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07/24/2017 09:29:17 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by snaffles:
... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ... |
Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter. |
Yeah...easy for you to say when you're not crouched down ringside, 50m away from the subject and there are a bazillion horizons in that pic. I was able to frame it up level enough so I wouldn't have to do it in post, cause that would be illegal, and shot....and even then despite finishing 6th in that challenge, I still caught flak for not including the rear hooves. |
Tough life being a photographer! :-D |
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07/24/2017 08:39:45 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by snaffles:
... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ... |
Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter. |
Yeah...easy for you to say when you're not crouched down ringside, 50m away from the subject and there are a bazillion horizons in that pic. I was able to frame it up level enough so I wouldn't have to do it in post, cause that would be illegal, and shot....and even then despite finishing 6th in that challenge, I still caught flak for not including the rear hooves. |
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07/24/2017 07:57:37 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Elaine:
It makes a difference for the challenge, but as a photographer isn't the end goal to end up with the image you envisioned? In that sense, it makes no difference how you get there. The only reason to master Minimal is to enter these challenges. |
Respectfully, no, not really, to both questions / statements.
A good photographer will know their tools.
1) Camera - its' settings, location of various controls / buttons, how to use AEL, flash, etc...
2) Ability to see with a photographers' eye.
3) After the capture - what then? Post process, print, frame, etc...
4) Ability to skillfully use software to make basic adjustments, up to fantastic creations of digital art.
If one was to search out literature (online or print) there are vast amounts of guides, resources, how-to's for pretty much all of the above "tools" that a photographer should have.
Examples:
Patterson - "Photography of Natural Things"
Peterson - "Understanding Shutter Speed"
Shaw - "Closeups in Nature"
Freeman - "The Photographer's Mind"
Ang - "Introduction to Digital Photography"
Handbooks for nearly all major cameras by several well known authors.
Guidebooks and how-to's on all major software applications (Photoshop, Lightroom, PSP).
Many, many, more ...
The point?
DPChallenge is about the challenge, competing, learning, on many aspects of photography. The challenges are there for fun yes, but IMO the different rulesets all present different opportunities for learning, especially the extreme bookends (Minimal and Expert).
* Minimal - Learning, and or illustrating, your mastery of the primary tool you have; your camera. Knowing what to look for before you press that shutter. It's not easy, and for some not even a fun exercise. That's ok.
* Expert - Here you need to have decent photos to start with and a vision for your end product. What is it you want to present? What's the best approach to gather the various photo collections you need to reach your vision? Good skills in the post-processing area will serve you well. It shows in the final product presented each month. Expert isn't for everybody either, and that's ok as well (yes, I really said that).
As to the statements quoted ... sure, you want to have a photo that you like. It's not always the end goal however - many photography exercises are for learning (example - take 10 photos within 50 feet of your back door; take a photo while zooming in on the subject; action photos; macro photos; flash photography ...). All of these exercises, including Minimal challenges, can be helpful if you look at them as a challenge and learning opportunity.
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07/24/2017 06:04:26 PM · #4 |
My $0.02 USD?
Keep minimal, post the ruleset as "In the spirit of the original Minimal concept", and let the voters decide the winners based on their perception of whether the entry is what it should be.
That way, the people who love Minimal and actively seek them out get their chance to have what should be pretty close to the spirit of the ruleset as it was originally before cameras became so complex. Make it an honor challenge in that you ask the entrants to really do this in a true, old-style DPC manner.
This way, the voters would be the guiding influence on the end result of the Minimal challenges, and remove the burden from SC.
Survey the concept to see if the idea would get any traction. Run it on a trial basis for a six month period with a survey at the end.
Crazy?
ETA: I'm not a big Minimal fan as I'm lazy and love to crop, sharpen, play with filters, desat, and other stuff, but every now and then I like to enter one just to push myself out of my comfort zone. I know there are quite a few folks that like Minimal and I think it would be sad to see it go. I do think that the in-camera availability of enhancements has truly hindered the original idea of Minimal.
Message edited by author 2017-07-24 18:07:51.
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07/24/2017 05:51:40 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Thinking out loud here:
Now that DPC will allow us to enter an oversize image and will automatically resize it to 1200 pixels, maybe we should just eliminate ALL post-processing post-download (no dust cloning, no sharpening, no rotation) and require entry of the actual full-size JPG WITH the EXIF appended :-) |
Wait? We could clear dust bunnies in Minimal?
... but otherwise, yep, I'd be for that change. However, it still wouldn't change the fact that we can apply a boatload of in-camera filters, special effects, etc... |
Right, that's my point; that's a hypothetical SOOC ruleset with no wiggle-room: if the EXIF doesn't show any modification, you're good to go. |
Perfect! Sign me up. |
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07/24/2017 04:50:38 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Elaine:
Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? ... |
Yes, actually, it does - if you're shooting for the challenge in the spirit of what "Minimal" means. That is to get the shot right in the beginning - as Robert pointed out earlier, to mimic the challenge of shooting like you did with film. |
It makes a difference for the challenge, but as a photographer isn't the end goal to end up with the image you envisioned? In that sense, it makes no difference how you get there. The only reason to master Minimal is to enter these challenges. |
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07/24/2017 02:25:37 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Thinking out loud here:
Now that DPC will allow us to enter an oversize image and will automatically resize it to 1200 pixels, maybe we should just eliminate ALL post-processing post-download (no dust cloning, no sharpening, no rotation) and require entry of the actual full-size JPG WITH the EXIF appended :-) |
You could try it once with a Minimal challenge and just flag as Extra Rules ... but it's probably gonna be a problem for those shooting in portrait mode if the site doesn't auto-rotate the image too ... |
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07/24/2017 02:15:02 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Thinking out loud here:
Now that DPC will allow us to enter an oversize image and will automatically resize it to 1200 pixels, maybe we should just eliminate ALL post-processing post-download (no dust cloning, no sharpening, no rotation) and require entry of the actual full-size JPG WITH the EXIF appended :-) |
Wait? We could clear dust bunnies in Minimal?
... but otherwise, yep, I'd be for that change. However, it still wouldn't change the fact that we can apply a boatload of in-camera filters, special effects, etc... |
Right, that's my point; that's a hypothetical SOOC ruleset with no wiggle-room: if the EXIF doesn't show any modification, you're good to go. |
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07/24/2017 02:05:07 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Thinking out loud here:
Now that DPC will allow us to enter an oversize image and will automatically resize it to 1200 pixels, maybe we should just eliminate ALL post-processing post-download (no dust cloning, no sharpening, no rotation) and require entry of the actual full-size JPG WITH the EXIF appended :-) |
Wait? We could clear dust bunnies in Minimal?
... but otherwise, yep, I'd be for that change. However, it still wouldn't change the fact that we can apply a boatload of in-camera filters, special effects, etc... |
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07/24/2017 01:47:36 PM · #10 |
Thinking out loud here:
Now that DPC will allow us to enter an oversize image and will automatically resize it to 1200 pixels, maybe we should just eliminate ALL post-processing post-download (no dust cloning, no sharpening, no rotation) and require entry of the actual full-size JPG WITH the EXIF appended :-) |
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07/24/2017 12:28:13 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Elaine:
Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? Does it really matter if a photographer chooses to spend more time getting everything "correct" in camera or to spend more time at the computer after the shot? Isn't the end result more important than the road chosen to get there?
When I see that a challenge is minimal, I automatically write it off. I don't usually vote on minimal challenges either, although when I have voted there have been some great entries.
My vote would be to do away with the Minimal category. |
and Elaine as queen |
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07/24/2017 12:24:08 PM · #12 |
I would like to see Minimal Editing limited to non-digital (film), pinhole cameras. (Yes, validation would be a challenge… )
Minimal Editing in its current form is an exercise in repression, I favor any pre-processing filters/apps that add options to the Minimal ruleset.
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07/24/2017 10:31:33 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by tate:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
As has been pointed out by SC, let the voters decide if something is "too much" or not. |
I tend to agree with letting the voters decide. Not only does that put the results in the hands of the community, it also takes some of the burden off of SC.
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I still think that we should change the name from "Minimal" to "SOOC". |
Does this mean you want to allow in-camera editing after the image is shot? I'm not sure I understand the reason for re-naming. |
Well, I'm not sure ... what would you suggest? I think submissions should be allowed with in-camera filters, etc... I'm not familiar with other edits outside of selecting various menu choices. Do some cameras allow in-camera edits such as cropping? I'd think that would alter the original ... I know it does on my phones camera (if cropped it shows as an edited version). I'd try to avoid that type of action in the rules if possible (kind of defeats my philosophy of getting the capture right on shutter release in regards to composition). |
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07/24/2017 10:18:17 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
As has been pointed out by SC, let the voters decide if something is "too much" or not. |
I tend to agree with letting the voters decide. Not only does that put the results in the hands of the community, it also takes some of the burden off of SC.
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I still think that we should change the name from "Minimal" to "SOOC". |
Does this mean you want to allow in-camera editing after the image is shot? I'm not sure I understand the reason for re-naming.
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07/24/2017 09:46:03 AM · #15 |
I still think that we should change the name from "Minimal" to "SOOC".
As has been pointed out by SC, let the voters decide if something is "too much" or not. Same goes with Expert challenges ... there are entries with barely any processing, and then you have the opposite extreme where the end product doesn't look anything like a photo anymore.
Same can apply to a SOOC challenge ... if the photographer chooses to use wacko in-camera filters that is their choice. How the voters respond is the equalizer. It's been that way in Minimal challenges for a while now ... slight in-camera filter use, etc...
Bottom line - the "Challenge" is to use your camera to the best of your ability as a tool. Know it's features. Know how to capture the photo correctly with proper composition. Get better at timing your shot if it's an action scene, etc... |
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07/24/2017 09:40:49 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Elaine:
Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? ... |
Yes, actually, it does - if you're shooting for the challenge in the spirit of what "Minimal" means. That is to get the shot right in the beginning - as Robert pointed out earlier, to mimic the challenge of shooting like you did with film. |
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07/24/2017 09:40:22 AM · #17 |
I think there is a difference between using a pre-processed jpeg in camera to meet the minimal ruleset and processing a photo after it's downloaded. It's ok if one uses an art filter to provide a desired result because all the thinking is done before the shutter is clicked. You need to know what your camera can do, compose, get the settings correct, etc... all before the picture is taken.
The problem with Georges image is solved by the voters, who didn't perceive it as improper white balance, hence the brown ribbon.
Message edited by author 2017-07-24 09:42:23. |
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07/24/2017 09:39:47 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Elaine:
Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? Does it really matter if a photographer chooses to spend more time getting everything "correct" in camera or to spend more time at the computer after the shot? Isn't the end result more important than the road chosen to get there?
When I see that a challenge is minimal, I automatically write it off. I don't usually vote on minimal challenges either, although when I have voted there have been some great entries.
My vote would be to do away with the Minimal category. |
Completely agree with your arguments here. Well said!! |
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07/24/2017 09:38:50 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by snaffles:
... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ... |
Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter. |
Except that you can't really plan a shot like the one  snaffles posted. By the time you check whether the horizon is level, the opportunity is gone. |
Again ... that's the challenge. Get it right (or get lucky) ... submit as an entry with the perceived flaw, or not. |
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07/24/2017 09:05:54 AM · #20 |
Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? Does it really matter if a photographer chooses to spend more time getting everything "correct" in camera or to spend more time at the computer after the shot? Isn't the end result more important than the road chosen to get there?
When I see that a challenge is minimal, I automatically write it off. I don't usually vote on minimal challenges either, although when I have voted there have been some great entries.
My vote would be to do away with the Minimal category. |
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07/24/2017 08:37:32 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by snaffles:
... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ... |
Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter. |
Except that you can't really plan a shot like the one snaffles posted. By the time you check whether the horizon is level, the opportunity is gone.
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07/24/2017 08:32:35 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Kroburg:
Skip Minimal Editing completely, than we don't have these kind of discussions anymore or ribbons/HM's taken from people because of change in data due to the way it was transferred from camera/phone to computer. With all the possibilities now in-camera or by use of phone apps, this whole 'minimal editing' thing is outdated and should be deleted from the editing rules. |
put this man to the top of the class and make him king too |
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07/24/2017 08:27:18 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ... |
Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter. |
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07/24/2017 08:00:20 AM · #24 |
I'm with  Kroburg, to be honest. It seems crazy to me that heavily processed images like Georges' would pass muster cause all that work was done in-camera, but if I were to enter an image like this  which, btw, IS a Minimal entry - and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon - then I get DQ'd for breaking a rule. Yet it's clearly a photo, and not a heavily processed one. And this is a competitive photography site, not a competitive illustration site.
I think Minimal ran its course a long time ago, like Basic did. For awhile I was all for keeping Minimal but if it's going to turn into a farce
Message edited by author 2017-07-24 08:01:06. |
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07/24/2017 06:24:26 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Kroburg:
Skip Minimal Editing completely, than we don't have these kind of discussions anymore or ribbons/HM's taken from people because of change in data due to the way it was transferred from camera/phone to computer. With all the possibilities now in-camera or by use of phone apps, this whole 'minimal editing' thing is outdated and should be deleted from the editing rules. |
... or, change the rule set to read 'SOOC' (Straight out of camera). There is still a skill to composing an image correctly from the get-go and having a photograph that is pleasing / worthy, without having to jump thru hoops in post-processing.
... or, just eliminate both minimal and expert and just run 'Standard' all the time. :-D |
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