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12/12/2005 09:00:16 PM · #26 |
Dr Achoo -
I can appreciate your argument. It is a tough subject. Clearly the Lord is concerned with our spritual condition. Jesus' forgiveness was a demonstration of His ability to grant mercy from eternal punishment. It was not relating to the choice that the Government has to establish laws regarding capital punsihment. Christ never rescinded or rebuked the law of capital punishment by the magistrate. As a matter of fact God has established an eternal capital punishment for those who do not believe. 'For whom the blackness of darkness is reserved' for all of eternity. 'The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.' These things are written as a warning to us that if we continue in our wicked ways we can be assured of His punishment; the same can be said of the death penalty.
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12/12/2005 09:11:34 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
In high school, I took this view and felt the Bible supported it. However, as I looked at the question again later in life I realized that the only time Christ addresses captial punishment, when He confronts the adultress, He refuses to allow her execution. "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." What we fail to realize is that Jesus, of course, was Himself without sin and if Justice demanded such an action, then why didn't he stone her?
That passage, to me, carries far more weight than any Old Testament ideas. If the Man who is the namesake of my religion chose not to kill a woman when He had every right, what place do I have to demand the same?
I feel strongly that Christianity today has twisted biblical Justice. One read of Isaiah made me believe that God's Justice is much more concerned with upholding the rights of the underpriviledged (the "fatherless and the widow" of our time) than it is "giving someone what they deserve". If we received a taste of our own Justice, I think we would be a little slower to cast judgement.
EDIT: Spelling. |
I always knew I liked you, Doc :))
I, too am more a proponent of "turn the other cheek", then "eye for an eye" if we have to toss the bible into it. I believe any informed intelligent person, who is deciding, unburdened by the emotion of revenge, would choose LWOP.
I think most people react to this issue emotinally without being properly informed. |
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12/12/2005 09:19:34 PM · #28 |
| Free Tookie...with any purchase over $100!!! |
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12/12/2005 09:31:10 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by RickH:
Dr Achoo -
I can appreciate your argument. It is a tough subject. Clearly the Lord is concerned with our spritual condition. Jesus' forgiveness was a demonstration of His ability to grant mercy from eternal punishment. It was not relating to the choice that the Government has to establish laws regarding capital punsihment. Christ never rescinded or rebuked the law of capital punishment by the magistrate. As a matter of fact God has established an eternal capital punishment for those who do not believe. 'For whom the blackness of darkness is reserved' for all of eternity. 'The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.' These things are written as a warning to us that if we continue in our wicked ways we can be assured of His punishment; the same can be said of the death penalty. |
This sounds more like life in solitary to me.
We can't condem someone to an enternity of torment, just lock them up and force them to live with the penalities of their errors for the rest of their lives. |
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12/12/2005 09:42:45 PM · #30 |
'Torment' does not sound like confinement to me.
Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.
Proverbs 11:21 Though they join forces, the wicked will not go unpunished; But the posterity of the righteous will be delivered.
Jeramiah 11:11 ¶ Therefore thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them.
Matt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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12/12/2005 09:48:22 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by RickH:
Dr Achoo -
I can appreciate your argument. It is a tough subject. Clearly the Lord is concerned with our spritual condition. Jesus' forgiveness was a demonstration of His ability to grant mercy from eternal punishment. It was not relating to the choice that the Government has to establish laws regarding capital punsihment. Christ never rescinded or rebuked the law of capital punishment by the magistrate. As a matter of fact God has established an eternal capital punishment for those who do not believe. 'For whom the blackness of darkness is reserved' for all of eternity. 'The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.' These things are written as a warning to us that if we continue in our wicked ways we can be assured of His punishment; the same can be said of the death penalty. |
Just to make sure I'm clear here, the words magistrate and government make me think you are talking about the Romans, who occupied the land. However, it was Jewish law itself that condemned the woman.
To be sure, I agree that Jesus was making a point about mercy and forgiveness. But as I am a "little Christ" (lit. Christian), how could I not hope to do the same? I have neither the authority nor the ability to forgive sin in a spiritual sense, but I do have the ability to show mercy and biblical justice. We must take note that it was the woman caught in adultry that Jesus forgave and released. We know nothing about the man who was guilty as well. I can certainly imagine the biblical equivalent of the man hiring a "good lawyer" while the woman, being a second class citizen by gender, could not afford such defense. Once again, it shows me that God's Justice is afforded first to those who can protect themselves the least.
With this all said, I don't claim to hold a cornerstone on truth. I do strongly believe in my convictions, but fully realize that intelligent people hold the opposite belief. |
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12/12/2005 10:01:04 PM · #32 |
Though we can show mercy to our brother, we may have dificulty establishing the same standard in our government and they have every right to have an established death penalty. As such is the case in the United States; which has a government framed on biblical principles.
Message edited by author 2005-12-12 22:02:54. |
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12/12/2005 10:07:45 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by RickH:
Though we can show mercy to our brother, we may have dificulty establishing the same standard in our government and they have every right to have an established death penalty. As such is the case in the United States; which has a government framed on biblical principles. |
Well, the government framed on biblical principles accepted chattel slavery too, so I'm not gonna think they got everything right... |
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12/12/2005 10:32:53 PM · #34 |
Whether we agree or disagree with the death penalty isn't the point anyway. We all have the right to our own opinion and that is what forges this great country and why slavery has been abolished. The injustice was corrected by good men. 145,000 people have died today all over the world and one man is spotlighted. He is being held accountable for his actions. We may not agree with the method, but it is there for all to see. His death is a strong reminder of our accountability before the Lord. 'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.' A similar scene will take place some time in the future. Judgement day will come, and there we will have no say as to the method of punishment. May this event remind us that we too are accountable, and beseach the Lord for His mercy, so that we may not suffer the punishment that we so deserve.
Message edited by author 2005-12-12 22:33:56. |
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12/12/2005 10:39:30 PM · #35 |
My personal (and secular) concern is with the image this portrays to the youth he has been trying to steer clear of gangs since his "rehabilitation". (Prison IS about rehabilitation, you know, and when it actually happens, everyone scoffs.) How many youths will now say: why change? damned if you, damned if you don't - look at him, he turned around and they still offed him.
In my opinion, he should have been granted clemency because it would have sent a POSITIVE message to so many. You do receive a reward for changing for the better.
I think the death penalty is a waste of time. Death isn't even a real punishment for criminals, it's a fucking freedom from a cage. It also does not deter crime (which is obvious). And, really, it is fucking barbaric. We see executions on foreign tv and gasp in horror. Just because it's behind closed doors here doesn't make it any better.
Ultimately, I feel that he is not innocent. But, he is also no longer guilty.
There are a million holes in my story, and I know that. But while I can't fully comprehend this situation, I also have my gut reaction, which is: he should've absolutely been granted clemency and been offered a chance to stay in prison for life and do as much good as is humanly possible in his situation. He, as a gangmember who went down the worst road, is in a position to make so many positive things happen, even stuck in a cage.
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12/12/2005 10:59:43 PM · #36 |
| I can agree with 98% of your last post rich... |
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12/12/2005 11:10:34 PM · #37 |
| Being an Australian I only know of this case after reading recent news events. I am a supporter of the death penalty and I believe in an eye for an eye. I understand that this man seems to have done the right things whilst in prison all these years but should that allow him not to pay for his crimes? I wish we still had the death sentence here in Australia and I know there have been many calls for it in the past to be reinstated. Barbaric as it may be, think of the victims and their families that it has affected. I know everyone has their views on this subject so this is mine. |
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12/13/2005 12:18:42 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by kdkaboom:
My personal (and secular) concern is with the image this portrays to the youth he has been trying to steer clear of gangs since his "rehabilitation". (Prison IS about rehabilitation, you know, and when it actually happens, everyone scoffs.) How many youths will now say: why change? damned if you, damned if you don't - look at him, he turned around and they still offed him.
In my opinion, he should have been granted clemency because it would have sent a POSITIVE message to so many. You do receive a reward for changing for the better. |
Couldn't say it better myself. Our justice system as some serious flaws, but that is for another discussion.
Now, the one thing that keep thinking about is, has he really reformed, or did he just think that writing the books would give him a better chance at getting clemecy? Kinda hard to know since none of us are there.
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12/13/2005 12:54:12 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
The victims and their families spend eternity with the pain of loss while some scumbag sits in a "low budget" motel at tax payers expense. |
Actually, statistically it's cheaper for a prisoner to serve life in prison than to go through all of the court proecedures and everything prerequisite to the death penalty.
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12/13/2005 01:10:20 AM · #40 |
I hope Arnold is there when it happens and has one of his great one liners. "You've been terminated" "He won't be back"
But really if he was a so called reborn Christian he should have peace inside knowing that he has been forgiving be the only real being that matters and that is God...he has to reap what he sowed but if he has truly repented he should have no fear...if it was all a sham to try and get out of the death penalty then he better praying now.
I have probably posted after the event has already taken place but what I wrote still holds true.
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12/13/2005 01:19:26 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
The victims and their families spend eternity with the pain of loss while some scumbag sits in a "low budget" motel at tax payers expense. |
Actually, statistically it's cheaper for a prisoner to serve life in prison than to go through all of the court proecedures and everything prerequisite to the death penalty. |
I think that's a farce - either the statistic is flawed or made up or there is seriously something wrong with the process. |
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12/13/2005 02:02:53 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
The victims and their families spend eternity with the pain of loss while some scumbag sits in a "low budget" motel at tax payers expense. |
Actually, statistically it's cheaper for a prisoner to serve life in prison than to go through all of the court proecedures and everything prerequisite to the death penalty. |
I think that's a farce - either the statistic is flawed or made up or there is seriously something wrong with the process. |
Here's a good site to back up my assertion:
" Financial Costs
It is sometimes suggested that abolishing capital punishment is unfair to the taxpayer, as though life imprisonment were obviously more expensive than executions. If one takes into account all the relevant costs, the reverse is true. "The death penalty is not now, nor has it ever been, a more economical alternative to life imprisonment."(49)
A murder trial normally takes much longer when the death penalty is at issue than when it is not. Litigation costs - including the time of judges, prosecutors,public defenders, and court reporters, and the high costs of briefs -- are all borne by the taxpayer.
A 1982 study showed that were the death penalty to be reintroduced in New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more than double the cost of a life term in prison.(50)
In Maryland, a comparison of capital trial costs with and without the death penalty for the years 1979-1984 concluded that a death penalty case costs "approximately 42 percent more than a case resulting in a non-death sentence."(51) In 1988 and 1989 th e Kansas legislature voted against reinstating the death penalty after it was informed that reintroduction would involve a first-year cost of "more than $ 11 million."(52) Florida, with one of the nation's largest death rows, has estimated that the true cost of each execution is approximately $3.2 million, or approximately six times the cost of a life-imprisonment sentence.(53)
The only way to make the death penalty a "better buy" than imprisonment is to weaken due process and curtail appellate review, which are the defendant's (and society's) only protections against the grossest miscarriages of justice. The savings in dollar s would be at the cost of justice: In nearly half of the death-penalty cases given review under federal habeas corpus, the conviction is overturned.(54)
Financial Costs
It is sometimes suggested that abolishing capital punishment is unfair to the taxpayer, as though life imprisonment were obviously more expensive than executions. If one takes into account all the relevant costs, the reverse is true. "The death penalty is not now, nor has it ever been, a more economical alternative to life imprisonment."(49)
A murder trial normally takes much longer when the death penalty is at issue than when it is not. Litigation costs - including the time of judges, prosecutors,public defenders, and court reporters, and the high costs of briefs -- are all borne by the taxpayer.
A 1982 study showed that were the death penalty to be reintroduced in New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more than double the cost of a life term in prison.(50)
In Maryland, a comparison of capital trial costs with and without the death penalty for the years 1979-1984 concluded that a death penalty case costs "approximately 42 percent more than a case resulting in a non-death sentence."(51) In 1988 and 1989 th e Kansas legislature voted against reinstating the death penalty after it was informed that reintroduction would involve a first-year cost of "more than $ 11 million."(52) Florida, with one of the nation's largest death rows, has estimated that the true cost of each execution is approximately $3.2 million, or approximately six times the cost of a life-imprisonment sentence.(53)
The only way to make the death penalty a "better buy" than imprisonment is to weaken due process and curtail appellate review, which are the defendant's (and society's) only protections against the grossest miscarriages of justice. The savings in dollar s would be at the cost of justice: In nearly half of the death-penalty cases given review under federal habeas corpus, the conviction is overturned.(54) "
- //users.rcn.com/mwood/deathpen.html#Costs
Message edited by author 2005-12-13 02:09:48.
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12/13/2005 02:06:57 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Here's a good site to back up my assertion:
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Without reading the entire thing, I would just ask if the excerpt comes from a source that has an agenda or takes a position on the issue. If so, it should be balanced with studies and opinions from the opposing position. |
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12/13/2005 02:08:35 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Here's a good site to back up my assertion:
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Without reading the entire thing, I would just ask if the excerpt comes from a source that has an agenda or takes a position on the issue. If so, it should be balanced with studies and opinions from the opposing position. |
Whoa - got my answer...
American Civil Liberties Union
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12/13/2005 03:05:06 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by justin_hewlett:
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
The victims and their families spend eternity with the pain of loss while some scumbag sits in a "low budget" motel at tax payers expense. |
Actually, statistically it's cheaper for a prisoner to serve life in prison than to go through all of the court proecedures and everything prerequisite to the death penalty. |
I think that's a farce - either the statistic is flawed or made up or there is seriously something wrong with the process. |
Here's a good site to back up my assertion:
" Financial Costs
It is sometimes suggested that abolishing capital punishment is unfair to the taxpayer, as though life imprisonment were obviously more expensive than executions. If one takes into account all the relevant costs, the reverse is true. "The death penalty is not now, nor has it ever been, a more economical alternative to life imprisonment."(49)
A murder trial normally takes much longer when the death penalty is at issue than when it is not. Litigation costs - including the time of judges, prosecutors,public defenders, and court reporters, and the high costs of briefs -- are all borne by the taxpayer.
A 1982 study showed that were the death penalty to be reintroduced in New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more than double the cost of a life term in prison.(50)
In Maryland, a comparison of capital trial costs with and without the death penalty for the years 1979-1984 concluded that a death penalty case costs "approximately 42 percent more than a case resulting in a non-death sentence."(51) In 1988 and 1989 th e Kansas legislature voted against reinstating the death penalty after it was informed that reintroduction would involve a first-year cost of "more than $ 11 million."(52) Florida, with one of the nation's largest death rows, has estimated that the true cost of each execution is approximately $3.2 million, or approximately six times the cost of a life-imprisonment sentence.(53)
The only way to make the death penalty a "better buy" than imprisonment is to weaken due process and curtail appellate review, which are the defendant's (and society's) only protections against the grossest miscarriages of justice. The savings in dollar s would be at the cost of justice: In nearly half of the death-penalty cases given review under federal habeas corpus, the conviction is overturned.(54)
Financial Costs
It is sometimes suggested that abolishing capital punishment is unfair to the taxpayer, as though life imprisonment were obviously more expensive than executions. If one takes into account all the relevant costs, the reverse is true. "The death penalty is not now, nor has it ever been, a more economical alternative to life imprisonment."(49)
A murder trial normally takes much longer when the death penalty is at issue than when it is not. Litigation costs - including the time of judges, prosecutors,public defenders, and court reporters, and the high costs of briefs -- are all borne by the taxpayer.
A 1982 study showed that were the death penalty to be reintroduced in New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more than double the cost of a life term in prison.(50)
In Maryland, a comparison of capital trial costs with and without the death penalty for the years 1979-1984 concluded that a death penalty case costs "approximately 42 percent more than a case resulting in a non-death sentence."(51) In 1988 and 1989 th e Kansas legislature voted against reinstating the death penalty after it was informed that reintroduction would involve a first-year cost of "more than $ 11 million."(52) Florida, with one of the nation's largest death rows, has estimated that the true cost of each execution is approximately $3.2 million, or approximately six times the cost of a life-imprisonment sentence.(53)
The only way to make the death penalty a "better buy" than imprisonment is to weaken due process and curtail appellate review, which are the defendant's (and society's) only protections against the grossest miscarriages of justice. The savings in dollar s would be at the cost of justice: In nearly half of the death-penalty cases given review under federal habeas corpus, the conviction is overturned.(54) "
- //users.rcn.com/mwood/deathpen.html#Costs |
By a five dollar rope and use it more than once. Public hangings would definitely make an impression on little gang bangers. |
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12/13/2005 03:25:46 AM · #46 |
I rarely post here, but this thread really caught my attention, as it conatins so many of the views which frequently polarize our society. Yet here so far the discussion has been both honest and civil - good to see. THAT is what makes not just "our country" great, but all societies which value freedom. So, that said, here's my bi-annual post.
I find myself in agreement with DrAchoo. Christianity constantly call us to walk the path of Christ. This implies acting as Christ would, not as God would. Christ explicitly implored us not to judge and condemn others but instead to forgive as we have been forgiven. Leave the judgement and retribution to God. For us here on earth, it is enough to simply try and find the strength to forgive, as that simple act requires much greater strength than does revenge.
btw, while I dont consider myself a "Liberal" I know plenty of folks who are and are in fact against both abortion and the death penalty.
my 2.5 cents. |
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12/13/2005 08:35:12 AM · #47 |
Well...
for someone who never showed any remorse for his crimes and even to the end said he was innocent (although he said he was redeemed in prison), I cannot speak to his innocence or guilt. BUT, anyone who claims (he only made this claim in his book) to be a cofounder of a gang such as the Crips (started out as the Baby Cribs, Crips grew out of bad grammer/speech) when he wasn't (fact is, he came on the scene in 1969 - two to two and half years AFTER the gang was already operating) sure wants to be associated with a violent history and seems to want recognition for it.
Clemency or not I believe he was right where he should have been - childrens books or not. They really weren't that good anyway. He is gone now, but if they left him there to rot would have been fine with me. I think all the publicity over this only served the wrong cause.
Only my opinion.
Message edited by author 2005-12-13 08:51:46. |
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12/13/2005 08:50:18 AM · #48 |
I think if he does not get Clemency, no one ever will... i mean what more does he or any prisoner have to do, kill him self???
In any case we are talking about the rest of his life in prison not freedom..
I will be sad when he gets killed, not personaly for him, but for the fact that the USA government is so primitive and barbaric
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12/13/2005 09:41:36 AM · #49 |
Before ya'll get so upset about "how many people" he helped in the writing of his childrens books, please find the number of books that actually sold.
If my source was correct (and I'll have to dig it up because I read it like 3 weeks ago), less than a 1000 copies of all the books combined.
Not exactly a far reaching message. We have almost that many crips here in WNC (podunk-villes). Didn't reach them.
I suspect now the numbers will go higher because he is dead and people will want to see what he wrote.
edit -- A source I just found says it is less than 400. I think one sold like 300 something and another sold like 2 or so. And no where has said that they were well written books or appealing to children.
edited again -- from blackamericaweb.com
[quote]The portrayal of Williams as some Pied Piper of Peace for the gang community also holds very little water. A quick review of Book Scan shows the Tookie series of books have hardly been blockbusters. His top seller, “Gangs and Violence,” has sold 330 copies. Another book, “Gangs and Wanting to Belong,” sold exactly two copies. [/quote]
Message edited by author 2005-12-13 09:47:54. |
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12/13/2005 09:47:19 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by buzzrock:
Should he have been granted Clemency?
Yes/No?-- Why/Why-Not? |
The original question ".....Clemency? Yes/No?-- Why/Why-Not?"
for those against murder, is flawed and objectionable, as it assumes that institutional/goverment sanctioned vengence is credible and acceptable. Sadly the reality of American justice compels one to respond. Arguements based on religion, for and against, as in this thread - can each be convincing but ultimately prove to be useless as a universal answer. Societies absolutely must look further. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Mahatma Gandhi |
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