The Commercialization of Christmas

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

12/31/2008 04:41:46 PM · #26

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Christ wasn't born in December.

Since the Romans celebrated Saturnalia.

You really should read why the holidays are when they are.

That's a pretty bold statement to make.

Do you even know that Saturnalia is? It was offically celebrated on December 17 in which Augustus limited to 3 days. We're also talking about 200BC. I don't think Romans will mind since there's nobody who celebrates Saturnalia. Most Romans now a days are Catholic (being the center of the Catholic Church).

Nothing bold about Spaz's simple statement. What was bold, as an understatement, was the way the Roman Catholic Church undertook the christianization of Europe. The deliberate transference of Christian dates to the Pagan holidays is only a small part of this story. It was, undoubtedly, a coldly calculated assault on the old native religion decreed in a papal bull. If you follow Spaz's final suggestion, read up on the bloody accomplishments of Charlemaigne in this respect as well -not what you would call a christian methodology, to use the term in the way we are so accustomed to hearing it.

And, yes, many people still celebrate the old holiday by one name or another. They (the holidays) exist and will likely continue to exist as markers of seasons.

pixelpig

Sony Alpha a55

Sony DT 1.8/50mm SAM

12/31/2008 10:18:17 PM · #27

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Okay, at the suggestion of L2......(Howzat for taking something out of context!)

Here's my dilemma.....I truly and wholeheartedly believe in theis concept:

Peace on earth & goodwill towards man.

What I object to is having someone ram their particular bent of how and when this should happen down my throat, and putting their spin on how *I* am supposed to be and act according to THEIR beliefs.

I have a lot of trouble with the whole, "'Tis the sacred Christmas season." crap right before that drunken office party, the dysfunctional (unavoidable) family gatherings, and the whole concept of "Holiday Spirit" which is nothing more that the way we SHOULD treat each other 24/7/365.

I also don't believe the fat guy with the glued on beard in the mall is a holy man, and I do not have the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, so DON'T tell me how to be because you do!

Flame suit SECURELY fastened!............8>)

I'm gonna Rant right back atcha. If I could take all the bah-humbug people & ship them off on a Princess Cruise to Alaska during my favorite holiday, I would. Nobody would miss you. We would be grateful you were gone. I'm so sick of the self-righteous anti-Christmas rhetoric, I could puke. Who cares why Christmas is a holiday or why we celebrate it. Or try to. It's fun. It's good for us to at least try to do something fun altogether as a whole nation. If the anti-Christmas people had their way, we would all have to celebrate like them--separately, privately, randomly.

I'll tell you a story. Last year, I had this great idea to get a collection of small sample-sized perfumes together for my sister. For a Christmas present. I thought it'd be fun, to have a different one for every day of the week. My photographer's mind was intrigued by the idea of displaying all these little perfume bottles on a small mirror, by windowlight (it would also keep them from tipping over). It would look so jolly. When I asked my sister if she had a small mirror that would work to display the perfume bottles I planned to send her, she at first got agitated & then furious. She accused me of trying to control her. I was surprised. But not very, because she is, after all, an anti-Christmas person.

I had never thought of a gift in the light of an attempt to control someone. "Here, try this perfume. I think you might like it." An attempt to control someone? How? If you don't like the gift, give it away or throw it away.

I did not send my sister the perfume bottles, but I did go out & buy a few more perfumes & a little mirror to display them all on & now they're on my dresser by windowlight & I did take a bunch of still life photos. It was fun. I liked it. I went out & bought myself more perfume, some of it in bigger bottles. I liked it much more than my sister ever would have. Every morning when I open the perfume of the day & dab some on, I think of my sister & silently thank her for one of the best gifts I've ever given myself.

This year, I told all the bah-humbug people in my life that all they were getting from me was a hug. I told them that I was not expecting any gifts from anyone, no invitations from anyone. Nothing. I fully intended to celebrate my favorite holiday alone. Funny thing, this year I got the most fabulous presents of my life, including a new Sony DSLR-A350. Not only that, I got Christas Day off at work for the first time in 7 years. And I enjoyed (very much) Christmas Dinner with family members for the first time in 7 years. And I didn't have to cook anything! It was a big treat for me, though probably nothing special for them. Not only that, I also have New Years Day off for the first time in 7 years.

So, in a lopsided way I am now grateful to the bah-humbug people for a memorable Christmas, all of it pleasant & good to look back upon. At least for me. I'm going to leave the Santa Claus toilet-seat cover on for at least another week, also the reindeer rug, the snowflake shower curtain too. The poinsettia in the living room hasn't dropped a single leaf yet. It may last until Valentine's day.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

01/01/2009 12:17:48 PM · #28

Originally posted by zeuszen:

If you follow Spaz's final suggestion, read up on the bloody accomplishments of Charlemaigne in this respect as well -not what you would call a christian methodology, to use the term in the way we are so accustomed to hearing it.

I went back and checked. Spaz didn't mention anything about Charlemaigne's accomplishments. Charlemagne was a Roman Emperor (actually King of the Franks). He conquered most of Europe. I'm sure his accomplishments were bloody, conquests usually are. That was 1300 years ago. Are we still holding grudges?

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

01/01/2009 12:33:16 PM · #29

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by zeuszen:
If you follow Spaz's final suggestion, read up on the bloody accomplishments of Charlemaigne in this respect as well -not what you would call a christian methodology, to use the term in the way we are so accustomed to hearing it.

I went back and checked. Spaz didn't mention anything about Charlemaigne's accomplishments. Charlemagne was a Roman Emperor (actually King of the Franks). He conquered most of Europe. I'm sure his accomplishments were bloody, conquests usually are. That was 1300 years ago. Are we still holding grudges?

Do I really need to lay out the entire history of the Christian obliteration of pagan holidays with religious holidays? Are you seriously that incapable of intellectual discovery?

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

01/01/2009 12:41:29 PM · #30

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Do I really need to lay out the entire history of the Christian obliteration of pagan holidays with religious holidays? Are you seriously that incapable of intellectual discovery?

Nope. But such a bold statement is usually followed up with some reasoning or documentation.

Yes, I can see many arguments for/against your statement, but please explain to me your specific reasoning. Otherwise, you're just complaining about Christians being the reason for all our problems.

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

01/01/2009 01:36:49 PM · #31

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do I really need to lay out the entire history of the Christian obliteration of pagan holidays with religious holidays? Are you seriously that incapable of intellectual discovery?

Nope. But such a bold statement is usually followed up with some reasoning or documentation.

Yes, I can see many arguments for/against your statement, but please explain to me your specific reasoning. Otherwise, you're just complaining about Christians being the reason for all our problems.

Why should I do all the work for you?

And, it's not just Christians, other religious nutjobs do their part too.

The point is that once in power, the Christians took the pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and other celebrations and deliberately attempted to replace them with their religious holidays. So, while the religious context of Christmas may be the Christian celebration of the birth of the savior, it's no mistake that the holiday overlaps much older pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and that many of the most revered holiday traditions originate from those pagan celebrations.

Message edited by author 2009-01-01 13:48:52.

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/01/2009 02:14:24 PM · #32

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do I really need to lay out the entire history of the Christian obliteration of pagan holidays with religious holidays? Are you seriously that incapable of intellectual discovery?

Nope. But such a bold statement is usually followed up with some reasoning or documentation.

Yes, I can see many arguments for/against your statement, but please explain to me your specific reasoning. Otherwise, you're just complaining about Christians being the reason for all our problems.

Why should I do all the work for you?

And, it's not just Christians, other religious nutjobs do their part too.

The point is that once in power, the Christians took the pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and other celebrations and deliberately attempted to replace them with their religious holidays. So, while the religious context of Christmas may be the Christian celebration of the birth of the savior, it's no mistake that the holiday overlaps much older pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and that many of the most revered holiday traditions originate from those pagan celebrations.

I's called "co-opting", folks. The Romans co-opted the pagan holidays, because they couldn't obliterate them. And let's be clear on one other thing; just because the holiday in question was originally "pagan" doesn't mean it wasn't "religious". Because they most certainly were religious observances, these co-opted events. In any case, it's definitely true, for example, that our usage of the Christmas Tree is a carryover from Druidic origins; the Druids were tree-worshippers...

R.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

01/01/2009 03:36:57 PM · #33

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The point is that once in power, the Christians took the pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and other celebrations and deliberately attempted to replace them with their religious holidays. So, while the religious context of Christmas may be the Christian celebration of the birth of the savior, it's no mistake that the holiday overlaps much older pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and that many of the most revered holiday traditions originate from those pagan celebrations.

So while this is obviously true, I always scratch my head and ask, "so what?" Are you arguing the world would be better off if we had the original holidays? Would it be better off if the Christians had decided to use a different date? Heck, I doubt you could find a day that hasn't had some sort of previous celebration.

I always see it presented as some devious takeover too. Who is to say the Christians, who didn't want to feel left out, decided they couldn't participate in the pagan festivals and created one of their own? What's wrong with that? It's going on as we speak with Hanukkah. Slowly the holiday is looking more and more like Christmas and is taking on more importance in the Jewish calendar. Hanukkah has previously been far from "important" among Jewish holidays, but it has gained importance. How many people outside the Northeast ever hear about Yom Kippur? It's far more important than Hannukah.

Anyway, I just ask again, "who cares?" What is your point in this Spaz?

01/01/2009 03:48:45 PM · #34

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

...our usage of the Christmas Tree is a carryover from Druidic origins; the Druids were tree-worshippers...

Especially the Germanic peoples, the Norse. BTW, "pagan" -originally from "paganus" >"country folk" (probably in the sense of "people of nature") eventually perverted by the church to mean "non-believer" and "heretic".

Message edited by author 2009-01-01 15:52:54.

01/01/2009 03:54:55 PM · #35

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...I always see it presented as some devious takeover too....

Good, coz that's what it was.

01/01/2009 04:37:57 PM · #36

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Still, I love Christmas. I get together every year with the entire Friesen clan from my 92-year old Grandmother to my cousin's 1-year old daughter. 23 in all this year for a great dinner, conversation, swapping $15 gifts (a meaningful CD or book theme this year), and singing while my very musically talented cousins play guitar, piano, drums, or whatever. A definite highlight of my year.

We have this pagan ritual in the little town where my wife's mother grew up.

All the relatives scattered far and wide come back to this little town.....aunts and uncles, parents and children, in-laws and cousins.......big, BIG feast spread out onto long tables in the church where everybody brings something, food of every imaginable type......there are more secret family recipes in one place than you can imagine.

It's called homecoming, and for that day, everybody checks their differences at the door and they all remember that this is about family.

You will not find this pagan ritual on a printed calendar anywhere, and every one I attended was an absolutely delightful experience.

01/01/2009 04:44:48 PM · #37

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by Nullix:

Aren't we still killing each other over stupid religious reasons?

01/01/2009 04:50:54 PM · #38

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

the Druids were tree-worshippers...

So......John Muir, Johhny Appleseed, and Euell Gibbons were Druids????

01/01/2009 05:02:22 PM · #39

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

...our usage of the Christmas Tree is a carryover from Druidic origins; the Druids were tree-worshippers...

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Yeah, well.....these "One-Percenters", Pagans MC, didn't do much good for the meaning of the word.

It hasn't had much negative connotation for me as I've known legitimate pagans throughout most of my life and they were more the kind of people I'd have to refer to as the "Earth Mama" types and leftover hippies.

01/01/2009 05:21:42 PM · #40

Originally posted by pixelpig:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why do I have to do things your way? Why can't I just get my wife and/or daughter 'cause I love them, I want to, and it's Tuesday? Why can't I do good things because I've been blessed in life and want to give back? Why can't I help out someone because I'm capable of it and they need and want my help? Why do I have to go through the agony of someone else's demands just because it's some stupid tradition where meaningless things are done for some reason, and belief, that I don't share?

Don't tell me how to live, and don't try to make me into a bad guy because I don't buy into your traditions.

When's the last time you did something for someone because it was the right thing to do? Without the expectation for something in return?

Somebody mentioned the strain that the Christmas crap puts on some families who just cannot afford the commercialized crapload, so that they have to figure out some solution to because their kid sits next to someone else in school who's going to get the whole shebang.

That's ROTTEN!!!!!

I hate that I have to go through the exchange with my sister's family. They're three thousand miles away, we have nothing in common, they don't give a rat's ass about us or what we're doing the entire rest of the year, but like clockwork every year right after Thanksgiving, we get this demand from them to tell us what they're supposed to do for us for Christmas. They won't even make the effort to think of something on their own, or.....God forbid, get to know our daughter, find out maybe what she wants, and make the PERSONAL effort to thoughtfully get her a gift.

I've repeatedly asked that we just not do anything, but it falls on deaf ears. It's a load of crap because we don't share our lives at all.

My only point is this.....you want to celebrate, FINE......I just don't want this shoved down my throat and to be made out to be a bad guy if I choose to be giving and caring the rest of the year, because that's a special part of being a good person......not just once a year.

So if I'm a Scrooge because I hate the hypocrisy and falseness of what Christmas has become, fine, call me Ebenezer, but while I'm in Honduras in March building a house with the other twenty people from two churches here in town because we want to give back a little in gratitude for what we have, or when I'm doing a shoot of a dinner hosted by the food bank for the poor for their newsletter, just because they know me and asked me to do it, ask yourself what you can do for someone else just because.....

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

01/01/2009 05:28:11 PM · #41

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The point is that once in power, the Christians took the pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and other celebrations and deliberately attempted to replace them with their religious holidays. So, while the religious context of Christmas may be the Christian celebration of the birth of the savior, it's no mistake that the holiday overlaps much older pagan celebrations centered around the Winter solstice and that many of the most revered holiday traditions originate from those pagan celebrations.

So while this is obviously true, I always scratch my head and ask, "so what?" Are you arguing the world would be better off if we had the original holidays? Would it be better off if the Christians had decided to use a different date? Heck, I doubt you could find a day that hasn't had some sort of previous celebration.

I always see it presented as some devious takeover too. Who is to say the Christians, who didn't want to feel left out, decided they couldn't participate in the pagan festivals and created one of their own? What's wrong with that? It's going on as we speak with Hanukkah. Slowly the holiday is looking more and more like Christmas and is taking on more importance in the Jewish calendar. Hanukkah has previously been far from "important" among Jewish holidays, but it has gained importance. How many people outside the Northeast ever hear about Yom Kippur? It's far more important than Hannukah.

Anyway, I just ask again, "who cares?" What is your point in this Spaz?

If it were just the Christians wanting their own winter holiday while leaving the others alone, that would be one thing. Unfortunately, that's not the way it went down.

It was the deliberate and intentional obliteration of another religion and culture by Christians in yet another attempt to force conversion. People were executed, tortured and imprisoned for not conforming to the Christian beliefs. Their "offenses" included celebrating pagan holidays. But, hey a few thousand heretics tortured and killed in the name of Christ, that's no big deal right?

K3Master

Pentax K-3

01/01/2009 05:40:08 PM · #42

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by pixelpig:
I'm gonna Rant right back atcha. If I could take all the bah-humbug people & ship them off on a Princess Cruise to Alaska during my favorite holiday, I would. Nobody would miss you. We would be grateful you were gone. I'm so sick of the self-righteous anti-Christmas rhetoric, I could puke. Who cares why Christmas is a holiday or why we celebrate it. Or try to. It's fun. It's good for us to at least try to do something fun altogether as a whole nation. If the anti-Christmas people had their way, we would all have to celebrate like them--separately, privately, randomly.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why do I have to do things your way? Why can't I just get my wife and/or daughter 'cause I love them, I want to, and it's Tuesday? Why can't I do good things because I've been blessed in life and want to give back? Why can't I help out someone because I'm capable of it and they need and want my help? Why do I have to go through the agony of someone else's demands just because it's some stupid tradition where meaningless things are done for some reason, and belief, that I don't share?

Don't tell me how to live, and don't try to make me into a bad guy because I don't buy into your traditions.

When's the last time you did something for someone because it was the right thing to do? Without the expectation for something in return?

Somebody mentioned the strain that the Christmas crap puts on some families who just cannot afford the commercialized crapload, so that they have to figure out some solution to because their kid sits next to someone else in school who's going to get the whole shebang.

That's ROTTEN!!!!!

I hate that I have to go through the exchange with my sister's family. They're three thousand miles away, we have nothing in common, they don't give a rat's ass about us or what we're doing the entire rest of the year, but like clockwork every year right after Thanksgiving, we get this demand from them to tell us what they're supposed to do for us for Christmas. They won't even make the effort to think of something on their own, or.....God forbid, get to know our daughter, find out maybe what she wants, and make the PERSONAL effort to thoughtfully get her a gift.

I've repeatedly asked that we just not do anything, but it falls on deaf ears. It's a load of crap because we don't share our lives at all.

My only point is this.....you want to celebrate, FINE......I just don't want this shoved down my throat and to be made out to be a bad guy if I choose to be giving and caring the rest of the year, because that's a special part of being a good person......not just once a year.

So if I'm a Scrooge because I hate the hypocrisy and falseness of what Christmas has become, fine, call me Ebenezer, but while I'm in Honduras in March building a house with the other twenty people from two churches here in town because we want to give back a little in gratitude for what we have, or when I'm doing a shoot of a dinner hosted by the food bank for the poor for their newsletter, just because they know me and asked me to do it, ask yourself what you can do for someone else just because.....

the irony.

pixelpig

Sony Alpha a55

Sony DT 1.8/50mm SAM

01/01/2009 07:01:32 PM · #43

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I don't recall telling any of the bah-humbug people how to live. Nobody would listen to me if I did. But I do not like the anti-Christmas rhetoric, expecially at Christmas time. If you don't want to join in the fun, then why are you doing it? Why are you letting all this anger & resentment build up from one year to the next? That's what I don't understand. Why don't you just tell people that you don't keep Christmas & don't feel like talking about why. Maybe a Princess Cruise for you & your wife & kids would be just the thing. Get a tan. Eat a lot of shrimp. Avoid the color red. Oops, there I go telling you how to live! Sorry! I wish people would redirect all the bah-humbug energy to enjoying life in some other, non-Christmas way & stop grumping in my ear.

01/01/2009 07:11:32 PM · #44

Originally posted by pixelpig:

I don't like the religious rhetoric at the time of the Winter Solstice celebration.

crayon

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FH1

01/01/2009 08:24:38 PM · #45

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Aren't we still killing each other over stupid religious reasons?

i've always though religion was about power, influence and control. so religious war and killing is inevitable?

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

01/01/2009 09:40:16 PM · #46

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

It was the deliberate and intentional obliteration of another religion and culture by Christians in yet another attempt to force conversion. People were executed, tortured and imprisoned for not conforming to the Christian beliefs. Their "offenses" included celebrating pagan holidays. But, hey a few thousand heretics tortured and killed in the name of Christ, that's no big deal right?

I'm quite sure Christmas wasn't at the center of that movement. It's not like the torture and killing was done because we want Christmas OUR way. You are mixing up two quite separate things. Sure, be offended at the ills perpetrated by Christianity during those centuries, but you are tilting at windmills if you think you can lay all that at Christmas' feet.

Take the Christmas tree. Read the wiki on it. They cite the earliest Christian traditions with it at about the 16th century. The common belief is it is derived from Germanic (not druidic) paganism which was at it's height in the 11th century. So even if we allow some fudging of the dates on both sides, we are talking centuries. It's not like there was some Christmas tree patrol who goose stepped around declaring "this tree is about JESUS!!" to the local pagans one sudden Christmas. There may be very little linking the two other than there are a lot of evergreens in Germany.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

01/01/2009 10:02:52 PM · #47

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

There you go again. Making bold statements denouncing Christians with nothing but generic proof.

This is the 20th century. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people taking Christ's name in vane and using it to torture and kill people. Let me know if you have any examples of this happening within the last 200 years (and reference to Bush don't count, he's a idiot).

All this Christian bashing is getting to me. Maybe we should all be rounded up, put in camps and forced to wear gold crosses on our sleeves.

01/01/2009 10:12:35 PM · #48

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It was the deliberate and intentional obliteration of another religion and culture by Christians in yet another attempt to force conversion. People were executed, tortured and imprisoned for not conforming to the Christian beliefs. Their "offenses" included celebrating pagan holidays. But, hey a few thousand heretics tortured and killed in the name of Christ, that's no big deal right?

I'm quite sure Christmas wasn't at the center of that movement. It's not like the torture and killing was done because we want Christmas OUR way. You are mixing up two quite separate things. Sure, be offended at the ills perpetrated by Christianity during those centuries, but you are tilting at windmills if you think you can lay all that at Christmas' feet.

Take the Christmas tree. Read the wiki on it. They cite the earliest Christian traditions with it at about the 16th century. The common belief is it is derived from Germanic (not druidic) paganism which was at it's height in the 11th century. So even if we allow some fudging of the dates on both sides, we are talking centuries. It's not like there was some Christmas tree patrol who goose stepped around declaring "this tree is about JESUS!!" to the local pagans one sudden Christmas. There may be very little linking the two other than there are a lot of evergreens in Germany.

Almost all of the religious holidays were at the center of it, suppressing the "pagan" traditions was simply a part of the forced cultural indoctrination perpetrated by the Church.

Torture, killing and imprisonment was indeed done to any who didn't conform to ideals sanctioned by the church. That would include celebrating "pagan" holidays.

A more recent example would be the Missionaries "saving the primitive pagans of the new world, but the same motivating factors are at play; suppress the local religious customs and holidays by any means necessary and enforce conformity with Christianity, exorcising the pagan demons by force if necessary.

They wanted to bend the will of the populace to their belief system and torture, imprisonment and killing was just the Christian way to get it done.

At least now, the churches can't lock someone in the iron maiden or put them on the rack for practicing whatever religion they like. They have to shove it in your face through other means.

01/01/2009 10:21:09 PM · #49

Originally posted by Nullix:

...All this Christian bashing is getting to me. Maybe we should all be rounded up, put in camps and forced to wear gold crosses on our sleeves.

It's really a church bashing. And no, camps aren't necessary, acknowledgement of historical fact would suffice.