Drew was a DPChallenge bookstore. This would be a way to highlight good photography books and include the opportunity for user reviews. Each book listing would include a link to buy the book, which could be done through a B&N or Amazon affiliate link. Again, this could not sustain the site on its own, but would be a potential source of revenue.

-Terry


* This message has been edited by the author on 8/9/2002 11:15:40 AM.
08/09/2002 05:49:58 AM · #9
Originally posted by floyd:
However, there is a sizable monetry cost to D&L to provide this free service (hosting, bandwidth, development software, development hardware etc). It's one thing to ask them to do work in their own time for free. It's quite another to expect them to pay out of their own pockets for the privilege.

As I said: I certainly would pay for bandwidth and server housing etc.

I also like the idea jeremya had about sponsoring from companys with a photography background.

Another possibility to make money which I've seen on other community websites is merchandising. That way users can support the website by buying stuff and still get something for their money. See //www.cafepress.com for one possibility. If I remember correctly the current rules allow that already but if asked I certainly would allow D&L to use my photos for printing them on mousepads, coffe mugs etc. to sell them.

08/09/2002 04:38:25 AM · #10
Stephan - It's great that you believe in free stuff. I love getting free stuff too.

Drew has already said that dpchallenge will continue to provide a free service as it does now.

However, there is a sizable monetry cost to D&L to provide this free service (hosting, bandwidth, development software, development hardware etc). It's one thing to ask them to do work in their own time for free. It's quite another to expect them to pay out of their own pockets for the privilege.

On a more general note - right now it's very very difficult to run free sites at break-even let alone make a profit. If you like free sites like this you'd better be prepared to take positive steps towards making it possible for them to make a little money. That means one of:

a) Paying for services at the sites you like most
b) Making voluntary donations to the sites you like most
c) Clicking banner ads on sites you like

I think it's clear that (c) is unlikely to work in the long term. (b) is already proven not to generate sufficient income. That only leaves (a) as a viable way for free sites to stay alive.

If you don't do any of these things then you are a freeloader. You provide site owners *no* mechanism to make any money to pay for hosting, bandwidth or their material costs (cost of development tools, hardware and so on). Remember that most banner advertising has gone pay-per-click now. You have to see the ad AND click on it for the site owner to get paid.

John

* This message has been edited by the author on 8/9/2002 4:38:03 AM.
08/09/2002 12:07:07 AM · #11
I agree with corporate sponsor ship... with 3000 users, that's 3000 guaranteed FUTURE customers... big $$$
anyways, I like the idea that the only reward for 1st place is the satisfaction that you know your picture was a good picture.
My little sister came in the room and her first question was "what do you win" - and I told her "nothing" - its for fun and growing as a photographer...

08/08/2002 10:44:21 PM · #12
Paying.... hmmmm.... well thats something I'd have to think hard about..
I was looking around at some other "pay" photo competition sites and was quite excited when I found dpchallenge for *free*. When you don't know how good something is I almost never pay up front. I don't think I am along here.

I quick background on me... I've formally studied Design and I have a personal interest in Internet Advertising.. basicly, I've seen one too many popup ads. ;-)

Here are my two sugestions for revinue generation for DPC:

1) Corperate Sponsership, many Camera companies spend a lot of money to run photography competitions... many spend millions on advertising... taking that 100% persent of the members on this site own or are interested in digital camera's and most will probably buy a new one (or accessories) in the next five years. Sponsering DPC would be much more cost effective than a full page spread in most magazines, because people like company's that are doing "something for them for free".
I personally take this into account when I buy a lot of products.
I am not necessary talking banner ads here...

As an example another free web comunity site with high traffic:
Look at www.k10k.net and see how Media Temple have sponsered them, they only have a few small logo's and sponsered by MT text, yet I'd say 90% of the long term users of this site know who MT is and only a small portion of the user would need to use MT for there comertial projects to make it worth MT's time.

Time to start ringing Cannon, Nikon, Minolta agfa,Fujifilm, etc Admin's!

I highly incorage the owners of this site to look at this option but I know it can be a hard sell as many company's do not value internet advertising as much as magazine advertising / sports sponsership..this is mainly due to the reports that internet advertising does not work... It does work but only when it's done right! and what I have suggested is the most effective way for a community site like this!

This my suggested "plan b" :

2)Keep the main competitions free but have periodic (Bi-Monthly?) Photography competition with prizes... this competition would ethier require a membership fee or entry fee.
This way people can still get the feedback and supportive environment to develop there skills without paying, this I see as very important for younger members (and there are some very young members.. ) and developing a successfull longterm open comunity.
I think the "member" competition would have a longer time frame and maybe more open themes. Prizes do not need to be much but niether do the entry fees.

Lets see... us$10 entry fee x 50 entry's x 6 times a year - (12prizes x x $100us prize value x 6 /year) = 3000 - 1200 = $1800us+ per year...
hmmm.... I think corperate sponsership is the better option.. say $10k per annum should do nicely ;-)
08/08/2002 10:39:35 PM · #13
we were kidding ...
Originally posted by stephan:
Also the example of only allowing paying members to submit squared photos is not good. I consider anything that makes the playing field uneven a bad thing. Everybody should have the same chances regardless of how much money they have in their wallet. It would be a little bit like if somebody could buy score points.


08/08/2002 10:23:17 PM · #14
This thread's getting old, but I just got on line. I have no problem with throwing some money in the pot for D & L and I hope they get filthy rich here:)) I do have a problem with prizes for the week's winners. I can see the whole feeling of the contest will change. As so many have said, there will be those who 'push' the rules, but the part I would like the least would be that helpful comments and the feeling of comradship would vanish. On another point, I like the idea of having a free part of the site and a pay part. If the content's good enough on that side, I'd do it.
08/08/2002 08:35:07 PM · #15
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think that some amount of profit for the site administrators is a good thing. If they have nothing to gain by doing this site other than personal satisfaction, what is to say that they wouldn't hang it up after some amount of time?


Do not underestimate personal satisfaction ;-) What keeps _you_ to vote, comment and post answers to the forum?

Anyway, if money is required to keep them then it's probably not a good sign. Just because they get money it doesn't mean that they'll hang it up if they loose interest or if there's something else which makes more money.


In my free time I'm a free software developer. Not only free as in beer but free as in freedom. The source code is free to everyone to read, use, modify and learn. I do it just for fun and for my own learning. I guess everybody has "side projects" or community work which we do for fun and not for money. I think half of the Internet consists of non-profit projects. So as I said: it's taking and giving.

I'm not saying Drew and Langdon aren't "allowed" to take money or it would be immoral or something like that. No, if they want money for themself then that's fine. It's just that I think that I'll probably not be willing to pay it.


08/08/2002 08:28:32 PM · #16
Wow, Drew/Langdon, everyone seems to be fighting, not about weather to give you guys money, but rather how much and how often. (Nice problem to have).

The way I see it:
If I go to the movies once a week, it runs roughly $7.00 per week in return for 2 hours entertainment per week. Of course there is the cost of transportation, travel time. Oh and compromise on the movie I want to see because it?s not what others want. Lets just for the sake of simplicity call it $7.00 a week. I?ll go ahead and pick up the sodas and popcorn. (Closed on holidays) this adds up to $1.00 per day or, $365.00 a year.

At DPChallenge I could conservatively spend 30 min. per day. Of good quality entertainment time. That is 3-1/2 hours of entertainment per week. Lets call it an even 3 hours a week. At the same cost per hour of entertainment value would be equal to $547.50 per year.

That sounds fair..... Who do I write the check out to?
A membership would definitely help to keep some of the rif/raf out of here.
(seriously, I hope the contests that offer prizes of any kind will be done supplemental to the existing format of the sight) L&D you've got a great thing here


* This message has been edited by the author on 8/8/2002 8:38:46 PM.


* This message has been edited by the author on 8/8/2002 8:44:58 PM.
08/08/2002 07:36:05 PM · #17
I really like the idea of doing something just for the fun of it. The rewards that participants get is priceless and should remain that way. I have learned more about the digital aspects of photography than I can begin to mention. I am sure that anybody that tries will learn from this site. I think that if prizes were added a lot of the "help" would diminish. Drew and Langcon deserve to get their reward from the site also, and they should be allowed to determine what that might be. I am for an annual fee, and I don't know why a contribution link couldn't be worked in also. That way if someone wanted to give a little at a time to fit their budget that would be okay too. If just a fee was charged it would probably cut down on the "hit and run" voters though. Thats my take on it. Autool
08/08/2002 07:07:01 PM · #18
I think that some amount of profit for the site administrators is a good thing. If they have nothing to gain by doing this site other than personal satisfaction, what is to say that they wouldn't hang it up after some amount of time?
08/08/2002 06:43:48 PM · #19
I'll try to describe my opinion about this.

Firstly I also think that giving out prizes with monetary value is not a good idea.

Secondly I think that a seperation into users who pay and user who don't pay is also not good. Allowing certain things or giving features only to paying members may create envy. Also the example of only allowing paying members to submit squared photos is not good. I consider anything that makes the playing field uneven a bad thing. Everybody should have the same chances regardless of how much money they have in their wallet. It would be a little bit like if somebody could buy score points.

I'm not sure if Drew and Langdon intended this (don't think so) but I wouldn't like it if the site is run for profit. This includes paying Drew and Langdon for their work. Please don't get me wrong. I absolutely appreciate their work. They did and do a great job. I'm addicted as anybody else here and because of this site I keep trying to improve my skills and take good photos. So it's also their work which make me do this and they can be proud of it.
But: It's also the users of this site who make this possible. Without them voting, commenting and posting the site would not work. And many users spend a lot of time here. So I see it as a taking and giving.

In short: I would pay for the bandwidth. I would pay to keep the site ads free. I wouldn't pay for extra features. I wouldn't pay for generating profit.

Personally I like the idea with the PayPal donations. This allows everybody to pay as much as they can afford. Everybody has different income and financial situations. Everybody values the site differently. So a solution which does not take a fixed amount from everybody would be nice.


08/08/2002 06:41:35 PM · #20
Originally posted by drewmedia:

We're trying to get everything together for a launch of the 'new' site... one of the new features will be the submission of any ratio photograph (with limits size limits). This will be available for all users :)

Drew


Woot! I cant wait! :)

John

08/08/2002 06:28:33 PM · #21
I also voted "No" on the prizes question (cuz I wouldn't win any of 'em anyway!), but would consider some sort of member support fees.
08/08/2002 04:17:39 PM · #22
does "any size ratio" mean square to you? do you pass for literate these days?
//clay.fuck.org/1152x1.jpg

* This message has been edited by the author on 8/8/2002 4:17:37 PM.
08/08/2002 04:15:15 PM · #23
does that qualify as square these days?
Originally posted by clay:
you might want to put size limits on that. people like me would submit a 1x1024 pixel photo


08/08/2002 04:12:00 PM · #24
you might want to put size limits on that. people like me would submit a 1x1024 pixel photo
08/08/2002 03:44:29 PM · #25
Originally posted by floyd:
How about letting paid-up members submit square photos?

<wink>

John


We're trying to get everything together for a launch of the 'new' site... one of the new features will be the submission of any ratio photograph (with limits size limits). This will be available for all users :)

Drew
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