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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Minimal Editing and Sharpening
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02/05/2023 12:42:07 PM · #1
Hello all!

So the Macro challenge is my first Minimal Editing challenge, and it's been pretty fun restricting myself to the rules.

One thing that I'm curious about is why Sharpening is allowed, and how it's the only thing you can effectively do apart from a full desaturation.

I don't disagree with it at all - in fact my curiosity is due to me only recently getting properly into Lightroom and Photoshop and not having had much experience with the sharpening tools or much luck with them. I mean, they certainly don't fix focusing issues and seem to add quite a lot of noise. From what I understand they mainly are to do with definition along strong lines in the image, but I haven't seen much dramatic effect even if I have been adding a touch to all my images.

I know a lot of DPCers use a lot of sharpening. So is it something you use? Do you have any tips of when and how to use it? Is it meant to give the image more 'sharpness' in the layman's sense or is it something else I'm looking for as a result?

And then after all that, if it isn't obvious from people's responses, why would it be allowed in minimal editing?

Thanks!
02/05/2023 12:47:36 PM · #2
Often an image can become softened when scaling down to web size. I think it is considered a reasonable global adjustment to maintain the original appearance. Just make sure it is done as a simple global adjustment (sharpen) and not one that can be highly tweaked like using a high radius unsharp mask.
02/05/2023 12:53:55 PM · #3
Sharpening refers to enhancement of detail -- we have a couple of tutorials on the subject (scroll way down).

We allow it in Minimal because we require the images be re-sized, which almost always degrades the detail.

Personally, I use Photoshop's UnSharp Mask filter, which allows a degree of control over the process -- it's a digital version of an actual photographic technique often used in the printing business.
02/05/2023 12:55:21 PM · #4
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Often an image can become softened when scaling down to web size. I think it is considered a reasonable global adjustment to maintain the original appearance. Just make sure it is done as a simple global adjustment (sharpen) and not one that can be highly tweaked like using a high radius unsharp mask.

UnSharp Mask is allowed in Minimal, but it does have to be applied to the entire image at once..
02/05/2023 01:07:39 PM · #5
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Often an image can become softened when scaling down to web size. I think it is considered a reasonable global adjustment to maintain the original appearance. Just make sure it is done as a simple global adjustment (sharpen) and not one that can be highly tweaked like using a high radius unsharp mask.


Originally posted by GeneralE:

Sharpening refers to enhancement of detail -- we have a couple of tutorials on the subject (scroll way down).

We allow it in Minimal because we require the images be re-sized, which almost always degrades the detail.

Personally, I use Photoshop's UnSharp Mask filter, which allows a degree of control over the process -- it's a digital version of an actual photographic technique often used in the printing business.


Thank you for your thoughts!

So you would apply sharpening after resizing perhaps?
02/05/2023 01:43:08 PM · #6
Originally posted by Rankles:

So you would apply sharpening after resizing perhaps?

Yes. Last step before uplaoding.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

UnSharp Mask is allowed in Minimal, but it does have to be applied to the entire image at once..

Ah, that may be a rules update from a few years ago that I wasn't aware of. Thanks.
02/07/2023 12:21:20 PM · #7
Originally posted by GeneralE:

UnSharp Mask is allowed in Minimal, but it does have to be applied to the entire image at once..


Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Ah, that may be a rules update from a few years ago that I wasn't aware of. Thanks.


I was always under the impression that any of the adjustments allowed in Minimal were global only.
02/07/2023 02:14:27 PM · #8
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

UnSharp Mask is allowed in Minimal, but it does have to be applied to the entire image at once..

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Ah, that may be a rules update from a few years ago that I wasn't aware of. Thanks.

I was always under the impression that any of the adjustments allowed in Minimal were global only.

Unsharp Mask IS global. The reason it wasn't previously allowed is that it basically uses another layer in its creation. We decided that this was pretty nit-picky of us, since it's an excellent global sharpening technique, so we decided to allow it a few years ago.
02/07/2023 03:56:52 PM · #9
Just wanted to chime in with another option... if you are resizing in Ps, you have a choice of downsampling methods, some of which will result in much more retained detail than others. Further, if you are starting from a very large image, it may be desirable to downsize in two or more steps, and then you have a choice of which downsampling method to use with each step.
As far as I can see, the Minimal Rules are mum on downsampling, so stepwise downsampling should be allowble.

Example:
If I start with an EOS R5 image at 8192x5461 pixels, I might first downsample to 4800px wide, then to 2400px, and finally to 1200px. I choose the first step to put me at a size that is a multiple of two of the 1200px final size.

Message edited by author 2023-02-07 16:00:00.
02/07/2023 05:37:15 PM · #10
Originally posted by kirbic:

Example:
If I start with an EOS R5 image at 8192x5461 pixels, I might first downsample to 4800px wide, then to 2400px, and finally to 1200px. I choose the first step to put me at a size that is a multiple of two of the 1200px final size.

Since I'm willing to have the final image slightly smaller than then 1200px maximum, I prefer to downsample in "even" percentages, as I believe (but can't prove) that dealing with fractions of pixels makes for a less-accurate result.

The first reduction listed above is 58.59375% -- I would take it to 4096px (50%) and proceed from there. My (small) camera takes a 2816px image -- 40% of that takes it to 1126px, which is close enough to the max for me, and has the added benefit of often fitting under the 700kb cap at a higher quality setting. This is basically following the above strategy but making the "odd" reduction the last step rather than the first.

Message edited by author 2023-02-07 17:38:40.
02/07/2023 09:24:57 PM · #11
Originally posted by kirbic:

Example: If I start with an EOS R5 image at 8192x5461 pixels, I might first downsample to 4800px wide, then to 2400px, and finally to 1200px. I choose the first step to put me at a size that is a multiple of two of the 1200px final size.


Originally posted by GeneralE:

Since I'm willing to have the final image slightly smaller than then 1200px maximum, I prefer to downsample in "even" percentages, as I believe (but can't prove) that dealing with fractions of pixels makes for a less-accurate result.
The first reduction listed above is 58.59375% -- I would take it to 4096px (50%) and proceed from there. My (small) camera takes a 2816px image -- 40% of that takes it to 1126px, which is close enough to the max for me, and has the added benefit of often fitting under the 700kb cap at a higher quality setting. This is basically following the above strategy but making the "odd" reduction the last step rather than the first.


As much as I'm scared to ask.......'cause forgiveness is easier to get than permission......

Sharpening....must be global.

You talk about downsizing in steps, what about sharpening?

Is it permissible to sharpen when a downsize is made? Each time should one want?
02/07/2023 11:32:49 PM · #12
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You talk about downsizing in steps, what about sharpening?

Is it permissible to sharpen when a downsize is made? Each time should one want?

IMO the current rules as we've been discussing allow it, but note I have more than one DQ based on differing rules interpretation ... :-(

Perhaps you can experiment and let us know if it makes a differences ... ;-)
02/08/2023 12:11:32 AM · #13
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

...Is it permissible to sharpen when a downsize is made? Each time should one want?


You can control the amount of "sharpening" when downsizing by selecting an appropriate samping algorithm, e.g. "Bicubic Smoother" for less detail, or "Preserve Details" for more. You could use different algorithms on different steps, nothing in the rules as written prevents that. Experiment. It's actually the best way there is to retain the maximum detail without intrusive artifacts.
02/08/2023 08:37:47 AM · #14
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

...Is it permissible to sharpen when a downsize is made? Each time should one want?


Originally posted by kirbic:

You can control the amount of "sharpening" when downsizing by selecting an appropriate samping algorithm, e.g. "Bicubic Smoother" for less detail, or "Preserve Details" for more. You could use different algorithms on different steps, nothing in the rules as written prevents that. Experiment. It's actually the best way there is to retain the maximum detail without intrusive artifacts.


What my question is has to do with repeated applications of a sharpening tool, not the level of each individual step.

Can I down size a file halfway to the submission size, sharpen it, then drop it to the correct size and sharpen it again, making the process two separate sharpening steps?
02/08/2023 10:22:46 AM · #15
Understood Jeb. Perhaps I wasn't clear... I'm suggesting using the downsampling itself to achieve the sharpening, no additional sharpening needed. It's not only possible but actually is best practice, just takes some practice. And experimentation.
02/08/2023 11:41:02 AM · #16
Originally posted by kirbic:

Understood Jeb. Perhaps I wasn't clear... I'm suggesting using the downsampling itself to achieve the sharpening, no additional sharpening needed. It's not only possible but actually is best practice, just takes some practice. And experimentation.


And AGAIN, I'm *NOT* asking how to sharpen, I'm asking if I *MAY* sharpen twice during downsizing steps.

As in, reduce size, sharpen, reduce size again, SHARPEN AGAIN.....

I heard about the technique here in the DPC forums, referred to as Adamus Sharpening as it was a technique noted by photographer Marc Adamus.
02/08/2023 12:27:34 PM · #17
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by kirbic:

Understood Jeb. Perhaps I wasn't clear... I'm suggesting using the downsampling itself to achieve the sharpening, no additional sharpening needed. It's not only possible but actually is best practice, just takes some practice. And experimentation.

And AGAIN, I'm *NOT* asking how to sharpen, I'm asking if I *MAY* sharpen twice during downsizing steps.

As in, reduce size, sharpen, reduce size again, SHARPEN AGAIN.....

I heard about the technique here in the DPC forums, referred to as Adamus Sharpening as it was a technique noted by photographer Marc Adamus.

There's nothing in the rule about multiple passes of sharpening, Jeb. Adamus your heart out.
02/08/2023 05:02:16 PM · #18
Yep, you can resize and sharpen as many times as you wish, there is nothing in the rules at all about repeating these operations.
02/08/2023 08:59:38 PM · #19
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm asking if I *MAY* sharpen twice during downsizing steps.


Originally posted by Bear_Music:

There's nothing in the rule about multiple passes of sharpening, Jeb. Adamus your heart out.


Originally posted by kirbic:

Yep, you can resize and sharpen as many times as you wish, there is nothing in the rules at all about repeating these operations.


Cooooooooooooooooooooooool!

Thanx, guys!

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