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11/01/2013 02:54:10 PM · #626
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

I'm not wrapped up so much in the healthcare issue as I am concerned about the political polarization that blinds people and prevents them from seeing that the "other side" may have legitimate complaints and concerns.

Can we remember that we've HAD health care under the for-profit "free enterprise" system for the past half-century, and during the ACA debate the one thing both sides seemed to agree on was that it was atrocious.


Agreed. Unfortunately, we still have health care under the for-profit 'free enterprise' system. Now there's just a new set of rules that are increasing the cost of figuring out how to royally fuck the consumer. I have little faith that the companies won't find a way to remain highly profitable, and I cannot but imagine costs will rise, and therefore expect that we will all find that costs will spiral quickly out of control.... Put it this way, nothing so far has shown me that my preconceptions and biases are unjustified.
11/01/2013 03:31:48 PM · #627
That's why, in the polls, a significant proportion of those "dissatisfied" with the ACA believe that it doesn't go far enough -- that a nationwide, single-payer system (such as MediCare and the VA) could bring significant savings in addition to providing both greater access to and better quality of care.
11/01/2013 03:41:00 PM · #628
I'm good with either truly free market, or a genuine national healthcare system.

What I'm not ok with is this bastard child.

I think that when government legislation mandates that individuals do business with a private company, bad things are nearly certain to follow, since the company simply isn't EVER going to lose, and this gives them, to some degree, carte blanche - if you're required to do business with them, then there's no real consumer push-back which usually serves to ensure that the company must EARN your business.. As it is, we now are legally required to make these purchases, and there are no limits placed upon profits or costs.

..

Just for fun, if you don't already know all about it, go do some research into what hospitals call the "Charge Master"... As best I know, the ACA did nothing to fix the basic issues that are the real cause of healthcare cost overruns in the country, and in fact, from everything I do know (not an expert), it would seem that they've actually added in additional overhead, without any real intervention into what is already a corrupted and unfair system which benefits only the corporations and not the people.

Message edited by author 2013-11-01 16:00:15.
11/01/2013 04:17:07 PM · #629
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

I'm not wrapped up so much in the healthcare issue as I am concerned about the political polarization that blinds people and prevents them from seeing that the "other side" may have legitimate complaints and concerns.

Can we remember that we've HAD health care under the for-profit "free enterprise" system for the past half-century, and during the ACA debate the one thing both sides seemed to agree on was that it was atrocious.

IMO, it sucked for some, but was fairly good for most. Now it will be the reverse.

We'll see how things play out, but PLEASE don't defend lies, bungling and ineptitude just because this is heading in the direction you prefer.
11/01/2013 08:49:46 PM · #630
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

We'll see how things play out, but PLEASE don't defend lies, bungling and ineptitude just because this is heading in the direction you prefer.

Why bring Apple Maps or (any launch of Windows) into the argument ...? ;-)

Everybody wants instant gratification and a bugless start -- get real. When MediCare got started it suffered many of the same start-up pains, yet within a couple if years was seen as indispensible. Practically everything has problems at the start (auto recall, security patch anyone?). Adobe just "gave away" a few million credit card numbers -- that's more likely to cost people more than an increase in their premiums, but I don't hear calls for the CEO to be "impeached" ...

To me, the only issue is whether people will be able to sign up by the 12/15 deadline for coverage starting in January -- as long as that happens all this current hoopla will be just a lot of "sound and fury, signifying nothing."
11/02/2013 01:36:20 PM · #631
11/02/2013 04:26:38 PM · #632
Originally posted by GeneralE:



Response from an equally biased source. Both have their points.

So, let me ask you, why do we always treat issues like this as either/or issues? Seems to me like we need to do both, and a few more things as well.
11/04/2013 02:06:30 AM · #633
So..

Here's a fun one... Looks like the switch over is going to screw some very ill people.
11/06/2013 11:23:37 AM · #634
Originally posted by Cory:

So..

Here's a fun one... Looks like the switch over is going to screw some very ill people.


Many of these stories have been debunked:

The Real Reason that the Cancer Patient Writing in Today's Wall Street Journal Lost Her Insurance

Running this piece as an op-ed allowed the writer to not do any real journalism. Unfortunately, no real journalism seems to be the rule rather than the exception when it comes to covering health care reform. She would have lost her coverage whether Obamacare existed or not, and if Obamacare didn't exist she would never find coverage again given her pre-existing condition.

How to Spot a Fake Obamacare Horror Story

And, Cory, for your information, the subsidy eligibility income limits under the ACA are as follows:

$45,960 (1 person)
$62,040 (family of 2)
$78,120 (family of 3)
$94,200 (family of 4)

So based on what you've told us about your income, you should be eligible for some level of subsidy (unless you define "a little over $40,000" in a very unusual way).
11/06/2013 11:37:47 AM · #635
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Cory:

So..

Here's a fun one... Looks like the switch over is going to screw some very ill people.


Many of these stories have been debunked:

The Real Reason that the Cancer Patient Writing in Today's Wall Street Journal Lost Her Insurance

Running this piece as an op-ed allowed the writer to not do any real journalism. Unfortunately, no real journalism seems to be the rule rather than the exception when it comes to covering health care reform. She would have lost her coverage whether Obamacare existed or not, and if Obamacare didn't exist she would never find coverage again given her pre-existing condition.

How to Spot a Fake Obamacare Horror Story

And, Cory, for your information, the subsidy eligibility income limits under the ACA are as follows:

$45,960 (1 person)
$62,040 (family of 2)
$78,120 (family of 3)
$94,200 (family of 4)

So based on what you've told us about your income, you should be eligible for some level of subsidy (unless you define "a little over $40,000" in a very unusual way).


1 person, and yes, I do fall just over the 'you pay for everyone else' line.

So, as far as the silly examples you posted above, first of all, I absolutely call foul. They imply that the new coverage is more comprehensive, and with lower out of pocket costs, which justifies the higher premiums. Bullshit. I have higher out of pocket costs now, higher deductibles, higher premiums, and less coverage.

Sounds to me like they need to call me and have a little chat so I can set them straight.
11/06/2013 01:02:40 PM · #636
Cory, I don't at all want to pry into your personal matters, but I'm interested in how Humana told you you had to switch plans, and what they said.
11/06/2013 01:36:30 PM · #637
Chris Hayes has done a pretty good series this past week:

Affordable Care Facts - Part 1 (10/28/2013)

Affordable Care Facts - Part 2 (10/28/2013)

More on the ACA (10/29/2013)

The New Obamacare Boogeyman (10/30/2013)

Media Serves Up Obamacare Scare Stories (11/4/2013)
11/06/2013 08:52:52 PM · #638
Cory,

You cant reason with liberals.... They bend the numbers to suit their needs....They think the more govmt subsidies the better. ( distribution of wealth )
11/06/2013 09:27:13 PM · #639
Thanks for posting up Anne Coulter's reasoned logic. Ya, those people are liars, and you should not listen to, or speak with them. But we understand them better than they understand themselves.
11/06/2013 09:41:33 PM · #640
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Cory,

You cant reason with liberals.... They bend the numbers to suit their needs....They think the more govmt subsidies the better. ( distribution of wealth )


Sadly Cowboy, I get the very distinct impression that government subsidies equates to the distribution of wealth exclusively to the poor and underemployed.

Do take the time to look at all the programs that are directed exclusively at and for the benefit of big business and the well to do, and then tell me which you think gets the best deal.

As far as reasoning with liberals, the sad truth about that comment is that we have not seen any efforts in this regard in recent years. Both groups seem so entrenched in their beliefs that they will not engage in any meaningful discussions and as a result the country is paying dearly for it... witness the recent debacle.

Viewed from the sidelines, what is happening in the USA today is a very sad debacle.

Ray
11/06/2013 10:16:49 PM · #641
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Cory,

You cant reason with liberals.... They bend the numbers to suit their needs....They think the more govmt subsidies the better. ( distribution of wealth )


Right. Unfortunately for Republicans, Obamacare is a conservative idea.
11/06/2013 10:59:14 PM · #642
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Cory,

You cant reason with liberals.... They bend the numbers to suit their needs....They think the more govmt subsidies the better. ( distribution of wealth )


Right. Unfortunately for Republicans, Obamacare is a conservative idea.


Really???????? It was on Obama's agenda from day 1... and before that it was Ted Kennedy. ( Kennedy's proposal had been shot down many times) Liberals always try to blame someone else for the mess we are in..... Look at Obama...he has blamed everyone except for himself. I still occasionally hear Bush Jrs name thrown out there to blame...I mean come on
11/06/2013 10:59:14 PM · #643
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Cory,

You cant reason with liberals.... They bend the numbers to suit their needs....They think the more govmt subsidies the better. ( distribution of wealth )


Right. Unfortunately for Republicans, Obamacare is a conservative idea.


Really???????? It was on Obama's agenda from day 1... and before that it was Ted Kennedy. ( Kennedy's proposal had been shot down many times) Liberals always try to blame someone else for the mess we are in..... Look at Obama...he has blamed everyone except for himself. I still occasionally hear Bush Jrs name thrown out there to blame...I mean come on
11/06/2013 11:19:46 PM · #644
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Really???????? It was on Obama's agenda from day 1... and before that it was Ted Kennedy. ( Kennedy's proposal had been shot down many times) Liberals always try to blame someone else for the mess we are in..... Look at Obama...he has blamed everyone except for himself. I still occasionally hear Bush Jrs name thrown out there to blame...I mean come on


You have no CLUE, Adam! It's maddening. RONALD REAGAN proposed a health care bill that was pretty much what Obamacare is now. MITT ROMNEY worked to enact the Massachusetts law that is the model for the ACA, Obamacare. Trust me: if it were just up to the liberals, we'd have true socialized medicine like what you seem to fear, like what the trest of the world already has. A single-payer system is the only one that makes economic sense.

That we DON'T have such a system in place is a measure of just how much liberals have compromised with conservatives to try to fix this massive clusterf**k that is the American health care delivery system.

You don't have a clue...

ETA:

Another, and more immediate, Republican precursor:

"With the Affordable Care Act’s first big test starting Tuesday, and the Republican push to repeal the act due largely to their claims of the unconstitutionality of the individual mandate, it seems appropriate to note the history surrounding the controversial issue. The substantial amount of contrarianism that has occurred in the past two decades is nothing short of astounding.
The fact that the individual mandate has deep Republican roots cannot be denied.The idea of an individual mandate replacing the single-payer health care system was proposed in 1989 by the conservative Heritage Foundation and was published in a paper titled, “A National Health System for America.”

In the paper, the Heritage Foundation’s director of domestic policy strategies, Stuart M. Butler, proposed that “every resident of the U.S. must, by law, be enrolled in an adequate health care plan to cover major health care costs.”

The proposal was backed by a large number of Republican politicians and was strikingly similar to the Affordable Care Act signed by Obama in 2010, which was admittedly influenced by Heritage’s proposal.

...It should be noted that President George H.W. Bush supported the individual mandate and even before this, both Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan supported various universal health care mandates."

"And in 1994, another Republican bill, titled the “Consumer Choice Health Security Act of 1994,” initially included an individual mandate.

Republicans who co-sponsored the 1994 bill, but now oppose the Affordable Care Act include: Senators Dan Coats, Charles Grassley, Orrin Hatch, and former Senators Robert Bennett, Judd Gregg, Kay Bailey Hutchison, and Richard Lugar.

Senator John McCain once supported the individual mandate as well, when in the early 1990s he made a speech proposing the individual mandate as a counter to the health care reform Bill Clinton was proposing, according to the Miami Herald."

Adam, it's just willful blindness to claim, against all evidence, that the ACA is a uniquely liberal concept that will somehow lead to the death of the Republic. It's nothing of the sort: it's just the latest in a LONG LINE of attempts by BOTH parties to apply some sort of fix that can contain skyrocketing health care costs.

Message edited by author 2013-11-06 23:29:44.
11/06/2013 11:32:09 PM · #645
Here is a link from Forbes (a conservative leaning business magazine) about how Gingrich (a conservative congressman) and Romney (a conservative governor) agreed that the roots of the individual mandate was being promoted by the Heritage Foundation (a conservative think tank) as a conservative response to Hillary-care or the single payer system which is what most of the first world uses.

If liberals were in charge, we would not be looking at the implementation of the kluge that is the ACA, we would have a much simpler single payer system, but Obama though he would go for a compromise. That was IMHO a serious mistake.
11/07/2013 12:26:28 AM · #646
And if you read up on the implementation of health care reform in Massachusetts (the original Obamacare), you'll see that for the first two years the legislature passed several bills to fix various aspects of the legislation that weren't working as envisioned, and I believe (if I'm recalling this correctly) that they even enacted price controls. The federal Affordable Care Act will probably need fixes/improvements, in my opinion, but do you think it's going to be possible to improve upon it with the Congress we've got now? No bloody way! If it can even survive the next couple of years, the way the Republicans are trying to sabotage it.
11/07/2013 02:35:20 AM · #647
Originally posted by bohemka:

Cory, I don't at all want to pry into your personal matters, but I'm interested in how Humana told you you had to switch plans, and what they said.


I don't even know if I have the original - the jist was that they were leaving the state due to the affordable care act.. To be followed up by a letter telling me that I could get their coverage through the exchange. I haven't selected a provider yet, and gotten my final cost nailed down, but the estimates are truly terrifyingly high, and the coverage is, at best, silver level.

11/08/2013 07:04:23 PM · #648
Since this rant has become largely about Obamacare, I figured I would post this video here.
In it John Green rants about why healthcare is so expensive in the United States, and how we get so little for the money we spend.
Its not really about the ACA, but aimed at why we need something to replace the inefficient and expensive system we have.
11/09/2013 01:26:25 PM · #649
Another video.

11/12/2013 03:29:07 PM · #650
Another Health Insurer Caught Falsely Cancelling Thousands of Health Plans
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