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08/15/2015 07:39:59 AM · #1 |
The whole DQ debacle notwithstanding, the great thing about Christophe is the photography within the digital art. Take away that photography completely,or almost completely,and perhaps it isn't photography any longer. Perhaps its a new category.
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08/14/2015 11:04:06 PM · #2 |
Been watching this thread for awhile, and figured I'd weigh in... Truth is, I've always come to DPC to learn. So, let's reflect...
Here was my first Expert turd...  and here was my latest expert entry... 
So I've come along way with editing... and I owe a lot of that to the expert challenges and Gyaban, who has been a great inspiration for me to push the envelope...
Having said that, Here is the basic problem with the editing options... There's always ways around the rules. With my Shark cage entry, I built the entire background in photoshop, so it's not photographic at all (except for the rocks)... However, I took a shot with the lens cap on (ergo EXIF data) then painted it blue, used a gradient and blah blah blah... My point is... Since I used a photograph, does that make it photographic for you??? Of course not, because it was built entirely in photoshop but remember, the expert rules say you must use a photo (CHECK!) and you can use a full range of editing tools (CHECK!)...
The same problem is going to come up in the Minimal editing ruleset, when someone wins a challenge using a cell phone camera app with effects built into the app... Because after all, you can use "Any feature of your camera while photographing your entry..." My iPhone does a fantastic job of simulating an HDR effect, without combining multiple exposures... Welp, it's an effect built into the camera, so... Legal right??? but it clearly violates the spirit of the Minimal editing ruleset...
Brings me to my final point... For what it's worth, and I know very little :) , but, I'm completely against the DQ given to Gyaban... Particularly because he approached the SC about this and was given the Green light... And I quote, "Unfortunately, we misunderstood what Christophe was planning to do..." You misunderstood it, so it's a you thing... Why should he be punished? He outlined his plan, was validated on a previous challenge entry, and after using it again is being DQ'ed??? Sorry, but to be approached about it, have it validated on a previous entry, then in retrospect say, "Oh crap, we shouldn't be letting him do that" and DQ his latest entry, is flat out WRONG... The correct way to go about it is, to bar the software (and similar software) from future challenges with the warning that if it's used, will result in an automatic DQ... Just my thoughts, I know the SC has a tough job and I respect them greatly, I just don't agree with this ruling...
Message edited by author 2015-08-14 23:07:46. |
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08/14/2015 10:18:09 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by FromDaRock:
The Gyaban Mexpert Ruleset - Same rules as expert, unless your username is  gyaban, then it's minimal.
Originally posted by tate:
Someone needs to dream up a rule-set that makes it more difficult for him and easier for the rest of us ...
Get workin' on that ;)
Originally posted by Mike:
ETA, he is the poster child for what can be accomplished in any rule set if you really put in the effort. the more i think about it, he's graduated into getting his own ruleset, let him decide what his restrictions should be, he clearly doesn't need anyone else to tell him. |
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And he'd still best us. :) |
+1 (Still in awe of all you do....you too, Wendy) :) |
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08/14/2015 04:04:18 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by FromDaRock:
The Gyaban Mexpert Ruleset - Same rules as expert, unless your username is gyaban, then it's minimal.
Originally posted by tate:
Someone needs to dream up a rule-set that makes it more difficult for him and easier for the rest of us ...
Get workin' on that ;)
Originally posted by Mike:
ETA, he is the poster child for what can be accomplished in any rule set if you really put in the effort. the more i think about it, he's graduated into getting his own ruleset, let him decide what his restrictions should be, he clearly doesn't need anyone else to tell him. |
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And he'd still best us. :) |
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08/14/2015 02:27:41 PM · #5 |
The Gyaban Mexpert Ruleset - Same rules as expert, unless your username is gyaban, then it's minimal.
Originally posted by tate:
Someone needs to dream up a rule-set that makes it more difficult for him and easier for the rest of us ...
Get workin' on that ;)
Originally posted by Mike:
ETA, he is the poster child for what can be accomplished in any rule set if you really put in the effort. the more i think about it, he's graduated into getting his own ruleset, let him decide what his restrictions should be, he clearly doesn't need anyone else to tell him. |
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08/14/2015 12:19:56 PM · #6 |
| I respect what you say Christophe, you already know that I'm no big fan of the expert rule set and the images it produces, it's easy for me though just to avoid that side of things and I do. I do think though that DPC should cater for all tastes and it certainly should cater for the highest scoring types of images like the ones you produce. |
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08/14/2015 11:41:29 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Mike:
he's graduated into getting his own ruleset |
All the compliments about my stuff in this thread are very flattering, you are all too kind. I am really delighted when my work trigger strong reactions (especially when they are positive!), so I thank you all very much.
That being said, I am not leading any sort of campaign here. I wanted to explain why and how I felt the need for my own workflow to evolve, while complying with DPC rules (well, I was mistaken about that apparently). I do realize that my approach to photography is not the usual one, and I do understand why passionate photographers can hate it. Let's be honest, I do suck at many photographic fields: there are many photos that I love (including DPC ones), that I can only look at, without any hope for me to create something half as interesting. The whole
instantaneity of photography is way beyond my abilities. I know, I've tried: it was pathetic. So it is easy to understand why some of those artists consider me as a hack (or any other word of their choice).
I remember that a few weeks ago, after some complains about 'expert editing' in the forums, I answered something like 'if you hate it, feel free to avoid it completely and let those who are interested having fun' (not literally, but it was the overall meaning). Symmetrically, if DPC decides that it should exclusively focus on things I'm not going to do, well, so be it. There is no point in spoiling a whole party just to suit a few weirdos sitting in the back. |
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08/14/2015 10:59:41 AM · #8 |
Someone needs to dream up a rule-set that makes it more difficult for him and easier for the rest of us ...
Get workin' on that ;)
Originally posted by Mike:
ETA, he is the poster child for what can be accomplished in any rule set if you really put in the effort. the more i think about it, he's graduated into getting his own ruleset, let him decide what his restrictions should be, he clearly doesn't need anyone else to tell him. |
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08/14/2015 10:48:27 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Mike:
Christophe was outclassing most people here before expert even become a regular item. his work was barely "photographic in nature" at that time but the naysayers had no argument when he built his sets and shot it all in one frame. his work all of a sudden became digital art when they could begin to categorize by what was all in the expert editing ruleset.
I'm just impressed by what some people can dream up here in any ruleset. I'll let others categorize what photography is and what photographers are, they seem to have it all figured out. |
I will say that as impressed as I am with his work in general, the 'real' photography he does absolutely blows me away once in a while. |
only once and a while?
ETA, he is the poster child for what can be accomplished in any rule set if you really put in the effort. the more i think about it, he's graduated into getting his own ruleset, let him decide what his restrictions should be, he clearly doesn't need anyone else to tell him.
Message edited by author 2015-08-14 10:50:55. |
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08/14/2015 10:41:48 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Christophe was outclassing most people here before expert even become a regular item. his work was barely "photographic in nature" at that time but the naysayers had no argument when he built his sets and shot it all in one frame. his work all of a sudden became digital art when they could begin to categorize by what was all in the expert editing ruleset.
I'm just impressed by what some people can dream up here in any ruleset. I'll let others categorize what photography is and what photographers are, they seem to have it all figured out. |
I will say that as impressed as I am with his work in general, the 'real' photography he does absolutely blows me away once in a while. |
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08/14/2015 10:38:43 AM · #11 |
Christophe was outclassing most people here before expert even become a regular item. his work was barely "photographic in nature" at that time but the naysayers had no argument when he built his sets and shot it all in one frame. his work all of a sudden became digital art when they could begin to categorize by what was all in the expert editing ruleset.
I'm just impressed by what some people can dream up here in any ruleset. I'll let others categorize what photography is and what photographers are, they seem to have it all figured out.
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08/14/2015 10:20:56 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We are entirely open to allowing Gyaban-esque workflows in our challenges if that's what the members want, but we need to have a way to verify and validate them, which we currently cannot do. At the same time, we've heard legitimate complaints from other members that the kind of work they WANT to do, that is relevant to the "real world of photography" as it exists right now, is so subsumed by these fantastical creations that it doesn't have a chance. |
(bold added)
I always have a problem with people saying they do not have a chance against Gyaban. Although it is probably true, the reason is because he has the vision and talent to create powerful works of art that fit the challenge. In sports, we don't say the best can't play because others can't beat them. Maybe the goal should be to do one's best and create/shoot something you are proud of, regardless of the final placement. |
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08/14/2015 10:16:46 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by atupdate:
Originally posted by jagar:
why not just let rip and name it digital art inspired from photography, no rules, no stress, just fantasy art pure and simple. |
And the name of this website is what?
Tim |
Well digital art always does really well here, the highest scoring photos are digital art in my opinion, so i'm only suggesting making room for those who'd like to move away from the photographic side of things, If we don't they won't have a place here. |
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08/14/2015 09:52:54 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by kasaba:
Originally posted by sempermarine:
Originally posted by skewsme:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
We have removed the DQ on the former 5th-place entry pending review of the original files. A request for an extra day to upload had been in our system but had slipped through the cracks. Since we regularly grant such extensions (we HATE to DQ otherwise-valid images for failure to produce an original), we have done the same thing here. So the front page is looking a little back-and-forthy right now. Sorry for all the drama. |
Yay way to go! Congrats Kasaba and sorry Semper ;-) |
It's all good. My profile page is still showing I need to submit my work. Still required now that I am in 6th? I assume no. Especially since I spent a boat load of money on a party to celebrate an HM with 3 of my kids in the photo and now no HM. They will most likely get over the disappoint in a few years. |
Go Semper - congrats - no party is ever in vain :-) |
Bittersweet. This has been one crazy challenge. My reality, I won long before being validated or someone else not be validated. Beyond all this hubba bub, I was able to share some memories with my children and at the end of the day I could have placed last and would have won! I often wonder if my self-portrait entries impact my overall score. (I get 1's all the time) But, then I say to myself, "Who cares!" You see, I have seven children and I only have time for photography after they go to bed (unless I can convince them to help) so I am the only model I have. Plus I am creating great memories for and with myself. :)
I have goals to obtain in photography and DPC has given me a great outlet to practice and learn. I always appreciate the inspiration (talent) from everyone on this site and hope we can continue to grow from this experience.
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08/14/2015 08:09:51 AM · #15 |
Personally, DPC suits my skill set (and software / workflow habits) well. I enjoy using the camera to find / create the final image. The restrictions such as requiring EXIF data and a limited time frame means that I am generally competing on a level field. I benefitted from the recent gyaban DQ, so I may be biased - but at this point removing restrictions doesn't seem like the highest priority here (unless it brings more users, voters, and attention to the site -- which I'm not sure it will).
As for site changes / improvements, here are a few off the top of my head:
Add portfolio storage space for members
Improve DPCPrints and add stock photography sales
Improve marketing and social media presence
Improve/reward voting and participation in a tangible way (if only digital icons)
Allow members better customization of their public portfolios
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08/14/2015 07:56:18 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by atupdate:
Originally posted by jagar:
why not just let rip and name it digital art inspired from photography, no rules, no stress, just fantasy art pure and simple. |
And the name of this website is what?
Tim |
Maybe the website is due for a name change? Call it DPChallenge+ or DPChallengePlus ??? :) |
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08/14/2015 07:54:17 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by jagar:
why not just let rip and name it digital art inspired from photography, no rules, no stress, just fantasy art pure and simple. |
And the name of this website is what?
Tim |
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08/14/2015 06:48:33 AM · #18 |
| I'm probably being naive but the way I see it is: these images don't look like photos at all, their content isn't usually even possible in the physical world, why not just let rip and name it digital art inspired from photography, no rules, no stress, just fantasy art pure and simple. |
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08/14/2015 06:36:09 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by gyaban:
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:
Isn't that called Worth100.com or similar? |
Their contests are about manipulating stock photos, you don't have to be the author of the source material. What DPC offers is pretty much unique, in terms of challenge. |
there is a certain level of satisfaction to creating an image with your own source material, sort of like baking cake from scratch.
my only issue with computer generated components is where does it end? who is to stop someone from creating a fully rendered scene? Its not that real scenes compete with computer generated ones, its that computer generated one have very little boundaries in terms of access.
one thing i like about this place is that it tries really hard to compare apples to apples and we are getting into the realm of apples to oranges. While I'd love to see DPC to evolve when it comes to editing but I also dont want it to become something else. I love Christophe's work and I'd hate to reel him on what he can create but I think he's taking DPC on a different tangent.
of course he is right, there isn't like DPC to fit his style and so many people do like to at least dabble in it, i dont see why this place couldn't have its own category to fill this style of creating an image. if anything it can be a playground to try something new.
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08/14/2015 04:32:08 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:
Isn't that called Worth100.com or similar? |
Their contests are about manipulating stock photos, you don't have to be the author of the source material. What DPC offers is pretty much unique, in terms of challenge. |
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08/14/2015 04:28:41 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by jagar:
... People who want and like this sort of thing should have a slot for them, somewhere they don't have to worry about all the ambiguous rules. |
Isn't that called Worth100.com or similar? I like 'digital art' but not in a photography competition and (personally) think this type of work has outgrown DPC and would be better presented on a more specific site? Unless, of course as Jagar and others have suggested the challenge rules are specifically 'digital art' and anything goes. |
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08/14/2015 04:25:09 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
& FWIW I favor no rules re what you do with the photograph after you take it. Simple. No DQ. No misunderstandings. No hurt feelings. Less work for SC. Let the voters sort it out. |
as always +67 |
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08/14/2015 03:03:37 AM · #23 |
The question of whether or not most of the top scoring expertly edited photos here are photogenic in nature isn't clear depending on the criteria one judges them on, they don't really look like photos but they are made from photos. Christophe would like to be able to bring none photographic 3D parts into his images so the vision of what he wants to create isn't hindered by the possibilities of a camera, I think he should have the chance to do this, but the rule set should be called digital art not expert or anything else that hints at the fact that the work has been done entirely from photos. People who want and like this sort of thing should have a slot for them, somewhere they don't have to worry about all the ambiguous rules.
Message edited by author 2015-08-14 03:16:52. |
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08/13/2015 11:06:21 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by tanguera:
... Questions of is it art or photography is a matter of taste. ... |
Well, if a camera wasn't involved in the making of this "art" then it certainly isn't photography anymore. I'd certainly hope we could at least agree on that. |
What about oatmeal box cameras, and other "non-traditional" devices to create images...?
Missed Dennis' post:
Originally posted by EstimatedEyes:
We seem to be assuming here that a photograph requires a camera. Does it? |
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According to OUR rules, the images have to be shot with a digital camera that records EXIF data. That's obviously not a definition that encompasses all of what photography is, but this is DPC (Digital Photography Challenge) and that's always been fundamental in our rules. |
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08/13/2015 09:18:42 PM · #25 |
Putting aside the exif, date/time validation issue. So an image created with the proposed Unlimited editing set, could it be used to create a work that was made just using a 3D modeling app (3ds Max, Maya, etc.), be submitted to the challenge and pass verification? Not a single photo required? If at least one photo is required, what if it covers just say 5% of the final image area? Naturally many 3D models require photos for texturing so that adds to the discussion as well.
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