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07/04/2010 09:16:37 AM · #1 |
Originally posted by tnun:
Why this should not be a worthy exercise is beyond me. If you like, think of it as drawing with the other hand. |
I only just read this message, that sums up my point in one! Drawing with the other hand...love it. Something to challenge us further. |
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07/01/2010 07:31:53 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by Kobba:
Our basic editing rule set is pretty much anything you can do with film. Actually there is a lot of other things you can do with film that are not allowed in the basic editing rules. IMHO a strait from the camera challenge is not realistic. All the great photographers of the film days did lots of editing before the final print was produced. Like it or not part of photography is post processes. I think of the basic editing rules and being true to the old film days and advanced editing as the new digital age of photography. |
Whilst I am not in the camp of those enamored with the idea of a minimal editing challenge (I think to myself "What's the POINT? Really, what does that PROVE?"), I still feel compelled to point out the the proper film-photography analogue for minimal editing would be the once wildly popular color slide format... So there is some validity to this.
Not all photography, or even most of it, was done by darkroom wizards; just most of what we think of as art...
R.
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07/01/2010 07:16:23 PM · #3 |
1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1
0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0
0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1
1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 0
0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 0
1 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 1
0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0
Pretty no? |
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07/01/2010 04:47:26 PM · #4 |
Our basic editing rule set is pretty much anything you can do with film. Actually there is a lot of other things you can do with film that are not allowed in the basic editing rules. IMHO a strait from the camera challenge is not realistic. All the great photographers of the film days did lots of editing before the final print was produced. Like it or not part of photography is post processes. I think of the basic editing rules and being true to the old film days and advanced editing as the new digital age of photography.
You also don't need to be a photoshop wizard to do well on this site. My one ribbon winning photo had very minimal editing done to it (rotate and convert to B&W, which if I was shooting in film I would have chosen B&W film for the photograph). Currently my free study entry would fall under basic rules and is doing well at 6.4.
I also take photographs with the knowledge that I can fix it in photoshop. There are just times you can't get the shot the want because you don't have the right lens or there is something in the way that will take away from the photo. So should I just not take the photo, take it and live with what ever it is that I can't do anything about, take it knowing I can fix it in photoshop?
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07/01/2010 04:17:11 PM · #5 |
I didn't think I would get such a response to a suggested challenge. I am finding it very interesting hearing everyone's point of view, however I want to remind myself that I thought it would be an interesting challenge. With my limited expertise I could never say one is better than another.
I like what  bergiekat said, it is just an idea to excercise a different part of our skills. After all that is what a challenge should be.
I must first learn to find good pictures, then how to enhance them using camera or computer. |
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07/01/2010 01:19:29 PM · #6 |
My highest placed photograph was with a "Minimal Editing" contest, I got 4th place :)
I am hoping for another one soon :) |
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07/01/2010 12:50:22 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
And, as I learned the painful way, no amount of pp will improve a poor image. In fact it usually does just the opposite, and highlight its flaws! Most of my early stuff from 3-4 years ago will prove this. See my portfolio for proof!
IMHO the pp should only be used to enhance an already good image, and you certainly don't need to be a PS wizard to do well here.
Hope this helps, in the meantime just keep shooting. Concentrate on getting a really good image, and to paraphrase what someone else has already said, don't think about how you can fix stuff in pp. |
Boom boom boom. Right On:-) |
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07/01/2010 12:02:21 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by bergiekat:
I still like the idea of an unedited challenge as every other challenge we have here allows for some editing, regardless of how minimal, to be done to the shot and doesn't cause the photographer to rely even more on their photography skills. This would just be another type of exercise in skill, just not many are currently used to working with.
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I totally agree.
And to be honest, I wasn't really meaning to call you, the OP, or anybody in this thread, out specifically. I expressed the sentiment because many of the arguments surrounding a return to zero editing are produced by those who have no knowledge of the process (for whatever reason).
Also, your last point is exactly what I'm trying to get at... he two are so intermingled that you can't separate them. It's all about vision, combined with the application of tools. How do you know how to capture an image to reduce editing? By know what your end result is. How do you go about that? By properly applying your camera as a tool, to produce a given end. You don't have to go bonkers with editing, but understand that they inevitably meet.
And I really do understand how overwhelming all the stuff for photoshop can be and how aimless any experimentation can seem. I've been learning in a haphazard fashion for awhile now, learning only what I felt I needed to know to accomplish something as I went. I've submitted super lightly edited shots, and super heavily edited shots, but all of that knowledge was accrued because I had a specific direction I wanted to learn. Heck, screwing around doing  that let me learn a whole lot with zero pressure.
Honestly, I think it's detrimental for people to separate themselves from it in such a manner, and act as though it is so esoteric and impossible. It doesn't necessarily come easy, and it may be easier for some, but I think anybody has the potential to improve and grow. That's why I wanted to help out in the first place. And it isn't as though I'm some fantastic amazing photog, I expect to learn a lot myself from the questions and issues that will inevitably come up. |
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07/01/2010 11:52:57 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Jac:
bla bla bla won't happen.
I've been waiting for one since March 2008. :( |
Oh, Happy Canada Day to you too! |
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07/01/2010 11:51:58 AM · #10 |
| Why this should not be a worthy exercise is beyond me. If you like, think of it as drawing with the other hand. |
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07/01/2010 11:47:13 AM · #11 |
bla bla bla won't happen.
I've been waiting for one since March 2008. :( |
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07/01/2010 11:27:29 AM · #12 |
I still like the idea of an unedited challenge as every other challenge we have here allows for some editing, regardless of how minimal, to be done to the shot and doesn't cause the photographer to rely even more on their photography skills. This would just be another type of exercise in skill, just not many are currently used to working with.
For the record. :)
Some of us ARE trying to learn (and ARE in the sub-club), but doing it on your own with EXCEPTIONALLY few willing to ever comment on a shot (I've been trying for almost two years to find someone willing to mentor me in Photoshop), doesn't help those of us on sensory overload trying to figure it all out alone. I was not trying to implying that knowing how to post process was something that those of us not currently excelling at(but trying to learn), was the entire issue. Personally, I'd like to hone my photography skills first, then my post processing or at least at the same time, rather than the emphasis always being on the post processing first (or so it seems). (IMHO, if I photograph well, there is less of a need for post processing.)
I vote yes! :P
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07/01/2010 11:16:33 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
as a newcomer to the site and someone who has yet to submit an entry, i feel i can line up and take a good shot, but my photoshop skills are far inferior to almost anyone here. its kind of intimidating knowing my submissions wont stack up for that reason.
photoshop takes good images and makes them stunning, when i got into this hobby i was a little disappointed to find that post processing seems to be the most important tool in creating an good image.
In the spirit of the OPs challenge, I be curious to see a contest where we are all given the same image and have a contest to post process it.
by the way the "straight from the camera" pictures are amazing, that's what i strive to accomplish. |
Check out  RayEthier. His work is sftc. My bf, Magnumphotography, also does very little pp (he doesn't even own Photoshop, just does any in iPhoto).
And, as I learned the painful way, no amount of pp will improve a poor image. In fact it usually does just the opposite, and highlight its flaws! Most of my early stuff from 3-4 years ago will prove this. See my portfolio for proof!
IMHO the pp should only be used to enhance an already good image, and you certainly don't need to be a PS wizard to do well here.
Hope this helps, in the meantime just keep shooting. Concentrate on getting a really good image, and to paraphrase what someone else has already said, don't think about how you can fix stuff in pp. |
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07/01/2010 11:10:21 AM · #14 |
While I really do feel for those who are feeling left out of the whole processing thing, I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment. As I said earlier, this has ALWAYS been the case (processing makes good photos stunning). Many famous photographers achieved their "look" through careful development. The thing is, back then, you needed to invest in lots of film, chemicals, and a darkroom. Honestly, I wish I could have done all that when I was younger, but I didn't have the resources at my disposal. Now you can download GIMP and get cooking. So while I understand being intimidated (I know I was... I lurked here for a long time before even posting to the forum), decrying other's dedication to advancing their vision while refusing to do so yourself seems ridiculous to me.
The tools are there for people, and we have a great community that is willing to show you how to use those tools. Hell, that's EXACTLY what Yo_Spiff's Sub-Club is ALL about.
This isn't to say I don't think minimal challenges are interesting and a good idea, because I do think they're good.
But it strikes me as a bit odd to insist that we eliminate from the playing board the knowledge, dedication, and effort needed to hone one's skills in order for those who refuse to do the same to be on the same level. Shall we say that all individuals with expensive lenses, which they worked long and hard to afford, should not be allowed to use them because not all individuals are willing to take the sacrifice to afford them themselves? That's absurd. It's also missing the point- post processing isn't just about randomly moving sliders in PS or inherent PS skill. It's about having the ability to manifest a scene from one's mind. The most proficient PS user in the world would repeatedly make shitty images if they didn't have a vision for what they were creating. Develop your vision, hone your tools. The best sculpter in the world is useless if all they do is carve doorknobs. Think about it.
/rant. |
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07/01/2010 10:47:05 AM · #15 |
| I like this idea as it levels the playing field for those of us that are "Post processing" challenged, lol. |
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07/01/2010 08:27:04 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
I be curious to see a contest where we are all given the same image and have a contest to post process it. |
You'd be interested in the PP side challenge that was ongoing for a while. |
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07/01/2010 08:20:43 AM · #17 |
as a newcomer to the site and someone who has yet to submit an entry, i feel i can line up and take a good shot, but my photoshop skills are far inferior to almost anyone here. its kind of intimidating knowing my submissions wont stack up for that reason.
photoshop takes good images and makes them stunning, when i got into this hobby i was a little disappointed to find that post processing seems to be the most important tool in creating an good image.
In the spirit of the OPs challenge, I be curious to see a contest where we are all given the same image and have a contest to post process it.
by the way the "straight from the camera" pictures are amazing, that's what i strive to accomplish.
Message edited by author 2010-07-01 08:24:10. |
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07/01/2010 07:09:38 AM · #18 |
I don’t really see what the big fuss is about photoshop /digital post processing. The most common argument against it is that altered images don’t look “realistic”. We use hardware all the time to alter our images. Does a long-exposure seascape (after graduated filters) look like that in real-life? Or what about a bug macro with an extremely shallow depth of focus or better yet what about an image where a simple flash or a fish-eye lens was utilized? My point is, most “straight from the camera” photographs are not accurate representations of what we see in real life. Does it really matter whether we utilized hardware or software to alter our photos in order to obtain the vision we had in mind?
Message edited by author 2010-07-01 07:11:17. |
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07/01/2010 06:07:05 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
To carry the analogy, does this mean that real photography only consists of undeveloped film? Don't fall to the illusion that the masters of photography weren't doing their own tricks in the darkroom. That's a serious misunderstanding. |
even if i do not make PP really advanced (i like the shots good out of camera as more as possible) i totally agree with Derek...
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07/01/2010 06:05:57 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by bubbles13:
Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:
I am always all up for PP. Infact, photography cannot exist without some form of PP ... |
By saying that do you then think that all the images in the Straight from camera challenge are not photograhpy??? |
 ashishkushwaha is correct. Straight from the camera involves processing as well. The difference is that it is about 'who' is doing the processing. A straight from the camera challenge makes the camera and its many programs and modes and options for saturation, sharpness etc do the processing for you. Allowing the photographer to do the processing allows the photographer to have control of the processing and not leaving it up to some box in your hand.
Personally, I think it is better for the photographer to have control and to allow them to see the vision they had in their heads before the camera shutter was fired. |
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07/01/2010 05:48:34 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by bubbles13:
Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:
According to me, post processing is more challenging than taking the actual shot. With the shot you just can press the shutter if you have already decided on what to shoot. If you give the idea to someone else and tell them how to press the shutter, they will take the same shot for you. |
If you give 2 cameras to 2 people and tell them to take a picture of a scene-you will get two very different results depending on how the person looks at it. Before joining DP I hated photoshop and didn't think of it as real photography...however after looking at so many images I can see it's potential, and I will learn how to "enhance" my photos...eventually. My eyes are now open, however you still need to capture a good image.
Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:
I am always all up for PP. Infact, photography cannot exist without some form of PP ... |
By saying that do you then think that all the images in the Straight from camera challenge are not photograhpy??? I am quite impressed by the high standard in this challenge considering how dependant some people can be on using photoshop or some similar program. I do think there is a place for both. |
To carry the analogy, does this mean that real photography only consists of undeveloped film? Don't fall to the illusion that the masters of photography weren't doing their own tricks in the darkroom. That's a serious misunderstanding. |
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07/01/2010 05:15:09 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:
According to me, post processing is more challenging than taking the actual shot. With the shot you just can press the shutter if you have already decided on what to shoot. If you give the idea to someone else and tell them how to press the shutter, they will take the same shot for you. |
If you give 2 cameras to 2 people and tell them to take a picture of a scene-you will get two very different results depending on how the person looks at it. Before joining DP I hated photoshop and didn't think of it as real photography...however after looking at so many images I can see it's potential, and I will learn how to "enhance" my photos...eventually. My eyes are now open, however you still need to capture a good image.
Originally posted by ashishkushwaha:
I am always all up for PP. Infact, photography cannot exist without some form of PP ... |
By saying that do you then think that all the images in the Straight from camera challenge are not photograhpy??? I am quite impressed by the high standard in this challenge considering how dependant some people can be on using photoshop or some similar program. I do think there is a place for both. |
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06/30/2010 04:17:08 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
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A great photo under the Minimal Editing ruleset, but I think it would be misleading to say it's completely unedited. It has definitely been sharpened, and Minimal Editing allows for in-camera adjustments that result in output different from what the sensor actually recorded. |
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06/30/2010 04:09:46 PM · #24 |
\Begin Disclaimer: These are purely my views. I do not want to start a debate, or change your views if you believe otherwise:-)
In some sense, I consider myself a purist. To me (and yes you can disagree, and no I am not asking you to change what you think it is, and yes I am learning post processing, but keeping in mind there is a reason it is called 'post' processing :-),
[1] Digital Photography involves:
-- Capturing the RAW image using the digital camera's sensor onto an electronic data storage medium (analogous to capturing light from a scene on a photographic film)
-- Converting the RAW image into a common viewable image format (analogous to developing the film and transferring the latent image it carries to a 'final image' on a photo paper in the dark room).
[2] The first capture of interaction of light with matter (scene/subjects) is most important. Any further processing on the digital or analog capture will only enhance (or deteriorate) the 'final image' and convert it into a 'post processed image' (analogous to print processing, techniques like dodge, burn, etc.).
A helpful reference.
Another helpful reference.
/End Disclaimer |
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06/30/2010 04:01:05 PM · #25 |
while i do agree post processing is an integral part of photography with both digital AND film, I did enjoy this line from the "One Light" flash photography instructional dvd's I just watched:
"If you ever catch yourself saying 'ahh, I'll just fix it in Photoshop' slap yourself accross the face as hard as you can" |
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