Use of Filters under Standard Rules

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

07/13/2019 01:37:37 PM · #1

Originally posted by ThingFish:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by ThingFish:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
I will "not reward" an image in a non-expert challenge that does not look like a photograph, because I "hate" when people do that.

That's your opinion, so that's how you should vote. The problem was that in Thingfish's comment, he indicated that he voted low because he felt the editing done to that photo violated the standard ruleset.

Yes the problem is always Thingfish

Not saying you're a problem. Just that you misunderstood the voting rules.

Not misunderstood....wasn't aware :)

Fair enough. I'm sure you're not the only one.

07/13/2019 01:33:28 PM · #2

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by ThingFish:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
I will "not reward" an image in a non-expert challenge that does not look like a photograph, because I "hate" when people do that.

That's your opinion, so that's how you should vote. The problem was that in Thingfish's comment, he indicated that he voted low because he felt the editing done to that photo violated the standard ruleset.

Yes the problem is always Thingfish

Not saying you're a problem. Just that you misunderstood the voting rules.

Not misunderstood....wasn't aware :)

Message edited by author 2019-07-13 13:34:39.

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

07/13/2019 01:32:07 PM · #3

Originally posted by ThingFish:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
I will "not reward" an image in a non-expert challenge that does not look like a photograph, because I "hate" when people do that.

That's your opinion, so that's how you should vote. The problem was that in Thingfish's comment, he indicated that he voted low because he felt the editing done to that photo violated the standard ruleset.

Yes the problem is always Thingfish

Not saying you're a problem. Just that you misunderstood the voting rules.

07/13/2019 01:10:02 PM · #4

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
I will "not reward" an image in a non-expert challenge that does not look like a photograph, because I "hate" when people do that.

That's your opinion, so that's how you should vote. The problem was that in Thingfish's comment, he indicated that he voted low because he felt the editing done to that photo violated the standard ruleset.

Yes the problem is always Thingfish

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

07/13/2019 10:57:03 AM · #5

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

I will "not reward" an image in a non-expert challenge that does not look like a photograph, because I "hate" when people do that.

That's your opinion, so that's how you should vote. The problem was that in Thingfish's comment, he indicated that he voted low because he felt the editing done to that photo violated the standard ruleset.

MargaretNet

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

Sony FE 24-105mm F4 G OSS

07/13/2019 06:48:21 AM · #6

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

I will "not reward" an image in a non-expert challenge that does not look like a photograph, because I "hate" when people do that.

A lot of hate in the world now, sad.

JakeKurdsjuk

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM

07/13/2019 06:39:51 AM · #7

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:
When we look at the standard ruleset (and we've had discussions about this before) there is an utter dearth of guidelines with regard to how you may or may not use the features of your post-processing software of choice, and as I've been told before that is completely by design and that voters are to serve as the judge and jury as to whether or not the treatment of the photo falls within the guidelines when we vote. It's not written anywhere, but that has been the expressed wisdom of the SC whenever I've seen rules regarding various post-processing features comes up.

That's not what we've been saying, though. That's a terrible misunderstanding, possibly because we haven't expressed ourselves well.

We are leaving up to the voters whether they LIKE a certain effect or approach: we figure it will be self-regulating. If you do silly stuff you'll get no positive reinforcement, basically. It's not a matter of whether you, the voter think it's LEGAL or not, but of whether you APPROVE of it, see?

So if you see something happening that you believe is not legal, then by all means flag it and let us investigate, but in the meanwhile vote as if it IS legal.

Look at it this way: the problem with the earlier iterations of the Advanced ruleset was basically that they couldn't satisfy everyone, and in the end they satisfied nobody because there were glaring inconsistencies as if knowledge of the rules was some sort of arcane topic decipherable only by initiates or something. Now the rules are much simpler and it's just up to the voters to reward/not reward what they like/hate :-)

Maybe I've misstated it, but again there have been countless conversations here about the subjective nature of both the voting scale and what specific guidelines are around post processing software, and the consistent message has been that when it's not explicit in the rules then let the voters decide if they think it's proper for the challenge, and that's precisely what I'm trying to say. Maybe my use of "guidelines" and "spirit of the rules" makes you think I'm speaking of legality but I'm not. This place has a metric boatload of gray areas, like them or not, and I've learned to live with them. So to be clear, I will "not reward" an image in a non-expert challenge that does not look like a photograph, because I "hate" when people do that.

07/13/2019 02:45:15 AM · #8

Originally posted by Ja-9:

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by ThingFish:
..So I feel the Standard editing ruleset should maybe have some more specific rules about what is and what is not allowed. But that's just how I feel for what it's worth, maybe others feel differently.

Well, forgive me for saying so, but it truly is a case of "been there, done that." Specifically, there were seven different versions of Advanced Editing over the years, and with all of them we ran into problems with interpretation of precisely what a particular rule allows or disallows. The current rules were formulated to allow a wide latitude while remaining simple in their formulation. It's definitely a big step forward in clarity, IMO. And the greatly reduced amount of debate on "legality of such-and-such" seems to support that view.

Where is that damn "like" button!!!

Here.

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

07/13/2019 02:35:38 AM · #9

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by ThingFish:
..So I feel the Standard editing ruleset should maybe have some more specific rules about what is and what is not allowed. But that's just how I feel for what it's worth, maybe others feel differently.

Well, forgive me for saying so, but it truly is a case of "been there, done that." Specifically, there were seven different versions of Advanced Editing over the years, and with all of them we ran into problems with interpretation of precisely what a particular rule allows or disallows. The current rules were formulated to allow a wide latitude while remaining simple in their formulation. It's definitely a big step forward in clarity, IMO. And the greatly reduced amount of debate on "legality of such-and-such" seems to support that view.

I forgive you for saying so Kirbic :)
And now that I know that it has been discussed before and so on and so on and so on I am quite happy to leave it as such as well now that I have been made aware of whats been going on with regards to this ruleset. In fact I am actually in favour of it now as well after some reflection on the issue and Robbert explained it well when he said it's more a matter of whether one approves rather then whether it's legal or not and that one should vote as if it is legal. I did not start this post but only responded to Marnet who started it as I had been honest with her in my comment on her image in the "A Touch Of Yellow" challenge in explaining why I voted her image a 3 only. That was in response to her being unhappy that someone else had voted her image a 1. I also explained that I would have voted it a 7 if it had been under the Extended rules thus indicating to her that I did like and appreciate her image a lot for what it is and that of course is a beautiful piece of art. So if I had not responded to Marnet in the comments sections under her image no-one would have been the wiser that I had voted her image a 3 and no-one would have known why I voted her image a 3 either.
So in all honesty I was wrong to have voted it a 3 for the reasons I did but realise that I was not aware of this voting rule as I have not read the voting rules for many years now (my bad) and as I have not been very active on the site anymore in the past couple of years and have not been following all the in fighting on the forums anymore so I was not aware that there had been discussions about this topic for a long time already and that everyone had found peace with it and that it had been decided to leave it up to the voters. I only once in a while take out a month member subscription now and then partake in a few challenges and then stay away for months again. Like a binge drinker of sorts....a binge member. I have my reasons for that but I wont be going into that and I'm sure that nobody here is interested anyway.

Message edited by author 2019-07-13 03:12:27.

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/12/2019 10:49:34 PM · #10

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

When we look at the standard ruleset (and we've had discussions about this before) there is an utter dearth of guidelines with regard to how you may or may not use the features of your post-processing software of choice, and as I've been told before that is completely by design and that voters are to serve as the judge and jury as to whether or not the treatment of the photo falls within the guidelines when we vote. It's not written anywhere, but that has been the expressed wisdom of the SC whenever I've seen rules regarding various post-processing features comes up.

That's not what we've been saying, though. That's a terrible misunderstanding, possibly because we haven't expressed ourselves well.

We are leaving up to the voters whether they LIKE a certain effect or approach: we figure it will be self-regulating. If you do silly stuff you'll get no positive reinforcement, basically. It's not a matter of whether you, the voter think it's LEGAL or not, but of whether you APPROVE of it, see?

So if you see something happening that you believe is not legal, then by all means flag it and let us investigate, but in the meanwhile vote as if it IS legal.

Look at it this way: the problem with the earlier iterations of the Advanced ruleset was basically that they couldn't satisfy everyone, and in the end they satisfied nobody because there were glaring inconsistencies as if knowledge of the rules was some sort of arcane topic decipherable only by initiates or something. Now the rules are much simpler and it's just up to the voters to reward/not reward what they like/hate :-)

tanguera

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

07/12/2019 10:27:52 PM · #11

As Bear has pointed out, members voting should do so assuming the images is legal under the challenge rule set. If there is any question of legality, there is a very convenient link called "click here if you suspect a rules violation".

SC battled many months to tweak the Standard rule set to minimize gray areas, and leave it up to voters to decide to what extent they like filters, overlays, etc.

SandyP

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 200mm f/2.8 USM

07/12/2019 08:28:44 PM · #12

I loved Marnet�s image so much. It stayed with me long after clicking away from it. Thank you, Site Council, for reminding the voting body again to quit being the �legal editing police�, and learn to just vote on amazing art! I was shocked that this image wasn�t in the top 3.

Ja-9

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

07/12/2019 08:12:23 PM · #13

Originally posted by kirbic:

Where is that damn "like" button!!!

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

07/12/2019 07:46:19 PM · #14

Originally posted by ThingFish:

..So I feel the Standard editing ruleset should maybe have some more specific rules about what is and what is not allowed. But that's just how I feel for what it's worth, maybe others feel differently.

Well, forgive me for saying so, but it truly is a case of "been there, done that." Specifically, there were seven different versions of Advanced Editing over the years, and with all of them we ran into problems with interpretation of precisely what a particular rule allows or disallows. The current rules were formulated to allow a wide latitude while remaining simple in their formulation. It's definitely a big step forward in clarity, IMO. And the greatly reduced amount of debate on "legality of such-and-such" seems to support that view.

07/12/2019 03:53:18 PM · #15

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by ThingFish:

Ok right got it :) I must say I wasn�t aware of the rule that we must vote as if the image is legal and leave it to SC to decide if it isn�t, my bad :( That said though the fact that SC approves of this particular image does mean though that under Standard editing it is as allowed to use software manipulation to turn photos into art as much as it is allowed to do so under Extended editing. So maybe it will be a good idea then to add this ruleset to Standard editing as well then?
Would SC also allow it under Minimal editing by the way?

Under minimal editing even contrast adjustments are NOT allowed. Only desaturation, resizing and sharpening are allowed.

I know what's allowed under Minimal editing Gina so yes you are right SC won't allow it under Minimal editing as the ruleset for Minimal editing is very specific. That's not the case with the Standard editing ruleset and that's what I was trying to point out with my question about whether SC would allow software manipulation turning photo's into art under the Minimal ruleset. Obviously not. So I feel the Standard editing ruleset should maybe have some more specific rules about what is and what is not allowed. But that's just how I feel for what it's worth, maybe others feel differently.

Message edited by author 2019-07-12 16:26:04.

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

07/12/2019 01:27:38 PM · #16

Originally posted by ThingFish:

Ok right got it :) I must say I wasn�t aware of the rule that we must vote as if the image is legal and leave it to SC to decide if it isn�t, my bad :( That said though the fact that SC approves of this particular image does mean though that under Standard editing it is as allowed to use software manipulation to turn photos into art as much as it is allowed to do so under Extended editing. So maybe it will be a good idea then to add this ruleset to Standard editing as well then?
Would SC also allow it under Minimal editing by the way?

Under minimal editing even contrast adjustments are NOT allowed. Only desaturation, resizing and sharpening are allowed.

MargaretNet

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

Sony FE 24-105mm F4 G OSS

07/12/2019 09:23:08 AM · #17

Sorry for starting this thread! I forgot that the rules interpretation falls into the same category as "what is art" ;)

Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM

07/12/2019 09:07:56 AM · #18

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by ThingFish:
Well then that should be changed in the rule set.
For the benefit of other members here is the comment I gave on Marnet's entry:

"Just a question...I didn't give you the 1 by the way...I gave you a 3. The reason being that I don't see any mention under standard editing of being allowed to use any feature of image processing software to manipulate/enhance the images in your submission. That is allowed under Extended editing though. If I misinterpreted the rules please enlighten me."

Ps. Under Extended rules I would have given this image a 7

Fred, the voting rules specifically ask you to vote on an image under the assumption that it is legally processed. In other words, vote on the image itself, how much you like or dislike it. Leave it to the SC to take care of any questions of legality. You can always flag the image during voting if you think it is "illegal" and SC will look at it and make that determination. Thanks for understanding.

JakeKurdsjuk

Canon EOS R5

07/12/2019 08:45:18 AM · #19

I find myself agreeing with ThingFish's interpretation of the rules with regard to this image, but I also know that I see images like this make it through standard editing challenges all the time.

When we look at the standard ruleset (and we've had discussions about this before) there is an utter dearth of guidelines with regard to how you may or may not use the features of your post-processing software of choice, and as I've been told before that is completely by design and that voters are to serve as the judge and jury as to whether or not the treatment of the photo falls within the guidelines when we vote. It's not written anywhere, but that has been the expressed wisdom of the SC whenever I've seen rules regarding various post-processing features comes up.

Then I read the Voting Rules and see this listed as the first bullet point in what a person voting may not do: "give an entry a lower score because you believe it violates the Challenge Rules."

This leads to the question, did ThingFish violate the voting rules?

When I read his comment then he thought it violated the rules and gave it a lower score, so it was he who violated the voting rules even though the rule he thought it violated doesn't exist (call the thought police!!).

With that said, I didn't vote in this challenge, but had I voted you would have had a third 3. I do not mind the latitude provided within the editing rules with regard to post processing, but that doesn't mean I don't get to consider how much latitude was taken when voting - it's something we've been told we should consider because of it's absence. I have a lot of software at my disposal that can quickly turn a photograph into digital art with the click of a button. When I see more post processing than photograph in a Standard challenge it'll never get higher than a 4. I see Minimal and Standard challenges as photography challenges first and foremost and that factors into the way I vote, and obviously others as well. So the 1 here doesn't surprise me either because - but you don't have to be "a believer of old-fashioned 'taken in the camera' and untouched by any editing photography" to toss a 1 at it, you just have to have slightly less tolerance for this kind of manipulation in a Standard challenge.

And so I'm clear, I'm not saying anything specific about your image or anyone else who has been cast aside because an image wreaks of Topaz Studio filters (something I have and use often). I'm just explaining that because of the lack of specificity in the ruleset know that while you are well within your rights to push the boundaries of editing, folks like me have been encouraged to use our vote accordingly when we feel that it's beyond the spirit of the rules, so proceed with caution. :)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/12/2019 08:34:41 AM · #20

Originally posted by ThingFish:

Well then that should be changed in the rule set.
For the benefit of other members here is the comment I gave on Marnet's entry:

"Just a question...I didn't give you the 1 by the way...I gave you a 3. The reason being that I don't see any mention under standard editing of being allowed to use any feature of image processing software to manipulate/enhance the images in your submission. That is allowed under Extended editing though. If I misinterpreted the rules please enlighten me."

Ps. Under Extended rules I would have given this image a 7

Fred, the voting rules specifically ask you to vote on an image under the assumption that it is legally processed. In other words, vote on the image itself, how much you like or dislike it. Leave it to the SC to take care of any questions of legality. You can always flag the image during voting if you think it is "illegal" and SC will look at it and make that determination. Thanks for understanding.

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

07/12/2019 08:32:01 AM · #21

It's unfortunate that this issue still comes up from time to time. It's always been my understanding that when in doubt we're supposed to request validation but vote as if an image is legal.