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06/07/2015 09:10:51 AM · #1 |
Originally posted by Neat:
I see you have a few 'mills on hills' as well.
If you're going to post a similar photo in three challenges in one week at least come from it from a different angle, or change the editing style, it kind of cheapens it otherwise.
I have to be honest it does grate me a bit. They were all done well, if you like that sort of thing. |
Don't blame Brennan. Blame the voters who repeatedly voted high for the same shot, essentially rewarding the repetition.
Message edited by author 2015-06-07 09:17:09. |
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06/07/2015 01:32:30 AM · #2 |
| An interesting experiment, Brennan, and an interesting discussion. I gave a higher vote for West Span than I did for Velvet Elvis Edit even though I saw the latter first. That is simply because I preferred West Span. (I didn't vote the Deja Vu challenge at all because I didn't have time to research originals and voting would therefore have lacked integrity). There is no doubt about it though, that impact dies off as something becomes familiar. I can remember seeing the Blue Lake in South Australia for the first time. The scene hit me like a physical blow; literally took my breath away. I've seen it numerous times since and all it is is a nice view. Similar experience with the Three Sisters in the Blue Mountains. There is nothing like the first time for anything. |
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06/06/2015 10:24:52 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
When I look at a landscape nothing happens, I have no way to remember any one individual landscape. If I had voted, I would've voted each one separately & forgot it immediately. |
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Oh, wow! We couldn't be further apart in that. I find (good) landscape photos to be endlessly fascinating in their details, their varying ambiances, their ability to transport me to strange and wonderful (or old and familiar) realms... |
Yep. You live in a lovely area for shooting landscapes, too, which is nice. The (few) landscapes that catch my eye do so for dominating abstract qualities, not razor-sharp detail. |
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06/06/2015 09:13:08 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
When I look at a landscape nothing happens, I have no way to remember any one individual landscape. If I had voted, I would've voted each one separately & forgot it immediately. |
)
Oh, wow! We couldn't be further apart in that. I find (good) landscape photos to be endlessly fascinating in their details, their varying ambiances, their ability to transport me to strange and wonderful (or old and familiar) realms... |
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06/06/2015 09:00:48 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
It is only normal to be delighted with the new. That which is fresh holds a special appeal. The question I have is, “When you have seen something before, is it less beautiful?” ...Why do we vote lower on an image that is similar to something we have seen before? If we liked an image the first time, why do we feel it cheapens it to see something like it again? |
Been thinking about this, it's interesting. Being delighted with the new is what I would call shopping. We are a consumer culture & we shop for the new all the time. Likewise we return again & again to old favorites. The original ice cream flavors are still popular 200+ years later, for example. The Mona Lisa still draws a crowd.
There are some images in my Favorites folder here that I can see perfectly without looking at them, yet I return again & again to look at them with pleasure as fresh as the first time. And yet, with few exceptions, none of them made the front page.
Brennan's experiment is interesting, & no apology or explanation is necessary though I enjoyed reading this thread. I have a developing theory that a large part of a landscape photo's appeal is its simple mindlessness. What I mean by that is I saw all three images as they appeared on the front page & didn't notice any of them. When I look at a landscape nothing happens, I have no way to remember any one individual landscape. If I had voted, I would've voted each one separately & forgot it immediately.
So, the answer to your question is "It depends, I guess." |
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06/06/2015 07:42:51 PM · #6 |
Oops! I did vote on two of them. Velvet and West both got a 7. I didn't vote on the FS or the Deju Vu ones.
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06/06/2015 04:55:46 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Just as you tell those who don't quite agree with comments they receive, YOU should let the communal indecision of DPC roll off your back and just keep doing what you do. |
 Melethia Thanks for pointing that out! I was too busy "giving advice" to others to see that I could benefit from following it myself :) Cheers! |
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06/06/2015 04:44:20 PM · #8 |
Melethia speaks wise words. Well said.
Message edited by author 2015-06-06 16:44:49. |
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06/06/2015 03:57:20 PM · #9 |
| I don't suppose it matters much what we thought or voted on these images, the only real matter of importance is whether the photographer improved his art or not. In my opinion taking three consecutive shots of a static subject wouldn't help in improving my photography, I didn't vote on these pictures but I would have voted a 5 on everyone of them, no life or emotion in them for me, sorry. |
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06/06/2015 03:13:39 PM · #10 |
I see you have a few 'mills on hills' as well.
If you're going to post a similar photo in three challenges in one week at least come from it from a different angle, or change the editing style, it kind of cheapens it otherwise.
I have to be honest it does grate me a bit. They were all done well, if you like that sort of thing. |
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06/06/2015 02:50:40 PM · #11 |
ArnaMarie, some great thoughts - thanks for posting! And please PLEASE do continue voting and commenting. Just as you tell those who don't quite agree with comments they receive, YOU should let the communal indecision of DPC roll off your back and just keep doing what you do. Don't let a few naysayers take away from your enjoyment of the site, ever! That goes for all of you!
By the way, I did get a PM from Brennan in the middle of this experiment, based on a comment I made on one of the entries. I tend to vote almost all the challenges, but didn't this time due to time constraints. I DID notice the second entry once the first popped up on the front page; the rest after I went looking for them. I don't mind using a single photoshoot to enter multiple challenges. I do that myself, frequently. My entries for Billy Joel Lyrics, Abstract in Green, and Filmic all came from the same shoot; my entries for Book Cover, Free Study, and Quiet are all from the same shoot. Note that the scores from these neither improve nor deprove. For the first series - 5.2, 5.4, 5.3. From this we can deduce I need a MUCH MUCH better photoshoot location. Or talent. There's that. (The second shoot, incidentally, will yeild what looks to be a pair of 5.5s, and a possible 5.7 - woo hoo! High score of the past few months!)
Do I get a wee bit annoyed/jealous when the same picture gets the accolades and high scores over and over? Sure. In reviewing my marks for the FS, I see that I sometimes (but not always) vote lower by a point or so (there are several "repeats" in there - same photoshoot, same subject matter as previous challenges). I'll have to watch for that in the future. For the bridges? I voted on two - one got an 8, one got a 6.
Message edited by author 2015-06-06 18:11:04. |
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06/06/2015 02:03:53 PM · #12 |
I scored all 3.
I gave you a 9 for the first one, an 8 for the second one and a 10 for the third one. I didnt even realize the 3 images were pretty much the same until reading this discussion. After reviewing the scores i gave you I was pleased because the 10 was clearly the best and the 8 I gave you doesn't compare to the 10 :D |
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06/06/2015 12:47:00 PM · #13 |
I’ll chime in because the photographer is begging for our thoughts.
He took and entered these images as an experiment. He wanted to see how we’d react. Since score is his concern, I’d say he did well. Top three in each challenge for basically the same image.
What I find fascinating is how a social experiments come back at you. Many voters were trying to figure what’s this photographer’s intention? Does he love it this much? Curious about different editing techniques? Or as stated just interested in seeing voter response.
The important thing to take away is that it’s a two way street. Those who study others are being studied themselves. To believe this isn’t true, that it’s a one way street, is vanity.
Message edited by author 2015-06-06 13:10:56. |
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06/06/2015 11:47:47 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
anyone notice we hardly ever see hummingbird entries anymore? used to be there was one on the front page all the time. |
And refractive water droplets. And "splish-splash" frozen-motion shots. |
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06/06/2015 11:20:05 AM · #15 |
| anyone notice we hardly ever see hummingbird entries anymore? used to be there was one on the front page all the time. |
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06/06/2015 11:15:02 AM · #16 |
I think I only voted in one of these challenges but if I had voted on all three I probably would have voted less each time and probably significantly.
Why? Because of lack of originality. Not originality of the image but originality of the photographer (no disrespect intended). Some will say the image should be judged independently within the context of each challenge only. That would make sense. But not for me, the three different edits are not original enough to make them truly different images and that would effect the score.
Taking it a step further, I have to admit that if it was a mediocre image to start with, say a 5.5, I probably wouldn't vary the vote much. But if the first time I saw it I voted it an 8 the next time I saw it, it would probably drop to 6 and the next to 4. I would be hard pressed to reward a competitor who keeps submitting the same potential winner over and over again. |
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06/06/2015 10:45:37 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
That the progressive images got rewarded progressively higher speaks more to the sensibilities of the wallpaper rewarding voters here than anything else. Pretty is almost always rewarded over meaningful. Images that reveals something only after close inspection haven't a prayer because I suspect a significant portion of the voters here make up their mind in the first 0.5 seconds and slap their 'Meh' score (which seems to be somewhere between 3 & 5) and move on without actually seeing what the photographer intended. ut if it elicits an "Oooooooh" then they'll spend time if only to debate "8, 9 or 10?" It doesn't matter that they've seen the scene a dozen times before from either the same or another photographer, it's still pretty. It's why my mother has a hard drive full of over saturated sunsets, mountain landscapes, kittens and hot air balloons that she can watch float across her laptop screensaver as she's cooking dinner. |
First of all let me highlight that I do not believe that  backdoorhippie's comment was directed at me personally and that I do not believe that he had any other motives with it than adding to an important discussion. :) Yet, I will comment on it because it is relevant to my scoring of these images, as my previous comment demonstrates, and perhaps (emphasis on perhaps) to other hobby photographers or new non-professional DPC members. So here goes...
Have I seen images like the three in Brennan experiment before? Absolutely! Do they make less of an impression after a while? No doubt! The same goes for sheep in mist, cowboys on rodeo horse, flying eagles, lighthouses with bedrock in the foreground (these were just the first that came to mind and I am by no means trying to belittle this work). I understand where backdoorhippie is coming from with "lazy photography", but I do not feel I can "punish" photographers for playing on their strengths or taking photos of what they enjoy taking photos of. The wow factor of such images has undoubtedly decreased since joining this site. This does however not mean that I do not recognise and envy the skill that is required to capture these scenes and subjects well. One day I hope to acquire this skill, though when the time comes I will probably apply it to different scenes and subjects. Like backdoorhippie, I respect the work that went into producing it and I feel I should vote accordingly, even if the images are not my cup of tea. I believe that "labelling" members who rewarded the images progressively higher as "wallpaper rewarding voters" may be a bit misconstrued. I do not find this label fitting to me personally. Other who voted similar to me, might feel the same. Images like these do in fact not tickle my fancy, aseptically, but I still saw an increase in what I perceive as technical work in the three progressive images, consequently giving them progressively higher scores. So often do I see the "same" image in different challenges. The only difference here is that it was more obvious in that it was three succeeding challenges.
The following is a sidetrack from this thread, and is not, like the is comment in its total, directed at backdoor hippie personally, but I wanted to add the below while I have the chance. Those of you who are not interested in reading about what it is like to be a newbie at DPC, can safely stop reading now :) With the following I hope to point to some of the possible consequence of broad brush painting, like assigning labels to voters. Despite probably not being the intention, I find the "wallpaper rewarding voter" label somewhat derogatory to people who do enjoy these images, including backdoorhippie's mother and people who are wrongfully assigned them. Also, I believe perhaps some DPC members underestimate how many passive members read the forum threads. To be honest, after 2 years I still feel confused and conflicted about my scoring. For periods so much that I refrain from voting and commenting altogether as I do not want to interfere, but "let the professional do their job". I feel this despite anyone ever having pointing a finger at me directly or telling me what I am doing is wrong. Perhaps other newbies feel the same. I can honestly say that my "voting insecurity" comes from thread comments writing in the lines of: "I've noticed that newbies are extremely critical and their profiles show low avg vote cast". Which may make some people feel like their votes are invalid. For the record, as far as I can see my avg vote score is the same as many more experienced members whom's profiles I have visited. I don't know if comment like this come from an expectation that beginners should automatically be amazed by everything non-beginners do. Which is of course ludicrous. The reason why I still vote and comment is because a couple of humble "older" members who repeatedly try to make us newbies feel better by saying things like "Your vote is as valuable as any others" or "Your comment shows how everyone perceives things differently". I have even gotten some lovely PMs thanking me for my comment. This is such a nice gesture! At the same times sometimes I feel like writing in some threads: "Dear Community, make up your mind! Do you want me here or not!"Hehe... I am aware that occasionally my voting is lower than what the photographer hoped for and sometimes I do not give helpful comments, but I wish that more people who receive such comments from me or other newbies would just brush it off. But at the same time, my vote was not the determining vote of your (referring to the collective you) final score. It's an average based on everyone's vote, experienced and beginners. Why not just be happy with your image! What matters is that you and whomever you regard as your peer like it. If you think I am wrong, then chances are I probably am. I am probably not your peer, so giggle of my clueless, novice improvement suggestion and move on to a comment that you feel was helpful or made you feel good :)
Finally, just wanted tho add that my incentive for joining DPC is in fact similar to that of backdoorhippie, who came her "hoping that it was comprised of other photographers who were interested in sharing both their art and their critiques as a way of building each other up". The difference is that I need to learn how to "correctly" take a photo before I can even consider creating art. For this DPC has been a nice place to start - filled with predominately well-meaning and lovely people.
Okay, I'm finished now. Thanks for reading! Sorry about the length! :)
Message edited by author 2015-06-06 12:05:26. |
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06/06/2015 08:50:31 AM · #18 |
| I don't disagree with you, Jake, but it's not about art or ribbons for everyone. For some it is an important part of their photographic journey into learning how to take 'pretty peekchurs'. |
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06/06/2015 07:19:00 AM · #19 |
I'm so glad you posted this, Brennan, because I wanted to talk about it and couldn't find a way to raise the topic without it sounding like sour grapes. Personally, I missed the first bridge shot and was taken aback at the last after seeing only the second. I commented as such and did not vote. Why? If this was flickr or 500px I could say, "Interesting set over time, I like this one best". For a challenge site, I see it as lazy photography. Killing 3 (or 4) birds with one stone is something someone does to get menial tasks done, but for art it trivializes it (and yet, I respected the work that went into producing it and couldn't just slam it in the vote because of it).
That the progressive images got rewarded progressively higher speaks more to the sensibilities of the wallpaper rewarding voters here than anything else. Pretty is almost always rewarded over meaningful. Images that reveals something only after close inspection haven't a prayer because I suspect a significant portion of the voters here make up their mind in the first 0.5 seconds and slap their 'Meh' score (which seems to be somewhere between 3 & 5) and move on without actually seeing what the photographer intended. But if it elicits an "Oooooooh" then they'll spend time if only to debate "8, 9 or 10?" It doesn't matter that they've seen the scene a dozen times before from either the same or another photographer, it's still pretty. It's why my mother has a hard drive full of over saturated sunsets, mountain landscapes, kittens and hot air balloons that she can watch float across her laptop screensaver as she's cooking dinner.
I realize I'm painting with a broad brush, and likely am speaking of people who participate in the voting and not much else on this site (i.e. most of them will never read this). My point being, I don't fault you for trying your experiment, Brennan, and again I'm glad you brought it up. And I can honestly say that I'm glad to hear you felt a twinge of guilt because, frankly, I would have too as I've walked away from an afternoon of shooting for one challenge with more than one shot and debated using the photographic shoehorn.
I came to this site a little over a year ago hoping that it was comprised of other photographers who were interested in sharing both their art and their critiques as a way of building each other up. What I found is quite different and I'm still deciding whether or not I need to be as bothered by it as I often am. I'm constantly waging war with myself over putting up something I want only to fight the daily battle of "How the hell is this in the mid-5's?!", and playing to the crowd and collecting candy for my profile wall. I know I want to put the photo first, but then you get things like the DPL and all of a sudden the score actually matters and I'm torn. I hate this place, which is apparently why I re-upped for another year three weeks ago. :-) |
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06/06/2015 06:34:39 AM · #20 |
Now you might want to repeat the exercise by using a different approach and coming up with a photograph that is not like a post card in the first place.
In two of your 3 challenges I voted and marked your shot with 5 for the effort. I did not think of one being better than the other, was not impressed by the editing and did not linger to look at them. All very well done but of no particular interest to me.
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06/06/2015 04:19:30 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by Jules1x:
While the photographer may have observed the score dropping due to the ability to see the continuing score, I find it interesting that the overall image averages increased over successive images with the last image having the highest overall average. So I am not sure that many really punished with low votes on an image that ended up in first place even though voters had seen similar scenes in preceding challenges. |
I noticed that too. Also, I looked up my scoring of the three entries. I gave the first a 7, the second a 8 and the last a 9.
Originally posted by Jules1x:
That said, I have noticed I am not as wowed by silky smooth waterfall scenes as I was two years ago when I first got here. (Although should I ever actually manage to capture one of those myself, it will no doubt be a phenomenal success in my mind.) |
+1
Message edited by author 2015-06-06 04:20:18. |
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06/06/2015 12:16:50 AM · #22 |
Many of the most popular authors write the same book over and over again. Their fans love them all the more for it. If John Grisham had suddenly and unexpectedly published Ulysses his readers would have said, "What a piece of crap!" and found a new favourite author.
We take comfort in the familiar and the most comfort in the most familiar.
Originality is anathema to photographers, except for the very bad ones, and the very good ones. In between its mostly recycling. |
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06/05/2015 10:36:00 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times. |
No but he did paint The Buccleuch Madonna and the Landsdowne Madonna which were pretty much the same painting. If you knew which one was created first, would that be the better one? |
If someone commissioned two paintings from him, he would not have given those two. He would have given two different paintings. That's the point, not which one was first. |
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06/05/2015 08:26:29 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Lydia:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Lydia:
NOW look what you've done, Brennan! You've wasted Alice's good sherry.
:D |
It wasn't me, I was trying for the whole erudite thing; Larry was the one who brought the funny. |
You started it. :D |
I's okay...I wiped down the screen, and yes, there was enough sherry in the bottle left for another toast to DPC.
Note: I did NOT wring out the cleaning cloth.
Oh, yes. Landsdowne - 8
Message edited by author 2015-06-05 20:28:21. |
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06/05/2015 08:23:58 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Lydia:
NOW look what you've done, Brennan! You've wasted Alice's good sherry.
:D |
It wasn't me, I was trying for the whole erudite thing; Larry was the one who brought the funny. |
You started it. :D
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