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02/09/2011 11:39:07 AM · #1 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Look at the US. This country. after 9/11 there was a lot of patriotism, lots of hoohah and brovado, but how many of us were really ready to go to war. I mean enlisting, not just "supporting the war". Sure we talked a big game, but those who enlisted were either career military men and women, those who didn't have many other options in life or young men and women looking for a purpose.
Those of us with good jobs and families couldn't be bothered. Why? Because we have more meaningful things to do than to fight and kill each other. |
That's bullshit. I have a family, and a good job...the only reason I didn't enlist and head downrange after 9/11 is that I have a non-waiverable physical condition that I didn't discover until the Med screening at MEPS. I would have been just ahead of the age limit that was in place at the time. I know plenty of others who stepped up and enlisted, re-enlisted or who were in the reserves who requested activation... Professionals...Lawyers, engineers, doctors etc. People with lives and good jobs. |
there are exceptions. |
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02/09/2011 11:25:27 AM · #2 |
after invading two defenseless nations, we should then produce a list of usa atrocities to match yours? our permanent war footing and empire building since WW2 caused each and every one of you items AND a longer, much longer, list of dead maimed and displaced in afghanistan and iraq. and it continues as I write. sadly our actions are not even in the morally bankrupt eye for an eye category - simply hubris, empire and the zeal to secure "usa interests" (read oil and other resources we want to take and control). we treat every crime as a chance for war. the old cliche comes to mind: when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. sad.
Originally posted by wingyisleeds:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Here are 3,497 reason's why it should not be forgotten:
In total 3,497 people died in the attacks on 11 September 2001.
2,735 civilians in the World Trade Center died
87 passengers and crew members aboard American Airlines Flight 11 that hit the North Tower
60 passengers and crew aboard United Flight 175 that hit the South Tower
343 New York City firefighters and rescue workers and 23 New York City law enforcement officers, 47 Port Authority workers and 37 Port Authority Police Officers, lost their lives when they rushed in to save the victims in the World Trade Center
36 passengers and crew aboard United Flight 93, who gave their lives stopping four hijackers over Pennsylvania
64 passengers and crew aboard American Airlines Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon, killing them and 125 people in the building.
In addition
19 - the terrorists who hijacked four airliners and murdered 3,497 people - also died. |
And the total number of deaths keep accumulating from that day. How many thousands of military personnel have the US lost (and been permanently maimed) since 911 in Iraq and Afghanistan, all in the name of fighting the terrorists? And nine years later we feel how much safer? Maybe this is what K10guy meant. |
Not just US personnel Olyuzi,....21 other countries lost military personnel as part of the coalition forces and also dont forget Afghan civilians killed(8,800) and Iraqi civilians(860,000) killed since the start of the conflicts also.. |
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10/05/2010 09:46:14 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Look at the US. This country. after 9/11 there was a lot of patriotism, lots of hoohah and brovado, but how many of us were really ready to go to war. I mean enlisting, not just "supporting the war". Sure we talked a big game, but those who enlisted were either career military men and women, those who didn't have many other options in life or young men and women looking for a purpose.
Those of us with good jobs and families couldn't be bothered. Why? Because we have more meaningful things to do than to fight and kill each other. |
That's bullshit. I have a family, and a good job...the only reason I didn't enlist and head downrange after 9/11 is that I have a non-waiverable physical condition that I didn't discover until the Med screening at MEPS. I would have been just ahead of the age limit that was in place at the time. I know plenty of others who stepped up and enlisted, re-enlisted or who were in the reserves who requested activation... Professionals...Lawyers, engineers, doctors etc. People with lives and good jobs. |
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10/05/2010 09:28:46 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
A random sampling of those people would turn up how many who know what happened August 5, 1945? |
Well, I don't suppose many people would know what happened on August 5, 1945, but most will know about the following day.
One of the reasons for dropping the bombs, rightly or wrongly, was the realisation that - after the hard slog that was the Battle of Okinawa - a land war throughout the main islands of Japan would have taken a very long time with perhaps many more deaths than the bombings produced.
Message edited by author 2010-10-06 00:25:39. |
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10/05/2010 08:56:32 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by alohadave:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
All warfare boils down to an ideological difference |
That is not true. Most wars are driven by resource inequities. |
Yes, but what determines if somebody is an ingrouper and privy to said resources? |
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10/05/2010 11:21:36 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
I think that apart from so many people dying, it was actually the enormous fact that all those people died within a 2.5 hour period. There is no other country in the world that has lost that many people in 2.5 hours. |
Don't ever forget... Japan in 1945, China in 1976, Iran in 2003, Indonesia in 2004, Haiti in January of this year... |
Or Pearl Harbor, or the Armenians, or so many others. (Bosnia, Serbia, Sparta, the Mayans... the list is so terribly long.)
Those who do not remember the past are condemned repeat it. - George Santayana
The other thing that would be worth remembering, is that what we oppose are the ideas and actions of leaders. People are just that, people. They live much as we, trying to better their life as best they can; and hoping for a better life for their children. They laugh, they cry, they rejoice, they mourn, they bleed suffer and die just as we.
ETA: Perhaps Japan should remember Pearl Harbor and Bataan, and we Americans Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Perhaps if we all remembered what we have done to others, instead of what justifies our revenge, the long term result might be better. |
I guess it's easier to never forget the actions of others against us than it is to commemorate what we have done to others. The USA is the only country to have dropped 2 atomic bombs. If you haven't seen it, I recommend HBO's documentary White Light Black Rain for a perspective of what it's like to live through an atomic bomb destroying the place where you live (instantly but temporarily--they rebuilt & went on living). I read somewhere that 70% of Japan's population was born after August 6, 1945. A random sampling of those people would turn up how many who know what happened August 5, 1945?
Message edited by author 2010-10-05 11:23:45. |
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10/05/2010 09:18:22 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by alohadave:
[quote=spiritualspatula]
Ideology plays a part, but it is not the only reason for war. |
Ideology is often used as the excuse or recruiting tool for war. |
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10/05/2010 08:53:51 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
All warfare boils down to an ideological difference |
That is not true. Most wars are driven by resource inequities. One country or state wants something that a neighbor has that they don't have themselves. Most of the fighting in the middle east is over land that has drinkable water access.
Ideology plays a part, but it is not the only reason for war.
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10/05/2010 07:48:30 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by MAK:
Let's be honest
Killing each other in any way shape or form is just plain fucking stupid! |
unfortunately some people on this planet have nothing better to do with their time.
We need to help these countries to grow and become one with the rest of the nationalized world.
they need truly functional towns, cites and education, and society. Give them something else to do besides fight and give them a reason to not want to fight.
Look at the US. This country. after 9/11 there was a lot of patriotism, lots of hoohah and brovado, but how many of us were really ready to go to war. I mean enlisting, not just "supporting the war". Sure we talked a big game, but those who enlisted were either career military men and women, those who didn't have many other options in life or young men and women looking for a purpose.
Those of us with good jobs and families couldn't be bothered. Why? Because we have more meaningful things to do than to fight and kill each other.
Message edited by author 2010-10-05 08:12:09. |
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10/05/2010 07:22:39 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by MAK:
Let's be honest
Killing each other in any way shape or form is just plain fucking stupid! |
Yup |
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10/05/2010 06:08:04 AM · #11 |
Let's be honest
Killing each other in any way shape or form is just plain fucking stupid! |
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10/05/2010 04:22:10 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Originally posted by ambaker:
ETA: Perhaps Japan should remember Pearl Harbor and Bataan, and we Americans Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Perhaps if we all remembered what we have done to others, instead of what justifies our revenge, the long term result might be better. |
Now there is the most sensible statement in this thread. |
I agree, if people/leaders etc took the time to remember how shitty they have been to others and just stopped it!! ..... and with all the figures floating around in this thread the bomb dropped on hiroshima killed around 70,000 people instantly ... men, women, children, civilians, soldiers
I am not Japanese and have no connections, but Japan remembers which is why they have never developed Nuclear weapons. There is a museum in Hiroshima I want to visit, it places no blame on anyone, just states how shit it all was and how it must never happen again.
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10/05/2010 02:51:00 AM · #13 |
It's not terribly difficult to see how US foreign policy created animosity among a great many people in the Middle East, nor how the US is responsible to a large extent for the power vacuum that allowed the Taliban to assume control in Afghanistan. Once the Mujaheddin had driven the Soviets out of Afghanistan the promises of warm Afghan/US relations and help rebuilding the country, whose people fought the Soviets as our proxy, went out the window.
By no means does that justify the actions of the Taliban and/or Al Qaeda, but the real story is never as simple as one side's propaganda makes it seem. |
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10/05/2010 02:06:24 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan
I think [img:
//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif[/img] oldbimmercoupe makes some good points and i tend to agree with him. It's amazing the attitude of 'What ever did we do??' or 'They must hate our freedom!' or other such nonsense that pops up from idiots who refuse, or are to stupid, to see that acts of terrorism against America are a result of American foreign policy and behaviour. |
I think, fundamentally, that it's important to consider these things. Much of our actions are simply in response to other events. When considering an event such as 9/11, it's foolish to not look at the causes for such sentiment. All warfare boils down to an ideological difference, and it doesn't matter whether that difference is supported by rational thought or not, it should be assessed. Read Mein Kampf and you'll find that WWII was completely reactionary on Hitler's behalf. Were his beliefs forged by reason? No. But I do think it's crucial to look at such reasoning before dismissing it outright. |
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10/04/2010 08:01:03 PM · #15 |
Okay happy picture time.
A fav of mine from a '98 trip to visit a friend working on Broadway.
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10/04/2010 06:37:11 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
[DELETED] Enough said. |
I think  oldbimmercoupe makes some good points and i tend to agree with him. It's amazing the attitude of 'What ever did we do??' or 'They must hate our freedom!' or other such nonsense that pops up from idiots who refuse, or are to stupid, to see that acts of terrorism against America are a result of American foreign policy and behaviour.
Message edited by Manic - no personal attacks will be tolerated. |
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10/04/2010 06:24:36 PM · #17 |
[DELETED] Enough said.
Message edited by Manic - no personal attacks will be tolerated. |
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10/04/2010 04:50:50 PM · #18 |
| well said, Simms. I think there is little danger of forgetting 9-11 right now, and more danger of forgetting WWI and WWII. |
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10/04/2010 03:53:56 PM · #19 |
Look, one thing that really bothered me on that day and the weeks that followed (apart from the obvious) was North Americas "WAR ON TERROR" - terrorism had finally hit New York. The horrible horrible irony was New York was one of the places where NORAID made most of their money - and where did the majority of that cash end up - in the hands of the IRA - a terrorist organisation that killed many many British Men, Women and Children over the previous decades. Why did the United States allow this to go on for so long? - and why did it take a huge dirty sucker punch to make New Yorkers wake up and realise where their NORAID donations ended up and what they were used for.
EDIT - to clarify, I am not washing my hands of the British led atrocities that have happened to the Irish over the past centuary, god knows we are as guilty as charged there, my point is the money New Yorkers gave to support terrorism against an allied country. Maybe they were naive, maybe it was a case of `out of sight, out of mind` but when Terrorism finally showed up in their backyard - they kinda realised terrorism was real and not something that was just a footnote on the evening news.
Message edited by author 2010-10-04 15:59:00. |
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10/04/2010 01:44:18 PM · #20 |
oh really? all 300M of us? NO. blowback from our foreign policy finally came home to roost. millions of us protested the use of 9/11 by the neoCONS as cover for the expansion of the usa empire. now we are broke trying to fight two wars -both a total waste. did you ever get a chance to vote for empire. no. perhaps you could explain to all of us why we never even left germany and japan, let alone invading countries with oil we need. hubris? of course - and also empire. 776 military bases in 131 countries plus all the puppet dictators we prop up (like saddam) leads to blowback. read chalmers johnson, retired admiral - his trilogy should be required reading of all usa citizens as should howard zinn's "peoples history of the united states"
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I think your country would be better off forgetting. Let go of the past, and all that. Some of the things that are going on because of the ridiculous refusal to let go are more insane than the attacks themselves. |
K10DGuy, why not keep your tongue in your mouth just for today. Please. Your comment could be construed as anti American and has no damn place here so please, do something else today instead of pissing off 330 million people. |
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09/11/2010 11:14:04 PM · #21 |
And some thoughts that have run through my head today over this thread.
I was once wisely told.
"If you hate logging - don't hate the logger - love the tree"
Additionally -and I preface this by explaining that I am not a religious person, but this Christian prayer to St Francis came to mind ...
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me show love;
where there is injury, pardon:
where there is doubt, faith ;
where there is despair, hope
where there is darkness, light
where there is sadness, joy
O divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.
And finally in the spirit of an American doing so much good to right the balance between the US and Muslim countries
Greg Mortenson ... I URGE you all to read the books Three Cups of Tea and Stones into Schools.
His insight into the needs of how each of us can create goodness in a time of adversaries is highly regarded by leaders within the USA Military.
Message edited by author 2010-09-11 23:15:19. |
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09/11/2010 10:52:39 PM · #22 |
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09/11/2010 10:03:30 PM · #23 |
never forget that our foreign policy since WW2 creates many enemies. this horrific act was blowback to a nation with 776 military bases in 131 countries. we are empire and yet as citizens we never voted for same.
we will never forget what we are told to remember. and very few will remember our criminal invasions and occupations trumped up by the warmongering neocons. we will no doubt eventually forget the torture policies that continue to this day. we will also never remember, because we never learn accurate usa history. we are 24/7 propaganda-fattened fools. an australian saw our vulnerability and successfully built the #1 news machine in usa - dont ever forget rupert murdock and his hachetman roger ailes creating our version of pravda.
dont ever forget that empires rot from within - we are no exception.
oh, and do remember to keep shopping. |
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09/11/2010 09:01:46 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
I think that apart from so many people dying, it was actually the enormous fact that all those people died within a 2.5 hour period. There is no other country in the world that has lost that many people in 2.5 hours. |
Don't ever forget... Japan in 1945, China in 1976, Iran in 2003, Indonesia in 2004, Haiti in January of this year... |
Do casualties of war and casualties of natural disasters belong in the same category as cold blooded murder? |
To those left behind to grieve, they most certainly do. Having lost a fair number of loved ones to wars, accidents and other means, it matters not to me how they died...their death alone causes me grief.
Ray |
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09/11/2010 08:56:44 PM · #25 |
If you forget your past you are deemed to repeat it.....My heart goes out to all the victims, survivors, and families. You will not be forgotten!!!!
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