Clarifying the wording of the Artwork Rule

08/09/2014 12:41:25 PM · #1

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

One of our SC has some excellent ideas how to get this simplified without unintended consequences, all based on the community feedback, and he'll be tackling the task in the next week or so when he goes on vacation and has time off work to do so. It is, of course, not as simple as we liked to make it out to be in that thread, but we ARE working on it. Fingers crossed for a new wording to be in place in a couple weeks :-) Bear in mind that in the interim since that thread was turned over to us several SC actually were not available to comment, so we had to wait for feedback. It IS summer vacation...

As I said in an earlier post (8/2),
"SC has a huge job, as everyone knows, validating, enforcing rules, and generally keeping the site on course.
Formulating a new rule (or revising an old one) is far more than throwing some words together.
Now, I was thinking of weekly 'bumps' just to keep this thread in the forefront of things. Art beat me by a
few hours.
Still, let's give SC some time to deliberate this so we don't have to do it all over again."

I think we all understand that SC has plenty to do. And I, for one, am pleased to have this progress report.
It helps to know this matter is being considered and an occasional progress report helps.
Talk to you again next Saturday.

08/09/2014 12:29:42 PM · #2

08/09/2014 12:27:00 PM · #3

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Waiting patiently for the SC to complete their deliberations... :)

Art Roflmao said it best.

It's been two weeks since we asked Site Council to consider a change to the Artwork Rule.

May we have a progress report soon?

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

08/02/2014 09:45:39 PM · #4

Originally posted by raish:

nothing but 'art'work and no one complained

score low, that's my strategy

I gave it a generous 2. ;-) This is why I think the artwork rule should be eliminated and let the voters decide and if they are fooled, so be it - and if someone wins a ribbon based wholly on existing artwork, let the mob express their disdain in post challenge comments. That's usually enough to dissuade people from doing it, IMO.

Waiting patiently for the SC to complete their deliberations... :)

08/02/2014 09:11:04 AM · #5

SC has a huge job, as everyone knows, validating, enforcing rules, and generally keeping the site on course.

Formulating a new rule (or revising an old one) is far more than throwing some words together.

Now, I was thinking of weekly 'bumps' just to keep this thread in the forefront of things. Art beat me by a
few hours.

Still, let's give SC some time to deliberate this so we don't have to do it all over again.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

08/02/2014 08:34:39 AM · #6

Originally posted by Beetle:

I bet there is still at least SOME interest, but there comes a time where everyone is holding their breath for Langdon to show that he still occasionally gets involved.

The rules are not Langdon's job. SC is working on this.

raish

Olympus C-2500L

08/02/2014 06:31:35 AM · #7

nothing but 'art'work and no one complained

score low, that's my strategy

Beetle

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

08/02/2014 06:01:42 AM · #8

I bet there is still at least SOME interest, but there comes a time where everyone is holding their breath for Langdon to show that he still occasionally gets involved.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

08/02/2014 05:06:02 AM · #9

Annnnnnnd... we've lost interest. (?)

07/28/2014 09:08:11 PM · #10

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by blindjustice:
Alice- you have done an excellent job of keeping everyone focused toward the goal and I commend you for that... and since no good deed goes unpunished, once we straighten this out, I nominate you to moderate a few more issues, as they arise...

+1 and I nominate you for site council - I think it's a ten year process, so let's get the campaign rolling. :) Thanks to Bear also for making the suggestion and also helping the dialog move forward.

As far as the 3 choices presented, FWIW, I like 1 or 3, but not 2.

Awwww, gee whiz...(turns reddish with tones of yellow & a touch of blue)
Now, I'm not as good as Ken is at this (who is!) but when I first entered the jousting circles on this subject,
I noodled around and created this:

. I came out of retirement for a few days just now.
but happily return to my former status.

Thank you to everyone, and especially thanks to the trio of Site Council members who did, indeed, move the dialog forward and toward a solution.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/28/2014 08:47:10 PM · #11

Originally posted by blindjustice:

Alice- you have done an excellent job of keeping everyone focused toward the goal and I commend you for that... and since no good deed goes unpunished, once we straighten this out, I nominate you to moderate a few more issues, as they arise...

+1 and I nominate you for site council - I think it's a ten year process, so let's get the campaign rolling. :) Thanks to Bear also for making the suggestion and also helping the dialog move forward.

As far as the 3 choices presented, FWIW, I like 1 or 3, but not 2.

blindjustice

Canon EOS-60D

07/28/2014 08:24:29 PM · #12

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by blindjustice:
was the eyeball and paperclip shot Dq'd for the reason the paperclip was added? that seems to be an insignificant addition not worthy of a DQ.

Actually, the ONLY thing real was the paperclip! The eye/face surround was an image displayed on the monitor.

Now it makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for clarifying.

I am hoping that through all of this we simply have a rule that people can understand and follow up front.

Alice- you have done an excellent job of keeping everyone focused toward the goal and I commend you for that... and since no good deed goes unpunished, once we straighten this out, I nominate you to moderate a few more issues, as they arise...

Message edited by author 2014-07-28 20:24:51.

07/28/2014 06:36:07 PM · #13

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by sfalice:

That's a little self-contradictory. You give them 3 different solutions and call it a "consensus".

Well, we agreed on three different ways to solve this problem of the Artwork Rule.
Then all the Site Council needs to do is select one and modify if necessary. Oh yes, and implement.
Makes sense to me.
:)

Message edited by author 2014-07-28 18:36:34.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM

07/28/2014 04:57:02 PM · #14

Originally posted by blindjustice:

was the eyeball and paperclip shot Dq'd for the reason the paperclip was added? that seems to be an insignificant addition not worthy of a DQ.

Actually, the ONLY thing real was the paperclip! The eye/face surround was an image displayed on the monitor.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

07/28/2014 02:49:00 PM · #15

Originally posted by sfalice:

Okay, four hours have passed and it appears consensus has been reached. I will now send the following PM to all Site Council members and to Langdon:

A couple of days ago I sent a message to all Site Council members and to Langdon alerting you to this thread and thanking Scalvert, GeneralE and Bear_Music for taking part and help to lead our discussion.

After three days of discussion and enormous assistance from the above-mentioned trio, we have come to the following consensus on replacing the Current Rule:

1. Revoke the Artwork Rule.

2. Other than used as a physical object (photo in a frame on a table, on the wall - part of the environment), that artwork not be allowed in anything but Expert challenges

3. Revise the rule to read:
You may: include existing artwork when photographing your entry, but you must not put voters into the position of voting on the quality of the artwork you've photographed, instead of the quality of your photograph[/b]

We hope you will consider this rule change expeditiously. If you have any questions to ask of the membership, perhaps you will ask them in the Thread still open for that purpose.

Everyone involved in this discussion has expressed great appreciation and admiration for the work you all do and we hope this dialog will assist you in making the correct decision in regard to this rule.

Alice

That's a little self-contradictory. You give them 3 different solutions and call it a "consensus".

pixelpig

Sony Alpha a55

Sony DT 1.8/50mm SAM

07/28/2014 12:35:58 PM · #16

Originally posted by nygold:

How about a BAD art rule.

Should this have gotten the hook for the art rule?

Voting on your artwork, 5. Voting on your photograph of that artwork, 1. Voting on how well it meets the challenge, 1.

Message edited by author 2014-07-28 12:37:07.

giantmike

Canon EOS R6

07/28/2014 12:27:11 PM · #17

Originally posted by nygold:

How about a BAD art rule.

Should this have gotten the hook for the art rule?

No one would mistake that for real objects in a scene, so I don't see how that would get DQed.

nygold

Nikon D5000

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G

07/28/2014 11:28:51 AM · #18

How about a BAD art rule.

Should this have gotten the hook for the art rule?

LN13

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 15-85mm IS USM

07/28/2014 10:51:18 AM · #19

Originally posted by tate:

Should have been DQ'd?

Under the basic editing rules at the time, no. Under current rules, probably.

tate

Apple iPhone 14 Pro

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

07/28/2014 10:19:51 AM · #20

Should have been DQ'd?

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

07/28/2014 09:39:06 AM · #21

Originally posted by Mike:

if the spirit of the rule is to keep people from circumventing restrictions why not just validate images based on that? DQ images that use the artwork loophole to get around other restrictions and allow those that support the composition and dont violate date or editing rules.

i think its pretty clear when artwork is used to support the composition and when its used as the main element to circumvent another rule.

It may be "clear" in the most obvious cases, but there's no way to draw a line here, that's a huge gray area that would be opened up. If we task SC with enforcing whether an image falls within the "spirit of the rules" there will inevitably be howls of outrage :-( I wish it were that simple...

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

07/28/2014 08:08:47 AM · #22

instead of trying to rewrite the rules, maybe the solution is in validation, for instance consistency, the precedent is all over the place.

if the spirit of the rule is to keep people from circumventing restrictions why not just validate images based on that? DQ images that use the artwork loophole to get around other restrictions and allow those that support the composition and dont violate date or editing rules.

i think its pretty clear when artwork is used to support the composition and when its used as the main element to circumvent another rule.

Message edited by author 2014-07-28 08:09:55.

07/27/2014 08:41:34 PM · #23

Langdon alerting you to this thread and thanking

Scalvert,

GeneralE and

Bear_Music for taking part and help to lead our discussion.

After three days of discussion and enormous assistance from the above-mentioned trio, we have come to the following consensus on replacing the Current Rule:

1. Revoke the Artwork Rule.

2. Other than used as a physical object (photo in a frame on a table, on the wall - part of the environment), that artwork not be allowed in anything but Expert challenges

3. Revise the rule to read:
You may: include existing artwork when photographing your entry, but you must not put voters into the position of voting on the quality of the artwork you've photographed, instead of the quality of your photograph[/b]

We hope you will consider this rule change expeditiously. If you have any questions to ask of the membership, perhaps you will ask them in the Thread still open for that purpose.

Everyone involved in this discussion has expressed great appreciation and admiration for the work you all do and we hope this dialog will assist you in making the correct decision in regard to this rule.

Alice

pixelpig

Sony Alpha a55

Sony DT 1.8/50mm SAM

07/27/2014 07:36:49 PM · #24

Just askin', is all. Not complaining. Thank you for taking the time to go over it again.

I could never do the job you are doing on the SC. It's tough. Thanks & praises to those on the SC for the time & effort put into this site. And thanks & praises to sfalice for shepherding this thread through to a successful conclusion. I'm sure I speak for everyone.