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DPChallenge Forums >> Business of Photography >> Your views on SOPA
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03/14/2013 07:51:08 AM · #1
Originally posted by Ann:

Kids'll click on anything.


i learned to put my phone on airplane mode after my son bought a few apps clicking the popup adds.
03/14/2013 01:01:50 AM · #2
Very interesting :)
03/13/2013 04:27:21 PM · #3
Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by Spork99:


On your family's machines, I suggest implementing controls over what software can be run on those machines. You might have to get off the porcelain throne to do it.


Spork does bring up a good (if unrelated to OP's problem) point. If your kids have the admin password on their machines, be prepared for your entire network to be infected with....something. Again and again. And again. Kids'll click on anything.


A virus is exactly why I have admin accounts on their machines and they do not. My kid installed some "free" game, then a week or so later came to me with, "Dad, my computer is really slow"
03/13/2013 04:21:23 PM · #4
Originally posted by Spork99:


On your family's machines, I suggest implementing controls over what software can be run on those machines. You might have to get off the porcelain throne to do it.


Spork does bring up a good (if unrelated to OP's problem) point. If your kids have the admin password on their machines, be prepared for your entire network to be infected with....something. Again and again. And again. Kids'll click on anything.
03/13/2013 04:18:01 PM · #5
Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Ann:


BTW, in my job as a computer security person, the most common question I get asked is, "My teenager won't give me the password to his laptop. How do I break in?"


The number one condition for my kids to have their own computer is that I will ALWAYS know the password. If I try to access it and my password doesn't work, the laptop gets impounded until I get access back. (They've never done anything like this)


Usually, it's after the laptop has been impounded for some reason that the parents want to get in, and the kids have conveniently "forgotten" their passwords. It happens often enough that I keep a CD ready to hand out.


I also make sure that not only do I know their password...my account is the admin on their system.
03/13/2013 04:14:42 PM · #6
Originally posted by ambaker:

Originally posted by mike_311:


i see your concerns but ignorance is never a defense.


There is quite a difference between ignorance and omniscience. Which is what you are proposing.

For me to know what programs each and every person is running, is beyond my technical abilities. Do I inventory each and every hard drive, prior to allowing access to my wireless network? Do I also need to recognize the hash table for each version of every file sharing software program, so that if they simply rename the program I can tell? How do I tell if they are watching netflix or downloading an illegal file? With HBO issuing take down requests against HBO, I am supposed to be even more accurate?

I agree with informing guests of the ground rules. No piracy, porn, or illegal activities. If I see it, you're gone...

Due diligence is reasonable.

Absolute knowledge of what the kids are doing while I am in the restroom is impossible.


Blocking bit torrents on the router is possible, then at least you can be reasonable certain what they aren't doing while you poop in peace.

On your family's machines, I suggest implementing controls over what software can be run on those machines. You might have to get off the porcelain throne to do it.
03/13/2013 04:12:14 PM · #7
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Ann:


BTW, in my job as a computer security person, the most common question I get asked is, "My teenager won't give me the password to his laptop. How do I break in?"


The number one condition for my kids to have their own computer is that I will ALWAYS know the password. If I try to access it and my password doesn't work, the laptop gets impounded until I get access back. (They've never done anything like this)


Usually, it's after the laptop has been impounded for some reason that the parents want to get in, and the kids have conveniently "forgotten" their passwords. It happens often enough that I keep a CD ready to hand out.
03/13/2013 03:19:20 PM · #8
Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Spork99:



It can detect the traffic generated by that software, not the specific software. It's not detecting the software itself, just the data being sent over the internet.

Just like they can tell what websites you visit or emails you send or any of that stuff.


i think his question was how is a website can detect if you are using IE or Firefox or chrome, it can also detect what OS.

for instance i can go into Google analytics i can get a breakdown of the users who accessed my site what OS and browser they use.

I don't know the answer.


When you load a page, the browser itself sends a bunch of information (browser, operating system, language, installed plugins, etc, etc, etc) back to the server. Browser fingerprinting is a big issue in privacy circles. It's actually pretty shocking how much information the browser sends, and how it can be used to identify you.
03/13/2013 03:00:28 PM · #9
Originally posted by GeneralE:

I think that one of the problems with programs like this is that the files being downloaded are not located on any one server -- bits and pieces are scattered among the drives of the users, who are acting as hosts as well as end-users.

So, when someone wants to download a "file" it is possible that some fragment of it is listed as being available via that particular computer, and it will be found wherever it happens to be on the internet.


the problem is the rights holder can't get sites shut down, e.g. Napster, but they can tell when folks are sharing and notify their ISPs just like we notify the ISP of offending websites with DMCA takedowns.

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 15:01:04.
03/13/2013 02:57:14 PM · #10
Originally posted by ambaker:

Originally posted by mike_311:


i see your concerns but ignorance is never a defense.


There is quite a difference between ignorance and omniscience. Which is what you are proposing.

For me to know what programs each and every person is running, is beyond my technical abilities. Do I inventory each and every hard drive, prior to allowing access to my wireless network? Do I also need to recognize the hash table for each version of every file sharing software program, so that if they simply rename the program I can tell? How do I tell if they are watching netflix or downloading an illegal file? With HBO issuing take down requests against HBO, I am supposed to be even more accurate?

I agree with informing guests of the ground rules. No piracy, porn, or illegal activities. If I see it, you're gone...

Due diligence is reasonable.

Absolute knowledge of what the kids are doing while I am in the restroom is impossible.


maybe that's why they are giving you six strikes. by the six time you ought to have taken the appropriate measures.


Message edited by author 2013-03-13 14:57:29.
03/13/2013 02:51:11 PM · #11
Originally posted by mike_311:


i see your concerns but ignorance is never a defense.


There is quite a difference between ignorance and omniscience. Which is what you are proposing.

For me to know what programs each and every person is running, is beyond my technical abilities. Do I inventory each and every hard drive, prior to allowing access to my wireless network? Do I also need to recognize the hash table for each version of every file sharing software program, so that if they simply rename the program I can tell? How do I tell if they are watching netflix or downloading an illegal file? With HBO issuing take down requests against HBO, I am supposed to be even more accurate?

I agree with informing guests of the ground rules. No piracy, porn, or illegal activities. If I see it, you're gone...

Due diligence is reasonable.

Absolute knowledge of what the kids are doing while I am in the restroom is impossible.

03/13/2013 02:47:56 PM · #12
I think that one of the problems with programs like this is that the files being downloaded are not located on any one server -- bits and pieces are scattered among the drives of the users, who are acting as hosts as well as end-users.

So, when someone wants to download a "file" it is possible that some fragment of it is listed as being available via that particular computer, and it will be found wherever it happens to be on the internet.
03/13/2013 02:38:15 PM · #13
The rights holder found an IP associated with downloading that file, they notified your ISP and the ISP notified you.

someone was downloading that game while connecting to your network, just like if it was a movie.

that is a justified strike one.

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 14:40:11.
03/13/2013 02:35:45 PM · #14
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Do I need to inspect these kids computers.

Apparently that's what the vendors are doing.

Now, I don't see where they have the right to determine what files or software I have installed on my computer -- though they are free to specify how something may or may not be used on their system. If the software itself is not illegal, I don't see where they have any right to even know about it, much less penalize you merely for possessing something legal.


they don't care if the software is legal its what you do with it. Cellphone companies ban you from using apps that violate their policies, it isn't any different.

I thought Kelli was dinged because the ISP detected the presence of the software, and that supposedly the kid didn't even know it was running, much less use it ...


No, the torrent software created data traffic of copyrighted material using her internet connection. That traffic is what the ISP detected. There is a valid use for bit torrents.


This is what they sent...

Copyright work(s) identified in the notification of claimed infringement:

Evidentiary Information:
Notice ID: 310-41481053
Asset: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Protocol: BitTorrent
IP Address: edit because I probably shouldn't post that...
File Name: The.Elder.Scrolls.V.Skyrim.Update.11-RELOADED
File Size: 275479405
Timestamp: 21 Jan 2013 06:49:49 GMT
Last Seen Date: 21 Jan 2013 06:49:49 GMT
Username (if available):

The kids weren't playing that game, they were playing WoW. This so I'm told, was running in the background.

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 14:44:29.
03/13/2013 02:14:33 PM · #15
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

[quote=Spork99]No, the torrent software created data traffic of copyrighted material using her internet connection. That traffic is what the ISP detected.

OK. We know that websites routinely detect the make and version of browser (and plug-ins) you are using, but I'm hearing you all saying they can only detect software which is actually actively interacting with their network or site.

It can detect the traffic generated by that software, not the specific software. It's not detecting the software itself, just the data being sent over the internet.

Just like they can tell what websites you visit or emails you send or any of that stuff.


i think his question was how is a website can detect if you are using IE or Firefox or chrome, it can also detect what OS.

for instance i can go into Google analytics i can get a breakdown of the users who accessed my site what OS and browser they use.

I don't know the answer.
03/13/2013 02:10:33 PM · #16
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Spork99:

No, the torrent software created data traffic of copyrighted material using her internet connection. That traffic is what the ISP detected.

OK. We know that websites routinely detect the make and version of browser (and plug-ins) you are using, but I'm hearing you all saying they can only detect software which is actually actively interacting with their network or site.


It can detect the traffic generated by that software. It's not detecting the software itself, just the data being sent over the internet. It's a byproduct of the ISP performing its job of managing the flow of data.

Just like they can tell what websites you visit or emails you send or any of that stuff.

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 14:12:59.
03/13/2013 01:59:39 PM · #17
Originally posted by Spork99:

No, the torrent software created data traffic of copyrighted material using her internet connection. That traffic is what the ISP detected.

OK. We know that websites routinely detect the make and version of browser (and plug-ins) you are using, but I'm hearing you all saying they can only detect software which is actually actively interacting with their network or site.

Originally posted by Ann:

So, now that I've read the entire thread....what to do about the problem is a legitimate question. Kelli, you say that your kid is pretty geeky. What about giving your kid the assignment of figuring out how to lock down the wifi router so that this doesn't happen again?

Make the punishment fit the crime, eh? ;-)

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 14:00:46.
03/13/2013 01:58:35 PM · #18
So, now that I've read the entire thread....what to do about the problem is a legitimate question. Kelli, you say that your kid is pretty geeky. What about giving your kid the assignment of figuring out how to lock down the wifi router so that this doesn't happen again?
03/13/2013 01:51:41 PM · #19
Originally posted by Ann:


BTW, in my job as a computer security person, the most common question I get asked is, "My teenager won't give me the password to his laptop. How do I break in?"


The number one condition for my kids to have their own computer is that I will ALWAYS know the password. If I try to access it and my password doesn't work, the laptop gets impounded until I get access back. (They've never done anything like this)

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 13:52:04.
03/13/2013 01:45:37 PM · #20
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Do I need to inspect these kids computers.

Apparently that's what the vendors are doing.

Now, I don't see where they have the right to determine what files or software I have installed on my computer -- though they are free to specify how something may or may not be used on their system. If the software itself is not illegal, I don't see where they have any right to even know about it, much less penalize you merely for possessing something legal.


they don't care if the software is legal its what you do with it. Cellphone companies ban you from using apps that violate their policies, it isn't any different.

I thought Kelli was dinged because the ISP detected the presence of the software, and that supposedly the kid didn't even know it was running, much less use it ...


Unless you have some sort of malware on your computer, or you're running software that gives someone else permission to look at the innards of your computer (typically used for tech support), nobody can look at what's installed or running on your computer. Your ISP, however, can look at the bytes going in and out, between your house and the internet, and get a good idea of what you're using your internet connection for. Other entities can use other methods (like ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' bhuge described) to examine the traffic on the open internet, and determine that, for example, someone is serving up torrent files from your house.

So, anyway. Yes, you are responsible for what is going in and out on the internet connection that goes into your house. If you're technogeeky enough, there are some options for locking down ports in your router, having multiple routers, etc. But if you're not capable of those things, your best defense is to change the password on your wifi and don't give it to your kid. His friends won't be able to use your wifi, but they don't seem to be responsible enough to handle it anyway.

BTW, in my job as a computer security person, the most common question I get asked is, "My teenager won't give me the password to his laptop. How do I break in?"
03/13/2013 01:35:10 PM · #21
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Do I need to inspect these kids computers.

Apparently that's what the vendors are doing.

Now, I don't see where they have the right to determine what files or software I have installed on my computer -- though they are free to specify how something may or may not be used on their system. If the software itself is not illegal, I don't see where they have any right to even know about it, much less penalize you merely for possessing something legal.


they don't care if the software is legal its what you do with it. Cellphone companies ban you from using apps that violate their policies, it isn't any different.

I thought Kelli was dinged because the ISP detected the presence of the software, and that supposedly the kid didn't even know it was running, much less use it ...


No, the torrent software created data traffic of copyrighted material using her internet connection. That traffic is what the ISP detected. There is a valid use for bit torrents.
03/13/2013 01:30:19 PM · #22
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Do I need to inspect these kids computers.

Apparently that's what the vendors are doing.

Now, I don't see where they have the right to determine what files or software I have installed on my computer -- though they are free to specify how something may or may not be used on their system. If the software itself is not illegal, I don't see where they have any right to even know about it, much less penalize you merely for possessing something legal.


they don't care if the software is legal its what you do with it. Cellphone companies ban you from using apps that violate their policies, it isn't any different.

I thought Kelli was dinged because the ISP detected the presence of the software, and that supposedly the kid didn't even know it was running, much less use it ...


um, no. im pretty sure that's illegal. if that's the case i take back everything said. The way its supposed to work is they see you seeding or leeching copyright material and notify the ISP that they have IPs that are infringing on copyright material. The ISP can match the IP they have to who had that IP on their network and track you down and notify you but they don't give you up. They should give you the name of the offended material too.

they can identify people who are pulling tons of bandwidth (ie torrent seeding or leeching), but they cant see what software you are using. i'd argue they probably wouldn't bother unless its a consistent problem.

in either case they ought to specify what it is you are violating, its their network and if you are pulling tons of bandwidth they have a right to notify you to stop since its detrimental to the other users and a violation of their terms, but its should be a strike.

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 13:33:43.
03/13/2013 01:18:17 PM · #23
Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Do I need to inspect these kids computers.

Apparently that's what the vendors are doing.

Now, I don't see where they have the right to determine what files or software I have installed on my computer -- though they are free to specify how something may or may not be used on their system. If the software itself is not illegal, I don't see where they have any right to even know about it, much less penalize you merely for possessing something legal.


they don't care if the software is legal its what you do with it. Cellphone companies ban you from using apps that violate their policies, it isn't any different.

I thought Kelli was dinged because the ISP detected the presence of the software, and that supposedly the kid didn't even know it was running, much less use it ...
03/13/2013 01:18:00 PM · #24
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Do I need to inspect these kids computers.

Apparently that's what the vendors are doing.

Now, I don't see where they have the right to determine what files or software I have installed on my computer -- though they are free to specify how something may or may not be used on their system. If the software itself is not illegal, I don't see where they have any right to even know about it, much less penalize you merely for possessing something legal.


No one is inspecting what is installed on your computer. People get strikes when they notice that you are serving copyrighted material to others over a peer to peer connection. They do this by jumping into the torrent pool, request the copyrighted material, and see who responds to the request.

ETA: It's more akin to advertising your meth business with an add in Craig's List. Cops don't go door to door looking for meth, but if you are publicly offering it to people, they will pay you a visit.

Message edited by author 2013-03-13 13:22:03.
03/13/2013 01:15:31 PM · #25
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by mike_311:

lucky you, i only have Comcast.


//wireless-isp.info/NJ.html


no coverage in my area.
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