DSLR''s...too little too soon? - DPChallenge Forums

07/30/2002 10:14:31 AM · #1

I have been reading some interesting discussions around the internet that has been centering around the real need for an interchangeable lens system on cameras.

The idea is that the latest DSLR's are nothing but compromises, using 35mm body design just to extend the life of the aging lens systems out there being used by 35 mm film photographers.

The argument goes like this. Interchangeable lens systems open the inside of the camera to contamination. Logic would say that an all in one solution would be superior for the most contamination free photos.

Plus, smaller sensors..while not offering as large a pixel as the DSLR sensors..do offer better focus capabilities and greater light range.

Light is one of the biggest hurdles any photographer faces and the compromise of adding a lens designed for film onto a digital camera means you lose wide angles at reasonable prices and iso speed.

Also the lenses could be a heck of a lot smaller than the 35mm add ons because digital cameras do not need the mirror in th body and therfore can get the lens much closer to the sensor, allowing the lenses to get smaller.

My question.

Even though digital SLR prices are getting lower each day (dropping as fast as computer chip prices) is it still early to adopt this tech in a modified 35mm format.

Is Olympus really on to something with their take on the digital market and would it be better to own 2 cameras(in the future)..one with a fixed 16-100mm capability and another at a 100-400mm each one costing $1,000 each (or better less) versus spending $4,000 on a DSLR system that may not even be the best way to go technology wise?

Just curious what the REAL digital camera users think versus all the film people on the net.

07/30/2002 10:24:11 AM · #2

I would like to see Sony expand on the F707 technology. The only real issue that keeps me from wanting to stay with this format is the lack of depth of field. If I could effectively stop down to F22, I don't think that I would care to have a DSLR at all.

The smaller lens on the non slr digitals makes a very small aperture for F8 and I don't think they can effecively make the aperture much smaller and get enough light into the CCD for the exposure.

The non slr digital market seems to be moving more towards high res pocket cameras rather than trying to replace the SLR format. I think that the SLR manufacturers are making digitals in an effort to lure the film photographers into a market that they are uncomfortable with.

The only reason I want a SLR digital is because I can't effective duplicate my image quality with my current digital camera.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

07/30/2002 10:40:42 AM · #3

John if I had been at this site BEFORE buying my Canon I might have gone with the Sony.

The better zoom would address some of my concerns with the Canon and help postpone my DSLR search. I like to shoot sports and concerts but the Canon G2 is just too short of zoom and focus speed/accuracy for that kind of photo regularly.

If I already had some AF lenses from either Canon or Nikon my thinking might be different. But a complete investment in DSLR (body and lenses) right now seems out of the question. But that is a good thing I think now, with the tech changing so quickly.

What freaks me out is this stampede to buy expensive digital SLR's. Canon, Nikon and Fuji can't make em fast enough it seems.

I will admit. If a Canon 1D could be had at 6 megapixels with no loss of speed or focus capability at under 2 grand I might have to break open my piggy bank
:-) I think in time this will be a reality.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

07/30/2002 10:42:26 AM · #4

the fuji s1 i use at work allows me to stop down to whatever the lens will go to, which in one case is f/27 and in the other f/40!!!

the macro dof with these settings is incredible!!

07/30/2002 10:47:52 AM · #5

So mag..the question. Would you buy one of the new DSLR's..especially since youhave a very capable Oly e-10?

07/30/2002 10:51:14 AM · #6

Well, I went with the Olympus E-20 for the following reasons:

1. Can''t afford the D-SLR''s!! (that''s the big''un!, and a personal reason)

2. Read and heard too much about dust and contamination on the image sensor of the D-SLR''s because it isn''t sealed.... Couldn''t bring myself to spend that kind of $$ to always have a problem spot-editing or having to go thru the expensive image sensor cleaning.

3. Personal discussions with professional photographers (that I know and trust) said the light lens on a digital body does not effectively use the pixel wells. The light is refracted thru a light lens to optimize a film plate, where on a digital body a digital lens causes the light to hit the pixel wells at a 90 deg. angle.
** How evident is this??? Dunno. But I couldn''t afford high end lenses.

4. Film is estimated to be at around the equivalent of 6MP. At an 8X10 print size, there is no discernable difference to the eye between 5MP and 6MP. Which led me to evaluate my needs: to print no larger than 8X10 on a regular basis, and probably no more than 11X14, as I''m doing portraits, weddings, events...

5. There is word out there that manufacturers are attempting an image sensor the same size as a film plate: Therefore you wouldn''t need to do the conversions for focal length. Contax has this out - for a huge price. But others will follow, and eventually the price will come down.
I thought it was worth waiting spending the big bucks until this could be mastered.

Just some thoughts and personal FYI''s.
;-)

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/30/2002 10:51:28 AM.

Patella

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

07/30/2002 10:51:17 AM · #7

I keep waiting for someone to take a decent camera (4-6 MP) and stick a lens system on it like my Sony Mavica FD-91. That 14X Zeiss optical zoom coupled with the steadyshot is absolutely amazing. If they want to throw a digital zoom on top of that, go ahead. The 10X that are out there are nice, but that extra 4X makes a large difference. (No pun intended.)

Coupled with that incredible zoom, I can get as close as 1" from macro subjects. Any closer, and you start having problems with the lens blocking light anyway.

Finally, not lens related, I love my LCD viewfinder in addition to the LCD screen on the back. If I hold the shutter button down after I shoot, I see the shot I captured in the viewfinder without having to go through the whole process of switching to viewing mode, turning on the screen and looking at the back. Basically, I don't have to change my shooting "posture." This gives me even faster feedback on each shot. (Don't know if this last one made sense.)

I think an all in one camera is very possible. They just need to listen to the people who are using the things and build a camera to "spec" as it were.

07/30/2002 10:54:58 AM · #8

yeah Patella...you bring up a good point about the LCD.

That was my other thing I liked about my Canon, the swivel LCD.

So lets see where we are at on my wish list.

A Canon 1D with at least 6 megapixels, 8fps, build quality of a pro SLR, swivel LCD, dustproof sensor, film focus speed all for under $2,000....

I want one!!!

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/30/2002 10:54:33 AM.

07/30/2002 10:55:09 AM · #9

Originally posted by Karen Bryan:
1. Can''t afford the D-SLR''s!! (that''s the big''un!, and a personal reason)

The E-20 is a DSLR...

07/30/2002 10:57:21 AM · #10

Okay.. revision... I can't afford the interchangeable lens D-SLRs

Froober

Canon EOS-10D

07/30/2002 11:02:29 AM · #11

You guys are convincing me even more to stay away from the interchangeable lenses. My bank account thanks you.

07/30/2002 11:03:42 AM · #12

Originally posted by Karen Bryan:
Okay.. revision... I can't afford the interchangeable lens D-SLRs

That is a BIG concern for most folks not making their living (and even some that do) on photography.

A nice DSLR needs nice lenses. For Canon that means L series and they are about $1,000 each minimum depending on focal length with some as much as $4,000 or more.

What scared me would be if in a year the technology moved to multiple cameras (ala Olympus E-20) with fixed lenses.

You could own an Olympus E-30wz (fictional number :-) with the 'wz' standing for wide angle zoom of 18-100 mm and own an Olympus E-30lz with the 'lz' standing for a long zoom of 100-400. Each bought for about $1,200 and Voila!!! A semi pro kit. Add a 5-8 fps speed and fast auto focus and sign me up!

07/30/2002 11:05:25 AM · #13

Interchangeable lenses may not be a real necessity...

I have learned to rethink the way I shoot my photos with my F707. This camera has a 5x optical and 10x digital zoom. I have the digital zoom shut down in the camera so I don't accidentally get into that range.

Since I got into digital, I have also started shooting some 35mm slides for my camera club competitions. I have a 28-80mm lens and a 70-300mm lens for my Nikon. I have not used the 300mm lens at all since I have started using that camera again and I am itching to buy a 24mm lens...

07/30/2002 11:12:35 AM · #14

Not that you can always trust the salesman, but....
According to Hunt Camera (respected in this area), and what I've read on the internet, the only new thing coming out is that new image sensor size. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't come out with an announcement that no one anticipated...
But, keeping up with technology is always like that.... always one step behind even if you think you can just about reach it with your fingertips.
Can you deal with your current set up for another year? Two? Or are you chomping at the bit too much (like I was - for good or for bad)?

07/30/2002 11:13:23 AM · #15

I have an old Nikon FA film camera and I see your point John...I have some long manual zooms that I don't use often. I leave my 28 mm lens on the camera all the time but that is why I bought the digital. The G2 did all the 28 mm range stuff (group shots and general nature stuff) good enough. But now I find myself really wanting to use those zooms...stupid 3x zoom on the Canon G2 >:-/

07/30/2002 11:15:45 AM · #16

I just think that my styles of photography don't usually require a lot of zoom. There are times when it is nice to have, but the extra resolution of the 5mp camera will allow me to crop and get a zoomed image without losing too much of the image usually.

Printing that cropped image may or may not be possible, depending on the size of the crop...

07/30/2002 11:17:20 AM · #17

Originally posted by Karen Bryan:
Not that you can always trust the salesman, but....
According to Hunt Camera (respected in this area), and what I've read on the internet, the only new thing coming out is that new image sensor size. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't come out with an announcement that no one anticipated...
But, keeping up with technology is always like that.... always one step behind even if you think you can just about reach it with your fingertips.
Can you deal with your current set up for another year? Two? Or are you chomping at the bit too much (like I was - for good or for bad)?

My main "Itch" is a decent long range zoom. 300mm or maybe longer prime lens and some real action speed. Not this floating af on my Canon G2.

I was thinking a nikon D1H which is still a great comera but that freakin 2 megapixel stuff kills my enthusiasm to spend over $3,000!

The Canon 1D is almost perfect. Fast, 4mp sensor, built like a tank. But at about $5,000 I owuld end up divorced if I bought one..hmmmmmmmm heheheh Just kidding honey!!!!

Ronin

Sony DSC-S85

07/30/2002 11:36:56 AM · #18

Sorta off topic but I was just reading that the camera that they installed on the Hubble telescope shoots at 16 million MP,.. now thats a big ass picture.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

07/30/2002 11:40:09 AM · #19

Originally posted by Ronin:
Sorta off topic but I was just reading that the camera that they installed on the Hubble telescope shoots at 16 million MP,.. now thats a big ass picture.

But I heard the focus was a bit soft :-)

Ronin

Sony DSC-S85

07/30/2002 11:42:34 AM · #20

I wonder when NASA will be entering in the challenge

welcher

Canon EOS-5D

07/30/2002 11:43:56 AM · #21

I've got a pretty nice compliment of Canon AF lenses, including some sweet Image Stabilization lenses. I'm itching for a nice D60 to really open up my digital photography.

I love my S40, and take it places I would never take a DSLR, but man, does it hold me back sometimes. I was really limited in Munich, and almost plunked down the cash for a D60 when I got back.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

07/30/2002 11:49:07 AM · #22

i think the e-10 is great. it does what it does QUITE well.

some beefs:

max shutter of 1/640 s ... this can be problematic when i want to use a wide aperature with strobes.

the color rendition on the e-10 is not my favorite. it tends to either unsaturated and flat, or yellowish, or both. sometimes it's good but more often than not i have to tweak the daylights out of it to get something i like.

on the plus side:

the lens is sharp as a tack

the 35-140mm zoom is usually perfect for almost everything, occasionally i find myself wishing for 400mm zoom (wishing i'd bought the 2100UZ when it was down to $499).

would i get an interchangeable dlsr? yes, in heartbeat - IF i could afford it. In fact, that's what I wanted! Using that s1 at work made me want an s1, but it was too much $ for me. also, everything i've seen comign out of the d1x looks awesome. the 1D is also alluring.

for me, the e-10 is a compromise, albeit a very very decent one, considering that i got it for just under a grand.

Originally posted by hokie:
So mag..the question. Would you buy one of the new DSLR's..especially since youhave a very capable Oly e-10?

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

07/30/2002 11:49:40 AM · #23

it's ok. nasa allows unsharp mask...

Originally posted by hokie:
Originally posted by Ronin:
[i]Sorta off topic but I was just reading that the camera that they installed on the Hubble telescope shoots at 16 million MP,.. now thats a big ass picture.

But I heard the focus was a bit soft :-)[/i]

07/30/2002 11:49:57 AM · #24

The D60 seems to be the clear winner in the prosumer DSLR market for general performance. The Fuji S2 has some slight resolution advantages but with a huge speed cost and the Nikon has the best low light and focusing but with a soft image/noise issue.

Once again, the Canon 1D seems to be so good I am frustrated that the Nikon and Fuji offerings (and the Canon to a lesser extent) just aren't going to push the 1D down in price and the 1D speed, focusing and build seems to be what I need to feel comfortable about DSLR's.