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11/11/2011 02:51:30 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Here's a very interesting perspective, courtesy of Sports Illustrated.
R. |
Great article and most certainly puts things into perspective.
... and for those who might suggest that people can't report situations such as this ... I can assure you that it most certainly can and should be the norm.
There is a vast amount of difference is reporting what you perceive to be a crime and making false accusations. The old adage "...an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" would seem applicable in scenarios such as this.
Ray |
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11/11/2011 02:03:15 PM · #2 |
Here's a very interesting perspective, courtesy of Sports Illustrated.
R.
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11/11/2011 01:38:06 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
my whole argument is that everyone seems to be on a witchhunt to hold everyone else accountable for the actions of one and while they played a part in the enabling, they didn't commit the crime, but they did contribute to allowing these action to continue repeatedly, but WE dont know to what extent it occurred, so WE shouldn't cast judgement on them, yet.
However they all deserved to lose their jobs, its clear that they were all aware on some level of a sick, heinous crime and at the minimum they deserve to be removed from the institution either willingly or forced, I dont think anyone has any basis to dispute that. |
How can you say in one sentence not to judge and then in the very next sentence judge them? Obviously you're judging them to a point where you feel they should lose their jobs automatically. I have no issue with that since it seems pretty clear to me that there were multiple instances where the higher ups were told something was going on. These are adults, they shouldn't need every last graphic detail to act. They knew that Sandusky was involved in inappropriate behavior with children, on their property no less. Unless you approve of the behavior how do you not immediately act? And by that I mean more than telling the guy to go do it somewhere else. There's not one scenario I can think of that doesn't paint these people in a horrible light. The only question is how harsh is that light.
Message edited by author 2011-11-11 13:40:05. |
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11/11/2011 12:45:38 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
The report did say:
"The graduate assistant reported the incident to Paterno, who in turn alerted Athletic Director Timothy Curley, Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly said earlier this week."
If that's the case, who knows whether he should have been fired. However, not only was this child/(these children) abused, but they were also children part of a charity for children who were already having difficulties in life. Do you really think that they're going to come out of this whole?
No one did anything. The media is running rampant -- but now people are looking into it. Things will be done to try to make sure it doesn't happen again. This should have happened 9 years ago. I can't feel too bad for the people involved, since they didn't take care of it in the first place. They had their opportunity.
If I see a house burning down, and I just sit and watch it burn, knowing there's people inside, and I don't call 911 because I'm afraid of dialing the phone, or I'm afraid that they might think I set the fire, or because I was too busy taking pictures, you can't tell me that I'm just an innocent bystander.
People just don't realize how sexual abuse can change a person's entire life, and not for the good. You need to sit down and talk to my friend. Maybe you'd have a different take on this. |
put it this way, Sandusky deserves whatever hell he has in store and then some. this is a sick, sick crime, worse than murder if you ask me.
my whole argument is that everyone seems to be on a witchhunt to hold everyone else accountable for the actions of one and while they played a part in the enabling, they didn't commit the crime, but they did contribute to allowing these action to continue repeatedly, but WE dont know to what extent it occurred, so WE shouldn't cast judgement on them, yet.
However they all deserved to lose their jobs, its clear that they were all aware on some level of a sick, heinous crime and at the minimum they deserve to be removed from the institution either willingly or forced, I dont think anyone has any basis to dispute that.
Message edited by author 2011-11-11 12:49:24. |
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11/11/2011 12:30:36 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by vawendy:
The boy was around 10 years old. I don't care what the fine details are. I would think that it's always more important to protect a small child than to protect a sick adult. |
completely agree, but we also dont know why he didn't intervene, maybe it was cowardice, shock, who knows.
we also dont know why he kept quiet, heck the original DA decided not to prosecute? why? that's pretty telling in itself, plus he is missing?
if the authorities decided not to prosecute what do you do, do you make it your life's mission to out this guy?
calling for people to lose their jobs is one thing but calling for them to be hung, dragged quartered, shot in the head or even threaten his life over coaching a football game this weekend is going too far without knowing all the facts. |
I'm not talking drawing and quartering. However, I certainly believe it should be looked into at all levels. Everyone is thinking about the coaches, but I haven't heard people talking about the child.
I actually know a couple of people who have been sexual abused as children. I know that they are still struggling 20-30 years after the fact. Did anyone do anything for the child at the time? Did he get counseling? Did he get help? It sounds like there was more than one child. Did anyone help them?
Did they change the rules so that coaches, professors, etc at a college are responsible for reporting possible cases of child abuse? You may think that it's adults that go to college. I was a minor when I started college, because I graduated early.
But this child was approximately 10 years old. This is not something that should be ignored because it happened awhile ago. This is not something that should be ignored because he's a great coach. And let's face it -- people are so upset because these people are being tried in the media. Seriously, do you think anything would have happened without the media? How many years ago did this start? Did anyone take the rape of a 10 year old child seriously enough to take some action?
The report did say:
"The graduate assistant reported the incident to Paterno, who in turn alerted Athletic Director Timothy Curley, Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly said earlier this week."
If that's the case, who knows whether he should have been fired. However, not only was this child/(these children) abused, but they were also children part of a charity for children who were already having difficulties in life. Do you really think that they're going to come out of this whole?
No one did anything. The media is running rampant -- but now people are looking into it. Things will be done to try to make sure it doesn't happen again. This should have happened 9 years ago. I can't feel too bad for the people involved, since they didn't take care of it in the first place. They had their opportunity.
If I see a house burning down, and I just sit and watch it burn, knowing there's people inside, and I don't call 911 because I'm afraid of dialing the phone, or I'm afraid that they might think I set the fire, or because I was too busy taking pictures, you can't tell me that I'm just an innocent bystander.
People just don't realize how sexual abuse can change a person's entire life, and not for the good. You need to sit down and talk to my friend. Maybe you'd have a different take on this. |
+1
Message edited by author 2011-11-11 12:31:54. |
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11/11/2011 12:11:33 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by vawendy:
The boy was around 10 years old. I don't care what the fine details are. I would think that it's always more important to protect a small child than to protect a sick adult. |
completely agree, but we also dont know why he didn't intervene, maybe it was cowardice, shock, who knows.
we also dont know why he kept quiet, heck the original DA decided not to prosecute? why? that's pretty telling in itself, plus he is missing?
if the authorities decided not to prosecute what do you do, do you make it your life's mission to out this guy?
calling for people to lose their jobs is one thing but calling for them to be hung, dragged quartered, shot in the head or even threaten his life over coaching a football game this weekend is going too far without knowing all the facts. |
I'm not talking drawing and quartering. However, I certainly believe it should be looked into at all levels. Everyone is thinking about the coaches, but I haven't heard people talking about the child.
I actually know a couple of people who have been sexual abused as children. I know that they are still struggling 20-30 years after the fact. Did anyone do anything for the child at the time? Did he get counseling? Did he get help? It sounds like there was more than one child. Did anyone help them?
Did they change the rules so that coaches, professors, etc at a college are responsible for reporting possible cases of child abuse? You may think that it's adults that go to college. I was a minor when I started college, because I graduated early.
But this child was approximately 10 years old. This is not something that should be ignored because it happened awhile ago. This is not something that should be ignored because he's a great coach. And let's face it -- people are so upset because these people are being tried in the media. Seriously, do you think anything would have happened without the media? How many years ago did this start? Did anyone take the rape of a 10 year old child seriously enough to take some action?
The report did say:
"The graduate assistant reported the incident to Paterno, who in turn alerted Athletic Director Timothy Curley, Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly said earlier this week."
If that's the case, who knows whether he should have been fired. However, not only was this child/(these children) abused, but they were also children part of a charity for children who were already having difficulties in life. Do you really think that they're going to come out of this whole?
No one did anything. The media is running rampant -- but now people are looking into it. Things will be done to try to make sure it doesn't happen again. This should have happened 9 years ago. I can't feel too bad for the people involved, since they didn't take care of it in the first place. They had their opportunity.
If I see a house burning down, and I just sit and watch it burn, knowing there's people inside, and I don't call 911 because I'm afraid of dialing the phone, or I'm afraid that they might think I set the fire, or because I was too busy taking pictures, you can't tell me that I'm just an innocent bystander.
People just don't realize how sexual abuse can change a person's entire life, and not for the good. You need to sit down and talk to my friend. Maybe you'd have a different take on this.
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11/11/2011 11:11:39 AM · #7 |
Unlike the "innocent until proven guilty" model, Paterno is the Bystander, most don't think what he did was "illegal" but he himself admits he was wrong.
What you really have is a media swarm around a heinous underlying crime that really hits Paterno hard in two ways:
1. The almost instant response of the blog-o-sphere and media "scandal police" shotgun-sprayed the facts and allegations, who really knows who knew what.
2. Paterno underestimated the magnitude of the situation, perhaps based upon pride and 60 years of being in charge, and he should have looked into it a bit more, and released a more humble statement and possibly a quick resignation, rather than an announcement to retire at the end of the year. That to me showed a vainglorious attitude, a gross miscalculation that could not be forgiven, in the open waters, where guilt-by-association to pedophiles and rapists makes it almost impossible to defend any position once you are "in the circle."
And perhaps rightly so, and proving the phrase "Pride comes before a fall" quite correct.
I also want to say,  Mike_311 , you have done a great job of presenting this and responding in this thread.
Message edited by author 2011-11-11 11:12:48. |
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11/11/2011 08:46:25 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
The boy was around 10 years old. I don't care what the fine details are. I would think that it's always more important to protect a small child than to protect a sick adult. |
completely agree, but we also dont know why he didn't intervene, maybe it was cowardice, shock, who knows.
we also dont know why he kept quiet, heck the original DA decided not to prosecute? why? that's pretty telling in itself, plus he is missing?
if the authorities decided not to prosecute what do you do, do you make it your life's mission to out this guy?
calling for people to lose their jobs is one thing but calling for them to be hung, dragged quartered, shot in the head or even threaten his life over coaching a football game this weekend is going too far without knowing all the facts.
Message edited by author 2011-11-11 08:47:24. |
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11/11/2011 08:05:12 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Germaine:
I'm not making apologies for Paterno, but it seems to me that McQueary should be led out and shot, followed by Curley and Schultz. For a grand finale they can hang, draw, and quarter Spanier.
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you shouldn't draw conclusions into the mindset of another person based on how you think you would have reacted in a certain situation, i know someone tried to do it earlier, but until you are put in that same situation you have no idea how you'd act, you may think you do, but you dont know detail about this situation there is still a lot more than we all know. In any other situation McQueary may have acted just as you say you would but there could a fine detail being overlooked that drove his inaction. |
The boy was around 10 years old. I don't care what the fine details are. I would think that it's always more important to protect a small child than to protect a sick adult.
Message edited by author 2011-11-11 08:05:59. |
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11/11/2011 07:22:57 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:
Is there any short summary about the scandal? Haven't heard about it... |
//www.cnn.com/2011/11/10/justice/pennsylvania-coach-abuse/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
recent article that gives good background. |
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11/11/2011 07:15:20 AM · #11 |
Is there any short summary about the scandal? Haven't heard about it...
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11/11/2011 07:13:58 AM · #12 |
I made it to page 2 of the report and had to stop.
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11/11/2011 06:07:34 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Germaine:
I'm not making apologies for Paterno, but it seems to me that McQueary should be led out and shot, followed by Curley and Schultz. For a grand finale they can hang, draw, and quarter Spanier.
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you shouldn't draw conclusions into the mindset of another person based on how you think you would have reacted in a certain situation, i know someone tried to do it earlier, but until you are put in that same situation you have no idea how you'd act, you may think you do, but you dont know detail about this situation there is still a lot more than we all know. In any other situation McQueary may have acted just as you say you would but there could a fine detail being overlooked that drove his inaction.
Message edited by author 2011-11-11 06:08:30. |
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11/11/2011 12:20:58 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by Germaine:
It would be interesting to know how the law was written back in 1998 and 2002. Here's a link to the current Pennsylvania Code regarding the mandatory reporting of child abuse. Take a look at Section 16.102(b) which seems to cover Paterno and his ilk. I'm a lay person, but to me, it looks as if the law is facilitating cover-ups. |
That section covers "mandatory reporting" by "board-rated practitioners".
By their definition: "Board-regulated practitioner—A medical doctor, physician assistant, nurse midwife, certified registered nurse practitioner, respiratory care practitioner, drugless therapist, acupuncturist, practitioner of Oriental medicine or auxiliary personnel performing radiologic procedures on the premises of a medical doctor."
The law does not seem to mandate reporting by anyone else. It seems to me it's basically saying that issues of doctor-patient privilege don't apply in the case of suspected child abuse.
I could be reading it wrong...
R.
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11/10/2011 11:21:12 PM · #15 |
It would be interesting to know how the law was written back in 1998 and 2002. Here's a link to the current Pennsylvania Code regarding the mandatory reporting of child abuse. Take a look at Section 16.102(b) which seems to cover Paterno and his ilk. I'm a lay person, but to me, it looks as if the law is facilitating cover-ups.
Having said that, I cannot imagine why McQueary, having caught Sandusky in the act, did nothing to stop him. How could he just turn his back and leave that child. There was just a case in Los Angeles where two middle school students ran-off a man who tried to attack one of their female classmates. If kids that age know what to do, what was wrong with this university graduate ex-quarterback??
And if McQueary was going to call Paterno, why did he wait until the next day, and why did it take so long for the honchos to interview him. Ten days to get back to him on an allegation like this? And then we have Curley who is the head of the athletic department, Schulz who oversees the campus police, and Spanier, the university president knowing what was going on and not reporting it. To use a cliche, the mind boggles.
I'm not making apologies for Paterno, but it seems to me that McQueary should be led out and shot, followed by Curley and Schultz. For a grand finale they can hang, draw, and quarter Spanier.
They never should have let Penn State into the Big Ten. |
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11/10/2011 10:49:32 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Uhh... An employer is not unilaterally responsible for the on duty actions of thei employees.
If an employee uses a company truck and strikes another car, in performance of his or her duties, then the company insurance will be the payor of the damages. If a company employee decides to speed in the company truck, and then runs from the cops, the supervisor is not arrested for speeding or resisting arrest...
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Awww, AM, almost anybody can argue the fine points of the law better than I can. but consider, if the supervisor above hired a guy with a propensity to hit and run then he's in some way (IMO) responsible for the guy's actions. It's his duty to hire reliable people.
But, really, this is a little side discussion and could be construed as a red herring, drawing debate away from the real point of the thread. So, I'll shut up now. |
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11/10/2011 10:39:23 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by o2bskating:
don't get me wrong i'm for the death penalty but from what i hear what they do to ppl like him in jail is far worse than dying!! |
I can think of a few things that I would do to the man. I feel like torture is not a bad thing for people who have tortured others.
It makes me sick that he will be getting food, water, shelter, entertainment at times, and a life. The list can go on... |
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11/10/2011 10:38:31 PM · #18 |
The employer/employee analogy doesn't fly. Sandusky was the defensive coordinator. The offensive and defensive coordinators are one step down from the head coach. This wasn't some worker in a distant cubicle, it was Paterno's right hand man.
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11/10/2011 10:03:36 PM · #19 |
Uhh... An employer is not unilaterally responsible for the on duty actions of thei employees.
If an employee uses a company truck and strikes another car, in performance of his or her duties, then the company insurance will be the payor of the damages. If a company employee decides to speed in the company truck, and then runs from the cops, the supervisor is not arrested for speeding or resisting arrest.
Now, if your employee drives the company vehicle while drunk, and you know, or should have reasonably been expected to know (the employee comes in drunk and it has been pointed out to you, or you have witnessed it), and there is an accident, you may be held as negligent or even criminally negligent.
What I find most interesting is that not too long ago there was an execution of a cop killer, and there was a lot of discussion about how barbaric the American justice system was. A child is involved and there are plenty of people howling for blood. Not much mention of innocence until proven guilty today.
Let me say at this point, if it was my child there likely would be blood. I also feel for the families and children who were victims here. I just find the difference in reaction interesting. Punish the guilty, but don't turn it into a witch hunt killing everything that moves. Find out who knew what and when. What they did and what they failed to do. Then dispense justice. |
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11/10/2011 08:25:54 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
So let's say YOU have an employee who was accused of similar crimes. You knew nothing about it, had nothing to do with it, never covered it up. And you would be fine being fired and having your life destroyed with virtually no hope of ever getting a decent job again? All because it happened "under your watch?"
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Alan - let me take a stab at this one.
The person who is the employer is responsible for the on-duty actions of his/her employees.
The employer promulgates rules of behavior which must be adhered to, right?
If wrongful behavior happens, and is discovered, established rules must be in place.
This is the responsibility of the employer.
the employer cannot say "I didn't know about it" when established rules were not enforced.
It is, purely and simply, the employer's responsibility to enforce those established rules.
Especially when the "rules" that are broken are criminal actions.
There is a saying, "With trust comes responsibility."
or the even more powerful saying:
"With great power, comes great responsibility."
Think about it. Does this fit the circumstances? |
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11/10/2011 07:53:19 PM · #21 |
| don't get me wrong i'm for the death penalty but from what i hear what they do to ppl like him in jail is far worse than dying!! |
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11/10/2011 07:37:28 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by o2bskating:
i can think of much better punishments than that death is too easy |
Death is the easy way out. Just send him to jail.. Karma can be a pain in the ass.. |
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11/10/2011 07:02:51 PM · #23 |
| i can think of much better punishments than that death is too easy |
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11/10/2011 06:42:08 PM · #24 |
Pretty sure we can all agree that the way he handled it was morally wrong. Simple enough, right?
I vote death penalty for Sandusky... Just me though. |
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11/10/2011 05:18:47 PM · #25 |
But Joe did know or at least had a serious reason to suspect something.
Originally posted by alanfreed:
So let's say YOU have an employee who was accused of similar crimes. You knew nothing about it, had nothing to do with it, never covered it up. And you would be fine being fired and having your life destroyed with virtually no hope of ever getting a decent job again? All because it happened "under your watch?"
Originally posted by posthumous:
Frankly, even if Paterno knew nothing, it's still good to fire him. Bishops and coaches need to be accountable for what goes on under their watch. |
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