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06/18/2003 05:19:13 AM · #1
I have been affiliated with dpc for over a year now, but have only been an occasional visitor for the last 6 months or so. I decided to get away from dpc and do some other things, primarily because of the constant debate over whether or not an image met the challenge. To put it another way, there was a lot of negativism (is that a word?). I submitted this time for the magazine cover, and here are some of the comments that illustrate the negative bias:

"You should do this kind of shot for your own personal enjoyment. Entering it at dpc is guaranteed to hurt your score just by being "A Setzler""

and ...

"A beautiful image and executed well. It is a good shot, but you are gonna get trashed by some people for the flag theme and "copying" setzler's classic shot."

I got pretty much what I expected, and you predicted that I would get it. This confirms to me that I am not the only one that feels the way I do.

how about this one!?!

"Gotta love plagarism. You could of at least tried to make this picture slightly different to "Liberty and Justice", unfortunately for yourself I regard originality and some self-creativity quite highly when voting photos. This is almost an EXACT rip-off of possibly the most popular photo on DPChallenge.com SHAME ON YOU."

To which I say, put them side by side and you will see many differences. I must say that I appreciated John Setzler's vote when he said;

"excellent shot.. = 10"

He didn't have to comment, or vote on it at all. Thanks John! While on a positive note, about half of the comments were positive. Here is another;

"the concept and idea is not original but you still captured the image very good. still got a high score."

and ...

"Composition of background is what sets this apart from all the many similar shots we've seen recently. I think that this would work well as a cover. 8"

and my favorite comment ...

"Wow. Of couse, it's been done before, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done again. I like the wavy look and the composition that anchors everything towards the right bottom corner. Can't find fault with this at all. 10"

I am trying to improve my photography, not run a political campaign. This submission was based on a project that was printed in Popular Photography magazine about a year ago. This is the first time that I have attempted this technique and spent 3 hours and about 50 shots to evaluate the technique. Just because it has been done before doesn't mean that no one else should try it. I wish that some of the folks on this site would concentrate more on evaluating images on their own merit, and not "trashing" perfectly good images for mindless reasons.
While there is no "perfect site", I will continue to spend most of my on-line time at other photo sites where I get broader feedback.
To view the image and all of the comments, follow this link:

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=24338

Thanks for your time.

Pete
06/18/2003 05:25:23 AM · #2
I agree that it having been done before should stop other people doing it themselves. I think your show is very different to John's, in fact, I think it is better! It was my only 10 I gave in the challenge. Everything about the shot looks perfect in my eyes. There have maybe been 7 or 8 attempts at this effect on the site, which I would hardly say was unoriginal compared to the number of flower shots, sunset shots, etc.
06/18/2003 05:30:31 AM · #3
why don't we have a water droplets on glas challenge so everyone can do this shot ;)

no, seriously, i think it's a great shot too and there is nothing wrong with doing something that's been done with your twist on it.

It's too bad some people can't show a little courtesy when making comments. One of them was downright rude.

After thinking about this for a bit, I am kind of appalled that Pete's shot got so much negativity. One of the things that seems most highly prized here is learning. Well, wasn't Pete learning a new technique? How many people can say they used a challenge here to specifically learn somethiing new? Personally, I think black on black is going to be a small challenge because some people don't want to bother with that technique. If this site is really about learning, then someone who copies a high profile shot and does a better job of it has won more than a damn ribbon in my book.

Message edited by author 2003-06-18 06:07:07.
06/18/2003 05:33:15 AM · #4

I´m really agree that it´s very good shot... In my country, there is a typical sentence which says that the second part of something is worst than the first... But in this situation, I think the remake is better than the original....

06/18/2003 05:37:38 AM · #5
We suffer here from the fact that peoples ideas of originality are often limited to DPC.

If it's the first time something has been seen on this site it's considered original, even though, in many cases, a photographer, such as Setzler, has been inspired by work he or she has seen elsewhere.

In that respect your shot is as original as most water droplet shots I've seen here including Liberty and Justice.

And, to my mind, that doesn't make the good ones any less striking or the poor ones any more appealing.

A photography teacher once said to be (quoting some else but I can't remember who) - "There is nothing new under the sun" -most broad ideas have been thought of before - your task is to bring your own creativity to those ideas. Of course, sometimes we can come up with new ideas also.

I think if more members browsed both other photographic websites and went to exhibitions and read magazines and books on well known photographers that they might appreciate how often my teacher was accurate.
06/18/2003 05:47:27 AM · #6
As one of the 5 or 6 people who have entered this "overused"!??? technique I congratulate you on doing such a good job.

Problem is, the voters on this site have stopped voting on the quality of the photo and have started finding every possible excuse, whether related to photography or not, to vote entries down.

So how come water splash shots do so well yet water drop shots get hammered??? :-/

Message edited by author 2003-06-18 05:55:46.
06/18/2003 06:26:44 AM · #7
Originally posted by bod:

So how come water splash shots do so well yet water drop shots get hammered??? :-/


I think my water drop shot did okay. Well *technically* it wasn't water, but hey, close enough.

Responding to your picture pnicholls - I think you did a great job with it. I didn't get to vote on it but I'm sure I'd have given it a good score. BUT I think with stuff like this, I'd have chosen a different subject if you knew about Liberty and Justice. Other water drop photos have done pretty well too, so its possible to do well. My shot //www.dpchallenge.com/image.php/i/24102 has drops but I tried to come up with something a little different. Its definitely a copied technique, I just tried to make the actual subject matter different. It came out much better than I expected.

So rest assured, your shot is a high quality one. Personally I would've chosen a different subject as to avoid the shouts about plagiarism and such, but that's just how I am.

Ok, done.... Bob
06/18/2003 08:28:49 AM · #8
Thanks to those that have responded, I appreciate you stepping forward and sharing your thoughts. In reply to inspzil:

Originally posted by inspzil:

...Personally I would've chosen a different subject...


It was actually a bandana from Michael's and not a flag, but with June 14th being flag day and Independence Day around the corner, I thought it was an appropriate subject.

Message edited by author 2003-06-18 08:29:27.
06/18/2003 08:31:11 AM · #9
No rest for the weary :(
06/18/2003 09:24:01 AM · #10
Y'know, thoughtless assholes are not limited to DPC. I deal with it by

(a) not having my ego wrapped up in my shots -- made easier by the fact that I myself admit they mostly don't deserve more than 5!
(b) ignoring comments that are blatantly stupid or unhelpful. 'I'd prefer a better focus' is helpful. 'You're ripping off !!' is NOT, and does not deserve to be so checked.

My grandmother has a useful phrase: Consider the source and ignore it. My mother's got another: Bless them out of your life. And my dad's: Attention is just what they want. :->

Everywhere has downsides. If you throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of just ignoring the annoyances, well, you probably deserve your dissatisfaction, I suppose. Me, I'm a pollyanna, so I'm chugging along.

You still ended up with a more-than-6 composite vote, which is damn good, and over half your voters gave you a 6 or higher, if you look at your vote histogram. Just because the only people who bothered to comment were the idiots and a few useful ego-slatherers doesn't mean there weren't a lot of other people giving you 7, 8, or 9.

Message edited by author 2003-06-18 09:25:18.
06/18/2003 09:39:09 AM · #11
"You should do this kind of shot for your own personal enjoyment. Entering it at dpc is guaranteed to hurt your score just by being "A Setzler""

That's my comment - I didn't write "I'm marking you down for having a Setzler." I wrote that it would hurt your score cuz people will see only John's shot. I think it's great to learn this type of technique. I think if you do, you have guaranteed yourself some 1s. That's all my comment was saying.

M
06/18/2003 12:49:51 PM · #12
DPC + Thin Skin = Frustrated, Stressed photographer.

06/18/2003 01:15:24 PM · #13
Well I gave you an 8, which was one of my highest votes for this cahllenge. No nines or tens, which I normally do when I go back over all the photos (bumping up or down).

To be honest I only voted on about 40% of the photos and commented on 2 photos. I felt there was a lot of negitivity in this challenge, which put me off. I didn't even submit.
06/18/2003 01:27:23 PM · #14
Well, your favorite comment was from me, then. Nice to know. I was anticipating you receiving a lot of the negative comments that you did get.
I've tried this exact same setup at home trying to replicate such good results and always wind up walking away before I lose my temper because I can never get my water drops so perfect, even using Rain-X... So I appreciate the effort you put into it.

To me, doesn't matter if it's been done before. You worked hard at the composition, though about it, and submitted a technically excellent shot.
06/18/2003 04:43:44 PM · #15
I think that seeing an interesting technique SHOULD inspire us to try it! Once we learn that technique, we can often bend or use it in some other way, but if we start by copying others, to some extent, this is how we learn. I post my weekly Favorite Photographer Profile for this very reason: I learn from these photographers and try to emulate their techniques. If part of my learning curve ends up in a challenge, so be it.
06/18/2003 04:48:36 PM · #16
[quote=dsidwell]I think that seeing an interesting technique SHOULD inspire us to try it! Once we learn that technique, we can often bend or use it in some other way, but if we start by copying others, to some extent, this is how we learn. I post my weekly Favorite Photographer Profile for this very reason: I learn from these photographers and try to emulate their techniques. If part of my learning curve ends up in a challenge, so be it.[/quote
-----------
I really like what you said here dsidwell. 'Once we learn that technique, we can often bend or use it in some other way, but if we start by copying others, to some extent, this is how we learn.' Profound
06/18/2003 04:55:28 PM · #17
Being 'original' is a good thing. This particular technique in question here is not the easiest thing in the world to pull off as nicely as was done here. It's an excellent shot.

My comment to anyone that even suggested that this photo should not have been in this challenge is: #$&% off... If you can't handle seeing recurring themes, you have a problem.
06/18/2003 05:07:26 PM · #18
it seems to me, that since i have been submitting for about 6 months now, that things seem to be getting a little nastierin a lot of the threads. i could be wrong, and it could be none of my business, and maybe this comment does not belong here, but maybe we all need an attitude adjustment to become a little nicer and a little more tolerant and create a better dpc experience.

just my opinion from my little corner of dpc.






06/18/2003 05:10:04 PM · #19
Originally posted by STEINR:

it seems to me, that since i have been submitting for about 6 months now, that things seem to be getting a little nastierin a lot of the threads. i could be wrong, and it could be none of my business, and maybe this comment does not belong here, but maybe we all need an attitude adjustment to become a little nicer and a little more tolerant and create a better dpc experience.

just my opinion from my little corner of dpc.


Here here.
06/18/2003 05:11:16 PM · #20
You are allowed to post frustrations in the rant forum :)
06/18/2003 05:17:22 PM · #21
imho, rant and nasty are not the same. rant is ok, it is good to vent, nasty is not. and i did not mean to single any one person out, it is just a general observation.


06/18/2003 05:17:59 PM · #22
Just have a little thicker skin. I thought it was an excellent shot. With the droplet's reflection, they really popped against the part of the flag/bandana you used. I forgot who mentioned it, but they hit it on the head. There's a good portion of voters here who don't do anything what-so-ever photography related outside of DPC.
[sarcasm]
So I guess from now on, all flower, kid and sunset shots will get this nifty comment I picked up from someone:
"Sorry, not very original, just a variation of someone else's photo."[/sarcasm]

"Good artists copy, great artists steal" -Picasso
So with that, I would carry on.
06/18/2003 05:18:34 PM · #23
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

You are allowed to post frustrations in the rant forum :)


True, John. But... these people got a point here, haven't they?
There ís more tension in the forums lately.
06/18/2003 05:21:28 PM · #24
I don't know if it's 'tension' or simply a lot of debate. Debate is healthy and I don't find it stressful. I suppose that some do though, but that probably won't change much.
06/18/2003 05:30:25 PM · #25
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

My comment to anyone that even suggested that this photo should not have been in this challenge is: #$&% off... If you can't handle seeing recurring themes, you have a problem.


I suggest that a 6.0 is a good score. I also suggest that if you don't want 10+ 1's, you don't submit half naked women with nipple showing or water drop shots. That's just the truth of it. It's not a recurring theme, it's a recurring technique - can't we just have a water drop/water refraction/water splash challenge and get it done with?

M
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