Lighting equipment - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

06/15/2004 03:06:31 AM · #1

I recently decided that it�s time I learned a little more about lighting for photography. I want to learn how to better control the lighting of my subjects in order to improve my photos. Therefore, I�ve been doing some research on the different types of lighting equipment. I�m finding that it�s definitely a multifaceted and complex subject. There are several types of light sources, such as tungsten, halogen, fluorescent, Hydragyrum Medium arc-length Iodide (HMI), High Intensity Discharge (HID), and a plethora of strobe and flash units. Plus, the gazillions of accessories that go with them, like softboxes, umbrellas, reflectors, snoots, scoops, scrims, etc., etc. Lots and lots of great new toys! If it were up to me I�d just buy a bit of everything, and then just go have fun. However, my wife sees things a little differently. For some strange reason she seems to think that we might need the money in our savings and investment accounts for other things as we get older. Yes, I know it�s silly, but that�s just the way she is. I love the little nitwit anyway, so I�m limited in how much I can spend on lighting equipment.

I recently bought a couple of cheap halogen work lights and played with them a little, but the light is very harsh and they�re extremely hot. I plan to experiment more with them, using various types of material to soften and/or bounce the light. However, I�ll still want to invest a little money in some decent lighting equipment eventually. So the question is what to buy? I know I�ll want some stands, and maybe a boom or two, but what about light sources? Should I go with strobe light(s), or a continuous light source like tungsten? Floods, spots, fresnels, open-face, or monolights? What about other goodies like softboxes, umbrellas, reflectors, etc.?

I�d love to hear any suggestions. What do you use, and why?

--Mick

dhare

Nikon D7000

06/15/2004 03:16:39 AM · #2

I'd be interested to see some suggestions as well.

KevinRiggs

Canon EOS-1Ds

06/15/2004 08:06:31 AM · #3

Originally posted by micknewton:

For some strange reason she seems to think that we might need the money in our savings and investment accounts for other things as we get older. Yes, I know it�s silly, but that�s just the way she is. I love the little nitwit anyway, so I�m limited in how much I can spend on lighting equipment.

Yeah, but haven't you explained that this is for photography??? Surely she's not unreasonable, right? What a grand or ten here or there?

I can't speak to much on lighting but I did shoot with a set of 5 Speedotrons BlackLine 202VF's, LiteDome softboxes of varying sizes and two 2400ws powerpacks (240xxx, I don't remember 'cause I rented the whole setup). It was incredibly impressive in how fast the lights recycled. By the end of the 4 hour shoot I was blowing the breaker on the main powerpack about every 10th shot 'cause we'd just used it and used it and used it and . . . . You get the point. Now I went nuts over those. I'd wanted some Alien Bees 'cause I can afford those much more easily but when I asked around the Pro forum and the Lighting forum on FredMiranda I quickly found that Speedotrons are great for most work but they truly aren't even the "top of the line" setup for fashion studios. According to a post by Daschund Woolf (one of the moderators) for speed of recycle time and color reliability pros might think more of a set from ProFoto, Broncolor and Balcar (link to post).

I can say that after that shoot I walked away knowing that I don't want a garage setup with AB's anymore. I'm impressed with what other produce with them and I'm impressed by the "I'm gonna work with these to understand lighting" mentality of some photographers. For my personal taste, gimme some o' dem lights that recycle like nobody's business and seriously light up the whole set. 2400ws might be overkill but I came away with about 1300 good frames out of 1400 that we shot (a large portion of the bad ones were because I forgot the x-sync for the 10D is 1/200th and so I got vignetting but bad for at least the first 50 before I finally figured it out). I was using f/8 and f/11 most of the session.

Before I went to the studio session, I picked out 6 photographers on FredMiranda that I knew had personal studios and who's lighting work I appreciated for one reason or another and I wrote them asking them for some info on studio lighting. I got some good responses but honestly nothing compared to the experience of moving those huge softboxes around and shooting.

Just what little I can offer. I hope others with much more experience can "enlighten" this thread.

Kev

06/15/2004 08:45:00 AM · #4

I would consider just purchasing a one light (flash) setup for now. Something with a good amount of power. Get yourself a stand, an umbrella or softbox and a reflector. Experiment with that setup trying to get the most out of it and learn how to manipulate light. You can also add a slaved flash like the Vivitar 283, which is fairly strong, for things like hair light or lighting up a shadowed corner to add some more versatility.

Marjo

Canon EOS-7D

06/15/2004 09:18:50 AM · #5

You've rec'd some great info, so far. I've been doing shoots at various indoor locations and the lighting is always tricky, imo.
I'm always experimenting. I started using a continuous light (blue bulb) on one stand along with the existing light sources. Sometimes reflect it, sometimes not. The blue bulb seems to even out everything.

06/15/2004 10:24:19 AM · #6

Lighting setups that use a pack, and multiple heads are nice, but are expensive. Heavy too, I have lugged many a Speedotron pack to Hell and back. Good way to build up the muscles. All the same, the advantages in terms of power, flexibility and ease of use cannot be denied. If you are a pro, or can other wise justify spending several grand on lighting, by all means, go ahead.

Monolights (they have all the charging circuitry and flashtube in one unit) are another option, but are as expensive as the pack setups, if not more so.

Another option would be to use multiple Canon flash units (420EX & 550EX 's), controlled either by a 550EX or the STE-2 IR Controller. Yo can set these up on stands and attach umbrellas and/or softboxes to them as well. The stands, brackets and umbrellas/softboxes are relatively cheap. The flash units are still pretty expensive (550EX is about $300 US, I think the 420EX is about $170, but can't be used as a master, only a slave) Obviously, this option is not going to have the OOMPH or the instantaneous recycle time that a pack or monolight system will have. But unless you need to shoot moving subjects in the studio @ f32, or need to shoot at the fastest frame rate you can, this may be OK.

The least expensive strobe option would be a similar setup to the above, only substitute Vivitar 285 flash units (make sure they have the Vari-Power module and NOT the Auto Thrystor module, but you can swap the modules) for the Canon units. You will have to use optical slaves, but with the Vari-power module, you will be able to manually adjust the power of each individual flash. You can also get a power adapter to run the 285's from AC power. ( AFAIK, only the Canon 550EX has this option).
When I shot a lot of film, I used similar setups to shoot easily in places where AC power was not readily accessible, like the middle of a dry lakebed. I could have brought a generator, but they are a PITA, and are expensive, loud, stinky and HEAVY.

None of the options that use flash units have modelling lights, but you should be able to get a good idea of how your lighting will look froma test shot and, if you have one, a flash meter. IMO modelling lights are nice to have, but not a real necessity.

BTW, if you are shooting still subjects and need to stop way down for DOF, but can't get enough light from your strobes, you can simply turn down the ambient lights, open the shutter on B and fire the flash as many times as necessary to get the exposure you need.

As for continuous lights, I really don't care for them at all.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

06/15/2004 10:31:57 AM · #7

There really is no comparison between "continuous lighting" and "strobe lighting" if your subject matter prohibits the use of long shutter speeds. Obviously, any person or animal is going to fall in that category, because they won't be able to "sit still" (nor do they like the heat generated by continuous lighting). If you are primarily working with inanimate objects, and don't mind the heat and longer shutter speeds, continuous lighting can work fine.

To give you an example of how big the difference is, lets assume you have two studio strobes that produce a combined output of 1000 watt-seconds (which is pretty modest; that is only 500 W-s per strobe). Assuming you need to shoot at 1/125 shutter speed, you would need 125,000 watts of continuous lighting to achieve the same amount of light that the two studio strobes would output. (Yes, 125 of those 1000-watt "work lights"!) Pretty much impractical from a safety, heat and power standpoint. (A 1000 watt incandescent light is roughly equivalent to the light that would be produced by an 8 W-s "strobe". For comparison, a decent battery-operated camera-mounted flash can typically achieve 30-35 W-s -- but still a far cry from the 500 W-s in a modest AC-powered strobe.)

For some good introductory reading, check out Low-Budget Umbrella Flash for Dummies.

Although Kevin seems to have been "spoiled", I still think that Alien Bees (or their "big brother", White Lightning) are great bang-for-the-buck monolights (no "pack" required), and that is what I plan on using in my "basement studio". It would be great to go with the "Ferrari" of strobes and get the best, but cost is a big factor for me, and the performance of Paul C. Buff's strobes seem like they will be a good "fit". I've read that all of the accessories they sell are quite good, the only thing folks don't seem to recommend are their softboxes. (The fact that they have the custom "Vagabond" battery power supply for their lights is also pretty enticing, making it possibile to use their strobes in remote locations without a generator.)

Like Spazmo mentioned, I've had (what I perceive to be) decent results using the ST-E2 on-camera to trigger 550EX/420EX's mounted on stands firing into umbrellas. The biggest problem here is the lack of modeling lights. But in terms of portability, cost-effectiveness (especially because it is completley wireless, allows you to vary the lighting ratios remotely and still fully E-TTL), this is a pretty groovy setup. I did my first "senior photo" session in April, and this is an example of the lighting using Canon Speedlite's and umbrellas (comments welcome):

One other thing I'll mention in regards to Spazmo's post: if you add non-Canon flashes into the mix, be aware that you'll need to use a 550EX on-camera in full-manual mode (or some other full-manual flash) to disable E-TTL. This means you'll have to adjust the power output of each flash manually. You won't be able to use the on-board flash or a 420EX as an "optical trigger" because the pre-flashes (used by E-TTL to determine flash power) will prematurely trigger the optical slave units.

Message edited by author 2004-06-15 11:32:55.

crabappl3

06/15/2004 10:42:34 AM · #8

For the 'low-budget' lighting people. Here is a design for some umbrella mounts for the Home-Depot 500w halogen lights.

Umbrella Mounts

I had pretty good luck with this setup prior to purchasing my Interfit 250 Strobes.

Brent_Ward

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM

06/15/2004 10:49:32 AM · #9

I use dynalight packs. Love them, I 've also used norman (wasn't that impressed) and Comets (very impressed!). The Comets had a 12oo watt pack the size of a tissue box.

06/15/2004 11:00:11 AM · #10

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The least expensive strobe option would be a similar setup to the above, only substitute Vivitar 285 flash units (make sure they have the Vari-Power module and NOT the Auto Thrystor module, but you can swap the modules) for the Canon units. You will have to use optical slaves, but with the Vari-power module, you will be able to manually adjust the power of each individual flash. You can also get a power adapter to run the 285's from AC power. ( AFAIK, only the Canon 550EX has this option).
When I shot a lot of film, I used similar setups to shoot easily in places where AC power was not readily accessible, like the middle of a dry lakebed. I could have brought a generator, but they are a PITA, and are expensive, loud, stinky and HEAVY.

If you purchase a Vivitar 285HV flash you don't need to purchase a seperate varipower module as they are already built in to the 285 models. In addition, you can use a high voltage power source with them, instead of just AA batteries, which will give you faster recycling times. Also, if you plan on purchasing one of these flashes (which can be found at B&H Photo for $79, a very good price!) and you plan on using it on camera attached to either your hot shoe or flash connection socket, make sure you use it with a SAFE SYNC cord, as these flashes have higher voltages and can fry your camera's circuitry.

BTW, if you are shooting still subjects and need to stop way down for DOF, but can't get enough light from your strobes, you can simply turn down the ambient lights, open the shutter on B and fire the flash as many times as necessary to get the exposure you need.

Or, you can also increase your ISO and that will also give you more bang for your flash buck, so to speak.

Message edited by author 2004-06-15 11:05:12.

Marjo

Canon EOS-7D

06/15/2004 11:08:44 AM · #11

This lighting conversation is so far over my head it's not even funny!
Thanks for all the good info, though. Glad the thread was started.
My continuous works fine for what I'm doing. Turn it on, take a photo, turn it off. A bumb up from a poloroid! Only one or two portrait shots at a time and print out a 4 by 6 on the spot. (Remember, I only have an F717 and sorry I jumped in.)

06/15/2004 12:15:10 PM · #12

Originally posted by MeThoS:

I use dynalight packs. Love them, I 've also used norman (wasn't that impressed) and Comets (very impressed!). The Comets had a 12oo watt pack the size of a tissue box.

I have used Comet equipment as well, very nice stuff.

06/15/2004 12:21:53 PM · #13

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

If you purchase a Vivitar 285HV flash you don't need to purchase a seperate varipower module as they are already built in to the 285 models. In addition, you can use a high voltage power source with them, instead of just AA batteries, which will give you faster recycling times. Also, if you plan on purchasing one of these flashes (which can be found at B&H Photo for $79, a very good price!) and you plan on using it on camera attached to either your hot shoe or flash connection socket, make sure you use it with a SAFE SYNC cord, as these flashes have higher voltages and can fry your camera's circuitry.

The 285 HV flash units are a bargain new and the ones at B&H do have the vari-power module, but there are so many of these out there used, and many of those don't have the varipower module. You can get used 285's for $30-40, maybe less.

I second the Safe-Sync recommendation, no use for lighting with a fried camera.

06/15/2004 12:29:12 PM · #14

Originally posted by EddyG:

You won't be able to use the on-board flash or a 420EX as an "optical trigger" because the pre-flashes (used by E-TTL to determine flash power) will prematurely trigger the optical slave units.

You can use a 420EX or the onboard flash to trigger other flash units, you just need to make sure that you use a so-called "digital" slave that is capable of being set to ignore the pre-flash.

06/15/2004 12:46:16 PM · #15

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

If you purchase a Vivitar 285HV flash you don't need to purchase a seperate varipower module as they are already built in to the 285 models. In addition, you can use a high voltage power source with them, instead of just AA batteries, which will give you faster recycling times. Also, if you plan on purchasing one of these flashes (which can be found at B&H Photo for $79, a very good price!) and you plan on using it on camera attached to either your hot shoe or flash connection socket, make sure you use it with a SAFE SYNC cord, as these flashes have higher voltages and can fry your camera's circuitry.

The 285 HV flash units are a bargain new and the ones at B&H do have the vari-power module, but there are so many of these out there used, and many of those don't have the varipower module. You can get used 285's for $30-40, maybe less.

I second the Safe-Sync recommendation, no use for lighting with a fried camera.

The safe-sync cord - would that be the SC-3 Sensor Cord?

06/15/2004 12:55:08 PM · #16

And more questions... how can you tell if a flash will fry your camera or not? What info should I be looking for? And what about TTL control on the 300D? The Vivitar isn't going to offer E-TTL so how well will it work?

Thanks!

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

06/15/2004 01:29:44 PM · #17

Originally posted by digistoune:

The safe-sync cord - would that be the SC-3 Sensor Cord?

No, you're looking for something like the Wein Safe-Sync Hot Shoe Model.

Spazmo: True -- if you have special "digital" slaves you could use a 420EX. But the vast majority of optically-triggered lights cannot have their "optical detection" programmed to ignore the E-TTL pre-flashes.

06/15/2004 01:33:11 PM · #18

Originally posted by digistoune:

You can check the trigger voltage, but when in doubt a Safe-Sync is the best bet.

If you want E-TTL, stick with the 420EX or 550EX based options, none of the others have it. If you are content to let the camera control everything, by all means use it, in most cases, it works well enough.

Any flash can light a scene, it's about controlling the light. E-TTL and TTL are just ways to control the light by letting the camera tell the flash how much output is necessary to get the correct exposure. The other flash options just give that control to the photographer.

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

06/15/2004 01:39:52 PM · #19

Originally posted by KevinRiggs:

Yeah, but haven't you explained that this is for photography??? Surely she's not unreasonable, right? What a grand or ten here or there?

Actually, so far I�ve only let her know that I�m looking at lighting equipment, checking out what�s available, what prices are like, etc. Just kind of preparing her for the big push when I finally decide what I want to buy. I start by pointing out the high-dollar items, like, �Gee Honey, check out this Arri T24 light. It costs over $8K dollars! The bulb alone costs over $2K dollars! Wow, I guess I won�t be buying too many of those, eh?� That way, whatever I do decide to buy will sound inexpensive in comparison. :)

Your post, and the links, were very helpful. Thanks, I appreciate it very much.

--Mick

06/15/2004 01:44:43 PM · #20

Ok - I'm TRULY not trying to be a PITA!

This Wein Safe-Sync hot shoe thing... I looked at the pic and I'm wondering where, how, what do you hook it up to?
And what the heck is trigger voltage and how do you check it?

Please explain it like I'm three ;-)

06/15/2004 02:23:57 PM · #21

Originally posted by digistoune:

This Wein Safe-Sync hot shoe thing... I looked at the pic and I'm wondering where, how, what do you hook it up to?
Please explain it like I'm three ;-)

I figured out the voltage issue - still confused about the Wein-Safe thing.

Thanks to ALL of you for helping me figure this out :-)

KevinRiggs

Canon EOS-1Ds

06/15/2004 02:24:24 PM · #22

Originally posted by digistoune:

Please explain it like I'm three ;-)

OK. First things first. Don't play with Daddy's camera.

hehehe

Kev

06/15/2004 02:49:47 PM · #23

Originally posted by digistoune:

you can go to the flash manufacturer's web site and see if they list the trigger voltage, or, you can call up the companies tech support and ask for that information. You also have to know how much your camera accepts, as far as the trigger voltage. I think most digital cameras use 6 volts, so in most cases, you're going to need a safe sync cord or slave sensor, if you want to use the flash off camera, which is a good idea because you can get different angles of lighting of the subject and get the light to differenet areas that it wouldn't be able to reach if attached to the camera's hotshoe.

The Vivitar models 283 and 285HV won't be eTTL metered flashes and so these units work in one of two ways that you set on the flash. First, both of these flashes are automatic thyroister sensored meaning that they use a sensor attached to the front of the flash (or when sensor is removeable, attached to another part of your equipment, such as your camera) and this sensor will receive reflected flashed light from your subject, or wherever it's aimed, and decide, based on other imput you put into the flash, just how much light the subject needs to be correctly exposed and then shut off the flash unit so as not to overexpose. (sorry about the longwindedness.)

You can also use the flash in what's called manual mode, where you have to set both the flash and your camera in manual mode settings to match. There are four settings you have to be concerned about: 1) You set the ISO on the flash the same as you're using on your camera. 2) you set the aperture, based on how much distance you want the flash to cover...the larger the aperture opening, the more flash distance your unit will be able to cover limited by its own power output. 3) You set the distance of the flash to the subject (don't forget the Inverse Square Law), and finally, 4) you can set the power output of the unit...less power needed for little subjects, like bugs and flowers, or macro shots; and more output needed for bigger subjects or more distant subjects.

Message edited by author 2004-06-15 14:52:40.

06/15/2004 02:59:46 PM · #24

Originally posted by micknewton:

Originally posted by KevinRiggs:
Yeah, but haven't you explained that this is for photography??? Surely she's not unreasonable, right? What a grand or ten here or there?

Actually, so far I�ve only let her know that I�m looking at lighting equipment, checking out what�s available, what prices are like, etc. Just kind of preparing her for the big push when I finally decide what I want to buy. I start by pointing out the high-dollar items, like, �Gee Honey, check out this Arri T24 light. It costs over $8K dollars! The bulb alone costs over $2K dollars! Wow, I guess I won�t be buying too many of those, eh?� That way, whatever I do decide to buy will sound inexpensive in comparison. :)

Your post, and the links, were very helpful. Thanks, I appreciate it very much.

--Mick

Have you told her that you are going to use this equipment to photograph her to bring out her innate and unique beauty? Note: this only works if stated with conviction.