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01/06/2012 09:20:01 PM · #1 |
when i first started on this site i had just gotten bitten by the photography bug. Being green and not knowing photoshop, I was so intimidated with advanced editing, that i longed for basic editing challenges. I thought all these ribbon winners were awesome at photoshop. Soon i realized that most of you guys suck at it :P and that your images really are that good and not photoshopped out the wazoo. I figured out that i didnt need to do the advanced tricks, my images needed to stand on their own first.
now i hate basic editing editing because its too damn restrictive, even if 95% of the time i use basic editing.
i like expert editing not because it allows me to make some crazy image, but becuase i usually follow some sort of tutorial to create a crazy effect, and along the way i learn what something in photoshop does that i had no idea why i would use it and maybe i'll get to apply it in another setting. |
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01/06/2012 08:39:32 PM · #2 |
I can see Brent's point of view. I definitely do not feel like I'm competitive in expert editing challenges. However, I don't think that's a reason to avoid them. (well... maybe... ;)
When the expert challenges come around, I feel like I'm at quite a disadvantage. But when a portrait challenge comes around -- I hate it even more. I suck at portraits!! No more portrait challenges!! Ever! :)
Anyway, you probably get the point. Just because we excel at something, or stink at something else, doesn't mean that those challenges should be excluded or included. A valid point is, portraits are photography, and expert editing crosses a line. Yet portions of it are definitely photography, and I do think it would be remiss if DPC excluded it completely. At this time, even if there are expert challenges, there are usually two other challenges during that week. If there were only two challenges/week, I do think it would be an issue in the competitions. At 3/week we still have a chance two other times.
During WPL, there were 27 challenges -- 4 were expert editing.
Edgar Allen Poe
day and night
motivational/demotivational
fool the viewer
I tried a couple of those challenges, and my highest placement was 25th. But I knew I wasn't going to do well on those, and so I put my time and effort into the other challenges during that week. I just viewed them as a chance to play around with something that usually doesn't interest me. The techniques that I've learned, however, have been invaluable in the challenges that do intrigue me. Expert editing is a learning tool, just like all of the other weird challenges that have shown up recently. Learn and enjoy. :)
Btw, the worst WPL challenge wasn't the expert editing challenges -- the worst was "you+1". Seriously -- don't you think this caters to the young and good looking, not the overweight housewife crowd? Ban all portraits!! Especially self portraits! :)
Message edited by author 2012-01-06 20:42:36. |
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01/06/2012 05:45:34 PM · #3 |
Instead of worrying too much about the scores, why not let expert editing challenges be an opportunity to be allowed to do whatever you want? In any other challenge, there are restrictions and it is those restrictions that can potentially (though not always!) limit the artist in the true image they wish to submit. I see just as much argument against basic editing, but don't understand why people just can't accept the imposed rule set for what it is: a CHALLENGE. If you don't have the time to invest into a "true" expert image, just do your best and allow the most flexible rule set possible to be a place to do what the time you DO have affords you to do. This is supposed to be fun! We are supposed to learn and grow and help each other out! Please, don't let a rule set be your deterimination for not submitting, commenting, or voting. Peruse the free gallery before you, be inspired, be challenged, give advice, let your imagination go wild because that's what an expert rule set is really intended to do.
Message edited by author 2012-01-06 17:48:03. |
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12/30/2011 05:39:48 PM · #4 |
Oops! Never mind. :-)
Message edited by author 2012-01-06 21:53:39. |
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12/30/2011 05:23:21 PM · #5 |
Well if I stepped on some toes by too frequently voicing my opinion regarding Expert editing I apologize :)
Normally I would just sit Expert topics out If I can't make time for them or do them with minimal processing as is everyone's choice. Recently I couldn't do this though without feeling guilty for letting down my WPL team. Well that is all done and over with now for me, and I'll be quiet again ;)
Again, I am sorry if I offended anyone :) |
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12/30/2011 04:29:00 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by gyaban:
Originally posted by Brent_S:
Please have sympathy for those of us who work a lot of hours Frank! :) |
Brent,
At first I found your crusade against Expert Editing amusing, but now this is becoming insulting. What gives you the right to assume that those spending lot of time on processing (or on their entries in a general way) don't work a lot on their regular job? You don't like that kind of images? Fine. Don't do them. Vote 1 on all them, if you like. But please respect the freedom that everyone has to do what he likes, and to invest time (or not) the way he likes. You are not the only one working hard for your normal job. I sacrifice most of my rare personal time, lots of evening I could spend with my wife while she watches TV alone, or lots of sleeping time doing my images. Moreover, I do know I'm not the only one here doing so. The fact you can't/don't want/don't, does not imply no one else should. Not everyone looks at photography the way you are, which does not mean they are wrong and should immediately stop. Lastly, a challenge on DPC typically gives you 7 days to prepare your entry: it's everyone's own business to organize it the way he wants. If I take a week off, just to spend 140 hours on my entries for the PhotoBowl, that's my plain right. In a sport competition, sportsmen can obviously train as much as they want beforehand, the fact one or some of the participants are not able to, is irrelevant. |
I totally agree with Gyaban on this. I am often ridiculed for the amount of time I spend on an image (especially in Expert editing). I plan my image from scratch and allow certain time to do the processing. Sometimes I don't have an idea that I want to run with or I don't have the time so I don't enter...that is my perogative. Yet there are times where my images come through a lot quicker. Organise your idea and your time and you can do it...regardless of the type of editing the challenge is. |
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12/30/2011 04:16:43 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by RKT:
I don't understand...if someone doesn't care for the Expert rule set, as some have mentioned here and in other various threads, why enter and why vote in one? There are other challenges to pick from. |
Agreed. And as was the point of this thread, you can enter expert challenges without doing any expert editing and still be very competitive.
When we had fewer expert challenges, people felt compelled to push the images over the top en masse, partly also because the topics were tailored for that type of editing, but the more of them we have, the more they settle down into an excellent blend of pure photography competing head-on with heavy doses of digital art.
ps: +1 and bravo to Christophe's post. The world (and DPC) does not revolve around any one person's time or lack thereof. Nobody is forcing you to compete or participate. |
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12/30/2011 04:13:08 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by RKT:
I don't understand...if someone doesn't care for the Expert rule set, as some have mentioned here and in other various threads, why enter and why vote in one? There are other challenges to pick from. I enjoy the expert challenges because they are to only time I can use a texture/overlay. Personally, I'd love to see an expert editing Free Study. I think it could be fun. |
I couldn't agree more. Expert editing isn't just about fantasyland images, it's about textures and overlays and other "forbidden" techniques that are a lot less obvious. And I started this thread to point out that even if you DON'T have the skill-set, the time, or the desire to engage in full-blown expert compositing for a given challenge, that's no reason to despair. We can, and often DO, score very well in expert challenges with advanced editing, or even basic editing for that matter, just as basic editing can still score well in advanced challenges. It all starts with the vision and the camera, after all.
I can't BEGIN to compete with the likes of Judi and Christophe in multi-image compositing, not because it's beyond me but because I'm not personally motivated to hone that skill-set and invest that kind of time. Yet this has never stopped me from ENTERING challenges held under the expert ruleset, and I've done very well in a few of them, as well :-) I quite enjoy that, actually; but that danged Christophe sneaked by me in this one :-)
R.
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12/30/2011 04:03:39 PM · #9 |
| I don't understand...if someone doesn't care for the Expert rule set, as some have mentioned here and in other various threads, why enter and why vote in one? There are other challenges to pick from. I enjoy the expert challenges because they are to only time I can use a texture/overlay. Personally, I'd love to see an expert editing Free Study. I think it could be fun. |
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12/30/2011 03:14:09 PM · #10 |
Christophe, I will send you a PM soon as I think/hope we can communicate better in a slightly more direct way :)
I guess I have been vocal lately regarding Expert editing, but I truly am not trying to have it taken away from DPC and would only hope it would not come up as frequently as it has lately is all. |
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12/30/2011 02:50:22 PM · #11 |
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12/30/2011 02:48:51 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Brent_S:
Please have sympathy for those of us who work a lot of hours Frank! :) |
Brent,
At first I found your crusade against Expert Editing amusing, but now this is becoming insulting. What gives you the right to assume that those spending lot of time on processing (or on their entries in a general way) don't work a lot on their regular job? You don't like that kind of images? Fine. Don't do them. Vote 1 on all them, if you like. But please respect the freedom that everyone has to do what he likes, and to invest time (or not) the way he likes. You are not the only one working hard for your normal job. I sacrifice most of my rare personal time, lots of evening I could spend with my wife while she watches TV alone, or lots of sleeping time doing my images. Moreover, I do know I'm not the only one here doing so. The fact you can't/don't want/don't, does not imply no one else should. Not everyone looks at photography the way you are, which does not mean they are wrong and should immediately stop. Lastly, a challenge on DPC typically gives you 7 days to prepare your entry: it's everyone's own business to organize it the way he wants. If I take a week off, just to spend 140 hours on my entries for the PhotoBowl, that's my plain right. In a sport competition, sportsmen can obviously train as much as they want beforehand, the fact one or some of the participants are not able to, is irrelevant. |
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12/30/2011 02:12:52 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by caba:
I only finished in 13th place, but I had so much fun doing it and learned a few new tricks at the same time. I'm looking forward to the next expert challenge. Maybe the best of 2011 could be expert, just think of the library of images we could use. |
Please have sympathy for those of us who work a lot of hours Frank! :) If there is a Best of 2011 challenge and it is given an Expert ruleset many of us will not have time to participate.
I fully realize that Expert or even Basic processing can do well in an Expert challenge as I have done at least okay with just that scenario myself. But with certain Expert topics you just need to do Expert editing in order to score well. And it is sad that with as many Expert challenges as we have had lately some busy members have been shut out.
And I would hope we will see no Expert challenges during the WPL Photobowl week that begins in just a few days. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of one of these time consuming Expert topics during a league playoff when you are busy and it totally sucks.
I wish both of the teams in the Photobowl well, and would hope they get topics that are more about photography than editing and not so time consuming that all 14 players involved can't give them their best effort. |
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12/30/2011 01:50:30 PM · #14 |
| "Expert" does not always mean bells and whistles. My entry is definitely in the expert ruleset ONLY in that I cloned out the leash. Everything else is almost basic editing. |
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12/30/2011 01:43:51 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
It's not the donuts... it's the cop. He looks like a criminal more than a cop. |
I don't know, most cops are criminals anyway.
The belly gives it away as a cop.
He can't carry the pistol on his belt because he wouldn't be able to reach it... ;-) |
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12/30/2011 01:35:49 PM · #16 |
| It's not the donuts... it's the cop. He looks like a criminal more than a cop. I prefer to see a badge and/or a cop hat, or something tells me he is a cop... other than a gun, which I think they usually carry those on their belts... usually... idea is awesome though, that's a very true observation ;) |
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12/30/2011 01:26:28 PM · #17 |
| Only a dozen, just placed them differently and took lots of shots. |
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12/30/2011 12:01:40 PM · #18 |
| your should have scored higher. how many donuts did you actually really use? |
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12/30/2011 11:41:15 AM · #19 |
| I only finished in 13th place, but I had so much fun doing it and learned a few new tricks at the same time. I'm looking forward to the next expert challenge. Maybe the best of 2011 could be expert, just think of the library of images we could use. |
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12/30/2011 11:07:24 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by bspurgeon:
Only Christophe's is expert In the top 6. |
I am sure he doesn't care about his place here... it was accepted in 1x way before challenge ended. |
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12/30/2011 11:06:55 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by Alexkc:
I meant a different thing: if two images are equally good (even if comparisons are always really hard) the expert one gets a better score and IMHO this is a fact. Obviously under expert ruleset can be created awful images, much worse than under basic or advanced. |
as they should.
people like expert edited entries, so why not score them higher? its not like a blue ribbon that scores a 7 is better than a blue ribbon that scores a 6.5. all entries get rated relative to others in the challenge not against others on the site.
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12/30/2011 11:02:42 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by o2bskating:
damn and i was gonna say it was because you ran out of beer! |
well the head on the beer dies off really quick so i ended up drinking almost two beers during shooting.
i had to suck it down through a straw to keep my fingerprints off the glass. fill it up, run over and hit the shutter, repeat, repeat. You can see the beer at the base for where i was trying to get the head to run down like i got in my submission and it ran all the way down before i had to do it again.
the pretzel tasted good too. |
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12/30/2011 11:00:37 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by Alexkc:
I meant a different thing: if two images are equally good (even if comparisons are always really hard) the expert one gets a better score and IMHO this is a fact. Obiouvsly under expert ruleset can be created awful images, much worse than under basic or advanced. |
+1
Expert editing is a double-edged sword, I agree. Not often talked about in just those terms. |
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12/30/2011 10:27:22 AM · #24 |
| damn and i was gonna say it was because you ran out of beer! |
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12/30/2011 10:22:04 AM · #25 |
i kind of misled you, i swapped out the background with a shot i took earlier in the setup, mainly becuase it has less noise since it was taken at a lower iso. I could have left it, but hey since i was allowed to swap it out, why not right?
the glass and pretzel setup is 100% real. |
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