So why so many confused? - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

06/17/2004 11:55:06 AM · #1

I'm glad Jon tabled this issue, and I support his premise.

The narrow focus on topicality is effecting a plethora of entries, not just his own. I think it a shame when good photos are consistently superceded by mediocre ones, when there is less and less talk about the picture itself and more and more about a voter's unqualified opinion external to the picture.

I'm really not interested in the topical preferences of people who show very little interest in the very photograph they're judging. This lack of interest is frequently extends to topicality as well. Such comments often voice a singular unsubstantiated opinion, nothing more.

This, to me, represents a very undesirable insult to photography. The photographer, no matter how finely tuned his work and how 'topical', in the end, has no recourse but to accept the arrogance of voters who choose to verbalize their desinterest in either matter.

I commend Jon for standing up when it would be easier and more convenient to shrug one's shoulders.

Imagineer

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/17/2004 10:32:07 AM · #2

Originally posted by wwwavenger:

Imagineer has replied to me directly regarding a challenge (Planes,T,A) comment defending his photo.

- so much for Private Messaging! 'Defence' is strong, 'educating' is better. Sounds like you're irritated by my mentioning a technique used?

Originally posted by wwwavenger:

This thread needs to end.

- just because a thread runs long does not mean that it is less valid. You can always stop reading it or mark it with the 'Ignore' option. I'm not soley responsible for letting it run on - but thanks fo your input anyway and adding to it...

PS. it may just be that you need to chill ore than me! Just by raising a point of interest does not mean anyone's blowing their lid. :)

Message edited by author 2004-06-17 10:51:19.

digistoune

Canon EOS-20D

06/17/2004 10:21:12 AM · #3

I see what you're saying, Bill, and my use of Eddy's quote was a mistake on my part (see earlier post). I'm afraid that in my irritation, I managed to deflect my point...

I think it's wonderful that we can talk about our photos and get feedback on them. And I think that if a submission scores low, the photographer should be welcomed to pursue more information, e.g. "My photo didn't do as well as I'd hoped. How can I improve it? How can I make it better?"

As opposed to what is tanamount to, "How can you not see my artisitc genius, you ignorant fools!"

It's the whining and the inability to accept another's opinion with grace that I was whining about. ;-)

wwwavenger

06/17/2004 10:17:25 AM · #4

Imagineer has replied to me directly regarding a challenge (Planes,T,A) comment defending his photo.

Imagineer:
You really need to chill out. Just because your photo doesn't crush us all in a photo competition doesn't mean isn't good. Don't take criticism personally. It's always good to take it with a grain of salt realizing youraudience doesn't always think like you. If all photography had wide appeal it wouldn't be art.

This thread needs to end.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

06/17/2004 10:12:55 AM · #5

Sorry, I've been lax (vacation + relatives in town for the past few weeks). My goal is to keep my comments given above comments received, and I'm about 50 behind. I commented on over 40% of the Threes entries, and I tend to leave long comments, so it took days.

soccerdad

Fujifilm FinePix S2 Pro

06/17/2004 10:08:43 AM · #6

Originally posted by scalvert:

Gee, thanks Bill. I'm blushing. :-)

Well, stop that, and comment on some of my photos! ;)

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

06/17/2004 10:07:59 AM · #7

Gee, thanks Bill. I'm blushing. :-)

soccerdad

Fujifilm FinePix S2 Pro

06/17/2004 10:06:01 AM · #8

Originally posted by digistoune:

Originally posted by EddyG:
Which must not be very often, considering your "Average Vote Given"...

What is that?!? Why are you even looking at something like "an average vote given"? How could that possibly matter to you or anyone else?
...

digistoune:

The average vote given and the comments they leave are excellent ways to evaluate what people are saying in threads and help you evaluate their opinions.

Think about someone who votes exceptionally low, and leaves less than helpful comments. Then think about how you evaluate what they say in the threads.

Contrast that with someone like scalvert, or eddyg. Both are tough, but (in my opinion) fair voters. Then go read some of the comments they leave on people's photos, and you will see that they are to the point, and exceptionally helpful. I don't always agree with what they say, but, I do try to read it and think about it.

To not have any basis to judge what people say in threads, or the comments they leave on your photos, would reduce the value of this site. The average vote given is just one of the things we have to help us think about what people are saying.

Best,

digistoune

Canon EOS-20D

06/17/2004 09:49:36 AM · #9

I'm sorry, Eddy!!! I didn't mean to infer that at all. Will watch my 'quoting' in the future

EddyG

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

06/17/2004 09:43:56 AM · #10

Why did you quote my post and respond like I'm complaining about my score? Do you see any place in this thread where I complained about how my photo was ranked by the voters? I didn't even have an entry in this challenge.

In terms of getting people to not whine about their score... good luck!

If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I was simply making a tongue-in-cheek comment about zeuszen's average vote cast. He was talking about how he personally votes on pictures, and said "Instead I look at it for photographic merit. If I find any..." to which I replied "Which must not be very often, considering your "Average Vote Given"... =]" Notice the smiley at the end of my comment.

That being said, a person's "Average Vote Cost" is publicly visible on their profile for all to see. There is nothing "secret" about it. A lot of folks look at a person's "Average Vote Cast" and "Average Vote Received", especially when reviewing comments from an unfamiliar username.

Message edited by author 2004-06-17 09:51:56.

digistoune

Canon EOS-20D

06/17/2004 09:18:23 AM · #11

Originally posted by EddyG:

Which must not be very often, considering your "Average Vote Given"...

What is that?!? Why are you even looking at something like "an average vote given"? How could that possibly matter to you or anyone else?

Forgive me for being direct but it should be a rule that no one on this site be allowed to berate, criticize, or otherwise whine because a photo they submitted didn�t score as highly as the submitting photographer would have liked.

Yeah, as artists we are attached to work we create and sometimes we are hurt that our hard work, vision, etc. isn�t well received. That�s a risk you have to take when you share your work with others. If you don�t have the balls to accept that then you might as well hang it up.

Show some humility and move on for goodness sake!

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

06/17/2004 09:02:36 AM · #12

Originally posted by EddyG:

Which must not be very often, considering your "Average Vote Given"... =]

LOL! Must be some pretty high standards for photographic merit! ;-)

EddyG

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

06/17/2004 08:44:01 AM · #13

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Instead I look at it for photographic merit. If I find any...

Which must not be very often, considering your "Average Vote Given"... =]

coolhar

Canon PowerShot Pro 90 IS

06/17/2004 08:39:46 AM · #14

Just noticed that, lol. Is it possible to be honest and arrogant at the same time?

melismatica

Minolta DiMAGE F200

06/17/2004 01:36:17 AM · #15

It is better to be honestly arrogant than hypocritically humble

I vote for neither. How about honesty tempered with humility?

menardmam

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

06/17/2004 01:33:07 AM · #16

By explaining my voting rules i just put my guts ont he table... i dont see many other do that.... i assume that people dont agree with me, but everybodu have different opinion of what is art and what is not... i dont like Picasso, but i dont say it a sucker... i dont like it... final point... but i can appreciate Riopelle.

Art come from so many twisted mind.... for sure it wont touch everybody....

I am only 30 years old, like wine, i will get better, in my taste, opinion and hope, photo...

CIOA

ellamay

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

06/16/2004 09:41:36 PM · #17

nstead I look at it for photographic merit. If I find any, I vote according to those merits I can recognize, accommodating some degree of ignorance on my part. I do not include criticism regarding topicality, nor do I evaluate it. I'm trying to be a photographer, not a hanging judge.

well said!

Canon EF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 II

06/16/2004 09:31:29 PM · #18

Originally posted by debitipton:

Another perspective -- I looked at your shot for a long time before I decided how to vote. The bird is leaning quite a distance and it's wings are beginning to spread like it's about to take off. To me it looked like it was leaving -- not waiting. A beautiful shot. But not having been there to see the bird go after it's pray I was easily mislead as to what the bird was doing.

Fair enough, Debbie. I can relate to your perspective quite well. I do not, however, judge a photo solely on whether it meets the challenge or not. As a matter of fact, I don't judge an entry at all.

Instead I look at it for photographic merit. If I find any, I vote according to those merits I can recognize, accommodating some degree of ignorance on my part. I do not include criticism regarding topicality, nor do I evaluate it. I'm trying to be a photographer, not a hanging judge.

debitipton

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/16/2004 09:10:52 PM · #19

My shot was of a fishing heron (the ultimate fisherman). I deliberately turned down many opps that could have easily served a fishing/waiting equation. Instead I decided to follow several of these birds not only for hours but over several days in order to capture a distinct poise just prior to a catch. I was lucky and did get one shot (eventually and as part of a burst) at the precise moment the bird realized the purpose of his waiting in the form of a fish.

Needless to say, I was more than satisfied that I had a worthy shot that would fit the challenge. Yet I received comments like not so much waiting as it looks like it's launching or taking off and what does this picture have to do with waiting?. [/quote]
____________________________________
Another perspective -- I looked at your shot for a long time before I decided how to vote. The bird is leaning quite a distance and it's wings are beginning to spread like it's about to take off. To me it looked like it was leaving -- not waiting. A beautiful shot. But not having been there to see the bird go after it's pray I was easily mislead as to what the bird was doing.

06/16/2004 08:58:55 PM · #20

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

...My shot was of a wading bird, as were three other submissions, probably because those of us who try to shoot the bloody things know how long they stand stock still while staring into the water for a fish to shimmy by. They did less well than the above mentioned images because fewer people know how long these birds wait for their prey. To those who don't know the behavior of these birds it does not clearly convey waiting.

06/16/2004 07:53:38 PM · #21

Originally posted by melismatica:

..."Hanging" is a suitable title for the image and at the same time it does convey a certain sense of waiting (hanging around, hanging at the edge of supsense, etc.).

I would go even further and say, the title was a critical component of Jon's presentation, which was likely lost on those predominantly or exclusively interested in topicality.

BrennanOB