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 05/20/2011 02:42:18 PM · #26
Re cropping: framing in the viewfinder was always for me the most significant aspect of getting a good photograph. This was when I was shooting film. It was not until I got a Dslr (chosen for the Pentax viewfinder) that I could recover (some of) that most satisfying experience. It is most unfortunate that most viewfinders, even on my current Pentax, do not render the full frame. It is possible to frame on an LCD, of course, but what with the sun, reflections and distance from the eye it is a different sort of dance.

I am amazed that there is not more agreement with this correct point of view!
 05/20/2011 02:46:06 PM · #27
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...no cropping seems as artificial as demanding that the picture must also be taken standing on one leg. You can't crop your way into good light or good contrast or good subject. The demand serves little purpose in furthering our skill in real photography.


I take your point, as far as artificiality of framing is concerned. Nevertheless, there's a LONG tradition in "art" photography of masters of the craft being unwilling to crop, insisting that the composition must be fully realized at the moment of capture. And it's a wonderful discipline. Even now, I am happiest with images I make that require no cropping; I feel, in some intangible way, that I have really *succeeded* when that happens.

Maybe it's just a carryover from my zone system days...

R.
 05/20/2011 02:47:04 PM · #28
Prohibiting cropping causes me to "move my feet" more, compose with care and analyze the light. Allowing an after-the-fact crop moves many artistic and technical decisions from the field to the computer screen. Cropping later causes an abdication (or at least a procrastination) of decisions BEST made through the camera's viewfinder.
 05/20/2011 02:52:29 PM · #29
I intentionally shoot with room to crop on my lowly 6 mp sensor, as I want the option to be able to print at different aspect ratios. I have a couple of challenge entries that I have printed at both 8x10 and 11x14. A tight 4x6 composition straight from the camera would limit those options.

Tim

Message edited by author 2011-05-20 15:01:16.
 05/20/2011 02:55:46 PM · #30
I always gathered that a good photograph was a well composed one and a crop can do wonders for the composition. Taking away the crop limitation takes away the effort required for a good composition.
 05/20/2011 03:05:44 PM · #31
In my college days I used to hold my negatives with an extra wide holder so the sprocket holes would show. Wasting possible images space showing the edges of your film was the chest thumping macho display to show that you had not needed the crutch of cropping to get your framing right.

Today in the world of digital you can still see images presented with the sprocket borders. In the closing shots of "From the edge" Peter Lik's "photography" show on the weather channel he always has his last image show with the "look ma, no cropping" sprocket frame, on an image he took from a digital camera. Such silliness.
 05/20/2011 03:07:10 PM · #32
LOL. Using "Peter Lik" and "minimal" in the same post is an oxymoron... ;D
 05/20/2011 03:07:59 PM · #33
I would totally love to be able to crop on Minimal Editing. Of course, if they allowed cropping I would then I would want to be able to straighten the image, too. No harm in some minor straightening, right? If they allowed straightening and cropping, then I would want...

...maybe they should just leave the rules alone.
 05/20/2011 03:43:42 PM · #34
Here, here!

Originally posted by markwiley:
I would totally love to be able to crop on Minimal Editing. Of course, if they allowed cropping I would then I would want to be able to straighten the image, too. No harm in some minor straightening, right? If they allowed straightening and cropping, then I would want...

...maybe they should just leave the rules alone.
05/20/2011 03:47:57 PM · #35
The only thing I hate more than minimal editing is tweaking the rulesets so there is less and less difference between them. Let minimal be minimal and adjust your skills as necessary.
 05/20/2011 03:48:42 PM · #36
But of course I love to crop. One of the perks of digital. and what markwiley said.

What we seem to be missing is the essence of the photographer's shooting experience. A once only. And an almost censorious challenge to the modern mien that believes we can fix everything...
 05/20/2011 05:57:10 PM · #37
Originally posted by tnun:
But of course I love to crop. One of the perks of digital. and what markwiley said.

What we seem to be missing is the essence of the photographer's shooting experience. A once only. And an almost censorious challenge to the modern mien that believes we can fix everything...


But you can't fix a bad photo with pp. You can camouflage its weak points to an extent, but those who know what to look for will still see the flaws...and too much pp will eventually only highlight the same flaws you're trying to hide. I have yet to see a ribbon-winning photo here that was a crappy photo, saved only by use of PS and its kin.
 05/20/2011 07:13:37 PM · #38
Well, I wasn't really referring to photos in the fix everything part... Try plastic surgery, grief counseling, insurance, gated communities... On the other hand, I tend to think it is possible to turn a bad photo into something, as well as a good photo into something. Else.
 05/20/2011 07:15:58 PM · #39
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Socom:
I just posted this in the other thread, I would really like something between minimal and basic, where you could crop and remove sensor dust. But thats all. No sharpen, diffuse or whatever. But you can still rotate.

For any challenge from basic editing on up, you can choose to edit any way you like. You don't have to do any editing if you want. Minimal was implemented as an editing set to (in part) appease those that wanted to get at the 'straight from the camera' approach to photography. Once you start adding in conditional bits, you have muddied it up too much.

One reason sharpening has been included as one of a very few editing options is the well understood situation that modern DSLRs images straight from the camera are actually 'desharpened' to allow post processing and sharpening to be done post processing.


Sorry Peter, but not exactly true. It's more of a cause and effect situation. Since the capture of light is different on a digital sensor than that of film it creates a softer image when viewing the RAW file which is a straight capture of data from the sensor for a couple of reasons.

1) The sensor is a circuit board covered by a grid that forms the pixels that will eventually capture the light. The color of the light hitting any particular pixel is determined by a Bayer Array or group of Red, Blue and Green filters. Based on the wavelength of the light whatever light makes it through the filters is the color that any one pixel will be. Due to the fact that...even on a very small level there is a grid or space between each pixel "bucket" the manufactures had to use an additional filter to slightly soften that gap in between in order to make the image smoother and also deal with light spill over from pixels...this is the cause...and the effect would be a softer RAW image that normally needs a small amount of pre-sharpening in post. Jpegs are created from the same RAW data which is also softened and THEN the camera profile settings are applied such as in camera sharpening, contrast etc. The resulting JPEG file can be very crisp and detailed with no further post production needed is shot correctly. Of course one can always bring the jpeg into post for stylization if desired, but saying that the vendors intentionally soften the images in order to do post is inaccurate and would also assume that EVERY person who bought a DSLR planned on editing their images. Simply not the case.

2) Also, the additional placement of a dust and UV filter in front of the sensor adds to the softening of the image which is also why the RAW file needs some level of pre-sharpening in most cases...and again the jpeg gets the camera profile settings after the fact.

Dave
05/20/2011 07:33:09 PM · #40
Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

Sorry Peter, but not exactly true.

Yep - you are right. I went back and re-read what I wrote this AM and was not completely accurate. It is how "I" interpret it. You and Richard Hahn did a far better job of describing the physics of digital sensors and the need to filter the pixels to avoid artifacts etc. By using RAW image and most JPEG settings, the images are not 'oversharpened' by the camera, allowing for more control by the photog in post-processing. Thanks for correcting my inaccurate statements. Cheers!
 05/20/2011 09:41:41 PM · #41
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Cropping can make a HUGE impact on a photograph, changing the entire feel of what the original shot was.

Before: After:
05/20/2011 09:49:31 PM · #42
The way I started years ago, and believe me I am not old, was with a Hasselblad that I luckily found in the attic and an improvised dark room. And all the books I could get on HCB and Adget. I still have that camera.
I certainly did some cropping in the dark room and manipulate the contrast and darkness. For Bresson somebody else did it.

With the minimal editing in digital, I a am a bit confused. I use photoshop.
1- is it allowed only desaturating to get to B&W (if the camera was not set for it) or is it possible to do Adjustments to B&W?
2- can we use from Adjustments Brightness/Contrast?

I participated in the Light on White where I simply did nothing. But for HCB a bit of darkness/lightness in street photography will be beneficiary.

Could anybody illuminate me please?
05/20/2011 10:00:03 PM · #43
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
The only thing I hate more than minimal editing is tweaking the rulesets so there is less and less difference between them. Let minimal be minimal and adjust your skills as necessary.


Well said!! And thanks for the photo examples GeneralE! Well shown!
 05/20/2011 10:16:30 PM · #44
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by bergiekat:
Cropping can make a HUGE impact on a photograph, changing the entire feel of what the original shot was.

Before: After:


That's a very dramatic difference! Excellent demo set.
 05/20/2011 10:53:15 PM · #45
Originally posted by mariuca:
With the minimal editing in digital, I a am a bit confused. I use photoshop.
1- is it allowed only desaturating to get to B&W (if the camera was not set for it) or is it possible to do Adjustments to B&W?
2- can we use from Adjustments Brightness/Contrast?

You can convert to B&W, but pretty much only by just converting to Grayscale Mode -- you are not allowed to use anything to make tonal adjustments either before or after conversion.

I just was double-checking, and in Photoshop you can also convert to B&W by using the menu item Image > Adjust > Desaturate; it has no user-controlled adjustments. I don't think it looks any different by remains in RGB mode, which would be a larger file as PSD or uncompressed, but probably the same size as the Grayscale file in JPEG.

Message edited by author 2011-05-20 23:40:02.
 05/20/2011 11:09:53 PM · #46
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by mariuca:
With the minimal editing in digital, I a am a bit confused. I use photoshop.
1- is it allowed only desaturating to get to B&W (if the camera was not set for it) or is it possible to do Adjustments to B&W?
2- can we use from Adjustments Brightness/Contrast?

You can convert to B&W, but pretty much only by just converting to Grayscale Mode -- you are not allowed to use anything to make tonal adjustments either before or after conversion.


Thanks. Download, desaturate, post. What could be easier? Said Bresson!
 05/20/2011 11:30:58 PM · #47
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Let minimal be minimal and adjust your skills as necessary.


Exactly...thanks for posting what I was thinking. Now get the heck out of my mind...thanks. ;)
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