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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> The 6.0 Barrier
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Showing posts 1 - 25 of 45, descending (reverse)
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09/08/2011 08:49:39 AM · #1
After the August Free Study, I don't have a clue. 5.9928
09/07/2011 05:04:50 PM · #2
Originally posted by kirbic:

One other thing I've seen posted in the past, and that I agree with, is: VOTE! The process of judging images makes us think about what is a good image and what is not, and enables us (hopefully) to more easily and objectively see the good and bad in our own work.

Steve says he spent time commenting on all images he voted 5 on. Not bad, per se. But not inspiring either.
That's probably a good idea.
09/07/2011 05:02:14 PM · #3
One other thing I've seen posted in the past, and that I agree with, is: VOTE! The process of judging images makes us think about what is a good image and what is not, and enables us (hopefully) to more easily and objectively see the good and bad in our own work.
09/07/2011 04:58:01 PM · #4
Originally posted by MargaretN:

I personally think that it is best to decide what you like the most and keep on learning how to improve your images.


Originally posted by mike_311:

i found that the more time i spent/dedicated to shooting rather than just bringing the camera along equated to better scores.


Originally posted by NiallOTuama:

I think the biggest contributor to this is deciding on what to shoot before I shoot and considering what aspects would support the image

I've snipped and excerpted here.....I don't necessarily think any of these techniques would have worked for me. I always bring the camera along, and though I do have certain subject matter that appeals to me more than others, I don't miss an opportunity to shoot different things. I find the more I set things up, the more contrived they look. My progress comes from constantly working at it.

Point is......figure out where, and how, you get your most enjoyment and have the greatest success. As you can see by the various tips and techniques, there will also be someone here to help. Just ask.....
09/07/2011 04:00:09 PM · #5
Originally posted by sinistral_leo:

It also seems like high scores where handed out more liberally in the past. like this, for example Great shot, but 8.5!!!

True - especially in the early days. But your example would still score in the high 6's or into the 7's, and could very well still snag the blue (depending on the challenge).
09/07/2011 01:17:37 PM · #6

i found that recently my scores have almost all been over 6. two of them came from my vacation where i dedicated time to go out and shoot. i found that the more time i spent/dedicated to shooting rather than just bringing the camera along equated to better scores. with the exception of the free study which is an image i stumbled across accidentally while shooting another subject, I had an idea in place ahead of time what i wanted to shoot and how i wanted to approach it.

09/07/2011 01:06:51 PM · #7
I'm far from an expert here but recently I've been shooting well above my average relatively consistently. I think the biggest contributor to this is deciding on what to shoot before I shoot and considering what aspects would support the image before its too late in pp. It doesn't always result in 6+ but contributes to a higher score I think. Sketching out what I intent to get also helps for composition a great deal (got that idea from gyaban)
09/07/2011 12:09:19 PM · #8
Originally posted by MargaretN:

Originally posted by JH:

So, you can either a) shoot for yourself, or b) shoot to score. Some people are fortunate that they can do both, and enjoy it.
That's what happened to me - when I decided that I like to shoot mainly landscapes my scores went up dramatically. I personally think that it is best to decide what you like the most and keep on learning how to improve your images. There are many ways, I like to look at the work of others and then pick from it what I like the most. Your scores will go up proportionally to the effort you will put into it.


Maybe I am just 'tarded. But, I like to shoot everything. I love Candid's as much as I like Landscapes. I like Black and White Emotive Pieces, and fun color candy shots. The only thing I am not big on is Still Life, but even that might appeal to me at some point. I don't know if it is necessary for me to pick a specialty. . .I always figured that would come in time. LOL.
09/07/2011 11:35:57 AM · #9
Originally posted by JH:

So, you can either a) shoot for yourself, or b) shoot to score. Some people are fortunate that they can do both, and enjoy it.
That's what happened to me - when I decided that I like to shoot mainly landscapes my scores went up dramatically. I personally think that it is best to decide what you like the most and keep on learning how to improve your images. There are many ways, I like to look at the work of others and then pick from it what I like the most. Your scores will go up proportionally to the effort you will put into it.
09/07/2011 11:12:59 AM · #10
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

As long as you shoot for score, you will be constantly disappointed and have the feeling of falling short.

To break the 6.0 barrier, I actually took the opposite approach.

I analysed ribbon winners, I figured out what types of image had mass-DPC appeal, and what the voters liked. And I kept that idea in my head from the moment I composed the shot through the editing and the final output from Photoshop.

This was a kind of analytical/logical approach aimed primarily at breaking the top ten. In a way I wanted to prove that I could create an image that people would vote highly.

In retrospect, I didn't really enjoy the experience. It limited creativity, and I found it very frustrating and tedious.

So, you can either a) shoot for yourself, or b) shoot to score. Some people are fortunate that they can do both, and enjoy it.
09/07/2011 11:02:13 AM · #11
Luck, intuition, perseverance, level of enjoyment, and confortability..... Yes, I have some good stuff, but I shoot mostly on semi-auto, I edit for what I like, I've spent enough time, and shot tons of images, and I've paid attention to trying to develop what it is that I like and do best.

As long as you shoot for score, you will be constantly disappointed and have the feeling of falling short. Screw the score! Shoot, shoot, shoot......pay attention to what and why it is that you pushed the shutter, and go with that. What you'll start to see is that the more you shoot, the better you will get with your equipment at getting the shot that you saw in your mind's eye and strove to get when you took the shot.

I'm by no stretch a great photographer, but I can pretty much shoot and edit the shot I envision simply because I make it a point to shoot all the time. This is because I finally got to the point where I realized I am shooting for my own progress and delight, and so I needed to look at my work for what I wanted to develop as opposed to what's "wrong" with the image. The positive perspective is what makes the difference for me. I'm charmed, delighted, amazed, curious, thrilled, or any combination of the aforesaid *every* time I push the shutter. There was something about the scene that made me put my camera to my eye to compose the shot. My only interest from that point is to convey that something to an image that can be shared by others. I know that sounds simplistic, but for me it really is that simple.

I should point out as well that this community can be everything you need to you in your quest for learning and knowledge. I have been directed, instructed, cajoled, encouraged, had my hand held when I was disgruntled and discouraged, and lauded when something really went well. I've had at least two serious mentors here, and numerous people to whom I know I can turn to at a moment's notice. I doubt very seriously that I would be better, or possibly even as capable, and by that I mean comfortable and confident in my work, through conventional channels like photography school.

Oh......I had full Photoshop CS2 for a while, and I now use Elements 9 and Topaz Adjust. I like Elements because it's so much less complicated, and I used so little of the capabilities of CS that it seemed like a waste for me. Elements 9 actually seems to me to be better than what my CS2 was anyway.......I certainly have much more edit ability in the RAW converter with Elements. I find it quite easy to use.

I guess the bottom line of this rambling missive is that I was a completely ignorant hack when I got here, and through the many aspects of this site and this community, I'm a capable and competent photographer.

And boy do I *LOVE* photography more than I ever did! Good luck. Relax, shoot, shoot some more, and let time and practice work for you......in your time, in your way, with the help of the good people here.
09/06/2011 06:03:54 PM · #12
In regards to the tools used, I think balance is key. Once you feel like you have taken your camera or lens or editing software to the peak of THEIR ability, that's when I feel it's time to upgrade. In regards to plugins though, I don't necessarily feel the quality of my images now that I use topaz and nik plugins, are a great deal higher than they were before. Photoshop by itself is a very powerful tool, and as said before, the plugins aren't usually doing much that photoshop veterans couldn't do without them.
That said, the insane BW options in SE2 as well as the skin softener and tonal contrast in Color EfX Pro 3 save me SO much time in daily editing, they have payed for themselves imo.

But then again what do I know, my first challenge entry doesn't close until tonight!

Message edited by author 2011-09-06 18:05:18.
09/06/2011 05:08:51 PM · #13
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by Alex_Europa:

So in other words, it's a rare day when doing some basic work in Lightroom followed up by Unsharp Mask (depending on the subject of course) in CS3 will get me a 6+ score on DPC?

If so which programs are those who are consistantly at the top using? Topaz Adjust? What is "SE2," a Google search didn't help at all.

Since I know that my tone may come across as bitter in this post, I would just like to preemtively state that there is no negativity at all in my questions, just seeking clarification. :-)

- Alex


Alex,
Don't ask "which tools will help me." It's entirely possible for a very minimally edited shot to score well over 6. It's also possible (heck, common!) for a technically perfect, masterfully-and-painstakingly-edited shot to tank. The components of a high score are:

- Connection with the viewer. An emotional connection (yes, a positive emotion helps) is essential
- Connection to the challenge. No shoehorns please. If perceived as a shoehorn, you will lose points, guaranteed.
- Basic Technicals. Compositional elements, exposure, white balance, and proper point of focus (where appropriate)
- Appropriateness of processing to the scene. Some scenes work well with over-the-top processing, some simply suck because of it, demanding a light-handed approach
- Technical excellence. This helps, but is in no way a prerequisite. A technically imperfect image that really grabs the viewer emotionally and has a solid connection to the challenge will out-score a technically perfect image that does not evoke emotion in the viewer, and does not solidly meet the challenge (as determined by the voters)

The above list is certainly not exhaustive. It is in approximate order of importance; the exact order may be debated.
FWIW, I've often entered images that *I* like and that I know will not do extremely well. My August Free Study entry is one. It's technically very good, but it is a portrait, and one that I don't expect the viewers to have a strong emotional reaction to. As such I expected a score in the 5.x range, and I have not been disappointed, LOL. The important thing is that I like it.

A final word about technical excellence. It is of highly variable value. It is essential to some images, e.g. landscape or insect macro, however is nearly irrelevant to more abstract images, in fact one could argue that the *lack* of technical "excellence" is exactly what makes such an image compelling. As always, photography is art, and so the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


Thank you for the insightful post...I'm still dumbfounded though when I compare what you posted with my Lens Flare entry. I know it was a tough challenge and from the Flare thread, it seems that the voting may be overcritical across the board (except for the few exceptional entries), but I feel like I really nailed the emotive and processing portions but am well below a 6 (5.59 currently). It wasn't a winner, there are far too many great photographers on this site, but I thought that it was surely worthy of 6+.

But I really like the image, and as you said, that's all that really matters. I'll keep shooting what I enjoy and the chips will fall as they may.

- Alex
09/06/2011 05:08:26 PM · #14
Take photography and art classes. Shoot what you like.
09/06/2011 04:42:34 PM · #15
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Watching videos to see others editing their work is a huge opportunity, especially for those of us who are self taught in Photoshop. There are quite a few on the net, as well as in CDs that come with various photo magazines. The full photoshop program is so huge that it gets daunting for the self taught, and one tends to travel the same narrow path through the workflow.

Looking at your work Mike, I wonder if you have ever messed around with the multiply layer? It can give a richness to the colors and a nice pop to the contrast that might make the difference in breaking that 6 barrier. Mess around with all the levers and layers, from your portfolio I would guess that your sub six scores have less to do with what you are pointing your camera at than how you cook your images.

Cartier-Bresson said "I am a hunter, not a cook" and had others do his darkroom work. Here you have to hunt down the right image, and spice it up correctly.


I appreciate your comments about Photoshop and about the multiply layer, because, while I often use alternate layers in advanced editing, I have yet to try multiply for color enhancement. I still have a lot to learn in that area. BTW, I loved your Allegorical Image Entry (one of the coolest shots I've seen in a while).
09/06/2011 04:30:09 PM · #16
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Sliver Effects.


OUCH! ;-)
09/06/2011 04:29:10 PM · #17
Originally posted by Alex_Europa:

So in other words, it's a rare day when doing some basic work in Lightroom followed up by Unsharp Mask (depending on the subject of course) in CS3 will get me a 6+ score on DPC?

If so which programs are those who are consistantly at the top using? Topaz Adjust? What is "SE2," a Google search didn't help at all.

Since I know that my tone may come across as bitter in this post, I would just like to preemtively state that there is no negativity at all in my questions, just seeking clarification. :-)

- Alex


Alex,
Don't ask "which tools will help me." It's entirely possible for a very minimally edited shot to score well over 6. It's also possible (heck, common!) for a technically perfect, masterfully-and-painstakingly-edited shot to tank. The components of a high score are:

- Connection with the viewer. An emotional connection (yes, a positive emotion helps) is essential
- Connection to the challenge. No shoehorns please. If perceived as a shoehorn, you will lose points, guaranteed.
- Basic Technicals. Compositional elements, exposure, white balance, and proper point of focus (where appropriate)
- Appropriateness of processing to the scene. Some scenes work well with over-the-top processing, some simply suck because of it, demanding a light-handed approach
- Technical excellence. This helps, but is in no way a prerequisite. A technically imperfect image that really grabs the viewer emotionally and has a solid connection to the challenge will out-score a technically perfect image that does not evoke emotion in the viewer, and does not solidly meet the challenge (as determined by the voters)

The above list is certainly not exhaustive. It is in approximate order of importance; the exact order may be debated.
FWIW, I've often entered images that *I* like and that I know will not do extremely well. My August Free Study entry is one. It's technically very good, but it is a portrait, and one that I don't expect the viewers to have a strong emotional reaction to. As such I expected a score in the 5.x range, and I have not been disappointed, LOL. The important thing is that I like it.

A final word about technical excellence. It is of highly variable value. It is essential to some images, e.g. landscape or insect macro, however is nearly irrelevant to more abstract images, in fact one could argue that the *lack* of technical "excellence" is exactly what makes such an image compelling. As always, photography is art, and so the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
09/06/2011 04:26:11 PM · #18
Sliver Efex.

the plugins and the filters make the photoshop work easier and faster, but they don't really do anything a whole lot of knowledge in PS can do, stuff like Topaz just puts some nice effects within the reach of fools like me.

edit to fixy linky

Message edited by author 2011-09-06 17:12:12.
09/06/2011 04:12:42 PM · #19
So in other words, it's a rare day when doing some basic work in Lightroom followed up by Unsharp Mask (depending on the subject of course) in CS3 will get me a 6+ score on DPC?

If so which programs are those who are consistantly at the top using? Topaz Adjust? What is "SE2," a Google search didn't help at all.

Since I know that my tone may come across as bitter in this post, I would just like to preemtively state that there is no negativity at all in my questions, just seeking clarification. :-)

- Alex
09/06/2011 03:54:18 PM · #20
Good stuff here, I often ask myself "What am I doing wrong", Especially when I look at submissions that scored very well and I just can't see why they did.

It also seems like high scores where handed out more liberally in the past. like this, for example Great shot, but 8.5!!!
09/06/2011 03:27:02 PM · #21
Watching videos to see others editing their work is a huge opportunity, especially for those of us who are self taught in Photoshop. There are quite a few on the net, as well as in CDs that come with various photo magazines. The full photoshop program is so huge that it gets daunting for the self taught, and one tends to travel the same narrow path through the workflow.

Looking at your work Mike, I wonder if you have ever messed around with the multiply layer? It can give a richness to the colors and a nice pop to the contrast that might make the difference in breaking that 6 barrier. Mess around with all the levers and layers, from your portfolio I would guess that your sub six scores have less to do with what you are pointing your camera at than how you cook your images.

Cartier-Bresson said "I am a hunter, not a cook" and had others do his darkroom work. Here you have to hunt down the right image, and spice it up correctly.
09/06/2011 03:13:38 PM · #22
Originally posted by crowis:

I have been shooting on this site for a while. Not as long as my profile might indicate, as I shot for a few months and then vacated for almost four years. . . I have been shooting pretty steadily for a while again and am happy to report that when I first started I could barely chip above 5.0, and now I have several photos scoring in the high fives. I even have reached the point where I know where an entry is likely to fall--and some do poorly. The question I have is, "What is it I'm missing?" What is the difference between a 6.25 and a 5.9 shot? What I have often found is that bitching about how low my scores are is a sign there is something other photagraphers are seeing that I am not. . . So, what is the difference between a high 5.0 shot or person scoring regularly at that level, and a shot or person scoring above that?


Looking at your portfolio and challenge entries ... your technique and composition are coming along fine. Keep working on them and expect them to get better.

The first thing I'd suggest is to think about the story your photo tells, or you want to tell through your photo. If you don't know the story, you're in trouble. Viewers see lots of technically perfect photos, but with out a story, it's like Mozart played by a robot ... no feeling ... no emotion. Make me laugh, make me cry, make me happy, make me mad with your photo. Suggest trying for the next dozen challenge entries to tell a story with your subject and your treatment of the subject.

The second thing I'd suggest is find a regular source of photographic information besides DPC. Tim Gray has a daily email that's full of useful stuff (about 70% of the time) and comes in tiny doses you can internalize. The Kelby training is pretty good. Each time one of these little stimulants resonates with you ... shoot something with that stimulant in mind. It will shake up your imagination and let you practice a few new things every once in awhile.
09/06/2011 03:03:51 PM · #23
Originally posted by Marc923:

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by gcoulson:

If I simply walk around aimlessly shooting and hoping for an entry, that's when the crashing and burning happens.

Interesting, because walking around aimlessly looking for a good entry often works quite well for me. I can often recognize the good subject and light when it presents itself to me. I have a good tourist trap location for doing that sort of semi-random shooting, however. Another thing that may tie in with my earlier post is that I have realized what I like about photography is exploration of the world, rather than creation of scenes a studio.


Ditto. My best scores are shots I just happened to have that fit a challenge. My set-up shots fail miserably.


+1
09/06/2011 03:00:16 PM · #24
Originally posted by dtremain:

(on the critical side, not the generous one...)

Excellent point. One thing I did for a long time was to put a list of anticipated critiques in my pre-challenge notes helped me to look at my own entries with a more critical eye. It was also a fun game to see if someone left the anticipated critique.

Message edited by author 2011-09-06 15:00:59.
09/06/2011 02:57:50 PM · #25
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by gcoulson:

If I simply walk around aimlessly shooting and hoping for an entry, that's when the crashing and burning happens.

Interesting, because walking around aimlessly looking for a good entry often works quite well for me. I can often recognize the good subject and light when it presents itself to me. I have a good tourist trap location for doing that sort of semi-random shooting, however. Another thing that may tie in with my earlier post is that I have realized what I like about photography is exploration of the world, rather than creation of scenes a studio.


Ditto. My best scores are shots I just happened to have that fit a challenge. My set-up shots fail miserably.
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