Believe What you See, Not what you think,

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM

04/20/2009 09:39:53 PM · #1

To follow up on the the rules after the DQ of Blue Sky, why do voters not believe what they are looking at and vote, and not what they think has been done and vote without asking for a validation giving a lessor score than they would of normally becuase this is the easy way out.My entry opened at 6.5 and held till I retired 11pm at 6.2, when I awoke in the morning and saw that the photo had been scored down to 5.7 and never rose above 5.8 again with 16 good comments although some did put down what they were thinking. Have voters become sinical in the voting process and score lower rather than validate?.
To help many believed this was existing artwork with my hands as a second image.

Message edited by author 2009-04-20 21:43:07.

Lydia

Canon EOS-6D

04/20/2009 09:42:51 PM · #2

I really liked the concept of it.. .but couldn't get past the tenseness of the left thumb. I did not vote since I had entered in that challenge, but I would have given it a 5 or a 6, so the score seems valid to me. Others might totally disagree and I'd like to hear their opinions.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

04/20/2009 09:44:12 PM · #3

It's my experience that early voting is always a little bit high for many photos, before settling to a more 'realistic' level.

I don't think it means people are voting on if they think it's a fake or illegal or anything, just that with more votes comes a leveling out of the average.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/20/2009 10:21:34 PM · #4

No offence my friend... but you are working on mere speculation here. There could be a variety of reasons why the scores. It is a nice image and I gave it a 6.\

Ray

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/20/2009 10:34:45 PM · #5

In my experience the first votes tend to be very high, possibly they are looking over the challenge and grabbing images they like and voting on those early, or they are addled by lack of sleep into voting more kindly than the average. Whatever the cause, most of my submissions start around 7.5 for the first few votes before they start their slide toward mediocracy. Of course the ones that get hammered early tend to rise a bit, so it all balances out.

There is a tendency for some voters not to assume that the image is legal, and that is sad. I had one image jump a point and a half after it was validated, so if you think you might be suspected, get your submission for validation in and explain that you are getting comments about the issue of legality, it will help.

FireBird

04/20/2009 11:48:05 PM · #6

Here is an image that will help you out. At the red arrow, uncheck that box and you won't see your scores during the contest and you won't have an update button to play with. It says comments disappear too, but on my browser I still see comments. I'd much rather see them anyway.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

04/21/2009 12:26:20 AM · #7

I did not low vote it based on the appearance, I have seen appearances deceive before. I feel a little bad now for even suggesting it, but I did acknowledge that I was possibly incorrect in that.

BrianR

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

04/21/2009 12:47:19 AM · #8

Hey everyone don't take offence because I opened this thread, I accept the score, My main concern is the way some photos are called for validation query, and others not, even though comments believe this should happen.
Just reading the feedback with interest.

Yo_Spiff I was going this way befor your comment, don't feel bad all feedback is good.

Message edited by author 2009-04-21 00:47:38.

smardaz

04/21/2009 12:51:58 AM · #9

It is part of the process that a voter can ask that a photo be validated, and in that process the user is told to vote as if it were legal. You are assuming they are taking the low road.
I personally don't have a problem with the process, I don't think all rules violations are accidental and even if they are should still be weeded out so that thos entries that do comply get the highest placing possible.

mchalmers

Nikon D90

04/21/2009 10:43:34 AM · #10

I don't think it's a new phenomenon for voters to vote down images that they deem as illegal. I know that I've been dinged for it in the past.

That being said, it certainly wasn't the commenters that were marking you down because of it.. Look at your commenters' score.

Some voters are going to score you higher for your good execution, others will mark you down because they think it's illegal. Who knows, it might all come out in the wash anyway.

04/21/2009 11:07:18 AM · #11

If they think it is illegal you will be voted down.

04/21/2009 11:09:06 AM · #12

Originally posted by kenskid:

If they think it is illegal you will be voted down.

Some people most likely do this, yes, others won't, but your statement as written isn't accurate.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

04/21/2009 11:12:06 AM · #13

Originally posted by kenskid:

If they think it is illegal you will be voted down.

Disagree. I always vote assuming the processing is legal. If there's something blatantly illegal (text on the photograph when not a special rules case), I will comment to that effect and not vote at all. So don't assume everyone votes down if something has processing that may or may not be legal.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/21/2009 11:56:01 AM · #14

I stand by my statement...If they think it is illegal, you will be voted down...

IMO...if you felt that the shot deserved an 8 (a high score) and you DIDN'T vote because you deemed the photo "blatantly illegal"...then that is an 8 that the photo will NEVER receive.

Why wouldn't you vote your true score on the photo and then just ask for validation?

What if I shot a beach scene through a pane of glass and on the glass was written the words "Sun is Fun". If you assumed that I added the text afterwards...you would deem it "blatantly Illegal" and not vote. Wouldn't it be better to vote your "8" and ask for validation?

Originally posted by Melethia:

Originally posted by kenskid:
If they think it is illegal you will be voted down.

Disagree. I always vote assuming the processing is legal. If there's something blatantly illegal (text on the photograph when not a special rules case), I will comment to that effect and not vote at all. So don't assume everyone votes down if something has processing that may or may not be legal.

Message edited by author 2009-04-21 11:56:57.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/21/2009 01:03:38 PM · #15

Originally posted by kenskid:

I stand by my statement...If they think it is illegal, you will be voted down...

Unless you have polled the membership on this issue (and received honest answers), the only actual evidence you have for this position is knowledge of how you yourself would vote in a similar situation.

Since the rules specify that one is to vote as if the photo is legal in this situation, you are effectively accusing everyone here of breaking the rules. I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/21/2009 01:32:58 PM · #16

Good point on the text, but what I refer to in my example (and I should have been more explicit) are those few that show up that are obviously from new members with copyright statements or some such obviously added via a font in Photoshop. For others with text (and there's currently an excellent example in a challenge) I do assume it's captured, not added.

I do not, however, vote anything DOWN because I assume it's illegal. I have submitted the odd validation request, but voted the shot fairly. I don't doubt that others may differ, but I do take a bit of offense that you seem to insist I will vote them down.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/21/2009 02:08:23 PM · #17

Originally posted by GeneralE:

There is one other avenue of experience. If you have submitted a shot that looks like it might have been done in photoshop, (and watch your score through a spreadsheet like a no life numbers geek) and ask for a validation, you can see a real shift in scoring before and after the submission has been validated.

Before validation 5.5, after validation final score of 6.3

My point is, as a voter assume its legal;
as a submitter, assume people will vote it down and ask for validation quickly if it looks dubious.

04/21/2009 03:18:41 PM · #18

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by kenskid:
I stand by my statement...If they think it is illegal, you will be voted down...

Unless you have polled the membership on this issue (and received honest answers), the only actual evidence you have for this position is knowledge of how you yourself would vote in a similar situation.

Since the rules specify that one is to vote as if the photo is legal in this situation, you are effectively accusing everyone here of breaking the rules. I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation.

04/21/2009 03:21:20 PM · #19

I know you didn't say you voted it down..you said you would simply not vote....That's fine...however, MY OPINION is that you should vote good or bad...and let SC decide if it is legal. You may be holding back a vote from a possible winner.

Originally posted by Melethia:

Message edited by author 2009-04-21 15:24:16.

04/21/2009 03:23:50 PM · #20

Very good example ! The numbers on this ONE do not lie. IT IS MY OPINION (I have to say that now) that your photo was surely destined for a 5 - 5.5 score before the word Validated was added !

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Unless you have polled the membership on this issue (and received honest answers), the only actual evidence you have for this position is knowledge of how you yourself would vote in a similar situation.

There is one other avenue of experience. If you have submitted a shot that looks like it might have been done in photoshop, (and watch your score through a spreadsheet like a no life numbers geek) and ask for a validation, you can see a real shift in scoring before and after the submission has been validated.

Before validation 5.5, after validation final score of 6.3

My point is, as a voter assume its legal;
as a submitter, assume people will vote it down and ask for validation quickly if it looks dubious.

04/21/2009 03:24:57 PM · #21

Originally posted by kenskid:

I know you didn't say you voted it down..you said you would simply not vote....That's fine...however, MY OPINION is that you should vote good or bad...and let SC deside if it is legal. You may be holding back a vote from a possible winner.

Originally posted by Melethia:
Good point on the text, but what I refer to in my example (and I should have been more explicit) are those few that show up that are obviously from new members with copyright statements or some such obviously added via a font in Photoshop. For others with text (and there's currently an excellent example in a challenge) I do assume it's captured, not added.

I do not, however, vote anything DOWN because I assume it's illegal. I have submitted the odd validation request, but voted the shot fairly. I don't doubt that others may differ, but I do take a bit of offense that you seem to insist I will vote them down.

I'm of the opinion that anyone should be allowed to exercise their right to withhold a vote on any image for any reason at any time.

I've probably held back a vote on dozens of potential ribbon winners, for many reasons, and that's part of entering the contest. As much as giving a vote is.

04/21/2009 03:26:51 PM · #22

Originally posted by kenskid:

LOL....give me a break...I didn't say "it is a fact that if think it is illegal, you will be voted down"....I stated an opinion...do I have to add "IMO" every time I make a statement?

I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation....I can dig out THOUSANDS of much harsher comments than my post.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by kenskid:
I stand by my statement...If they think it is illegal, you will be voted down...

Unless you have polled the membership on this issue (and received honest answers), the only actual evidence you have for this position is knowledge of how you yourself would vote in a similar situation.

Since the rules specify that one is to vote as if the photo is legal in this situation, you are effectively accusing everyone here of breaking the rules. I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation.

Actually, it's just common sense to add some kind of qualifier if your statement is an opinion. Without it, the default is that it is a statement of 'fact'.

04/21/2009 03:52:04 PM · #23

Not quite....where have you ever seen a qualifier for opinion statements? It would make every post, every newspaper piece, every radio program and every TV show absolutly unreadable or unwatchable.

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by kenskid:
LOL....give me a break...I didn't say "it is a fact that if think it is illegal, you will be voted down"....I stated an opinion...do I have to add "IMO" every time I make a statement?

I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation....I can dig out THOUSANDS of much harsher comments than my post.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by kenskid:
I stand by my statement...If they think it is illegal, you will be voted down...

Unless you have polled the membership on this issue (and received honest answers), the only actual evidence you have for this position is knowledge of how you yourself would vote in a similar situation.

Since the rules specify that one is to vote as if the photo is legal in this situation, you are effectively accusing everyone here of breaking the rules. I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation.

Actually, it's just common sense to add some kind of qualifier if your statement is an opinion. Without it, the default is that it is a statement of 'fact'.

04/21/2009 03:56:18 PM · #24

Originally posted by kenskid:

Not quite....where have you ever seen a qualifier for opinion statements? It would make every post, every newspaper piece, every radio program and every TV show absolutly unreadable or unwatchable.

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by kenskid:
LOL....give me a break...I didn't say "it is a fact that if think it is illegal, you will be voted down"....I stated an opinion...do I have to add "IMO" every time I make a statement?

I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation....I can dig out THOUSANDS of much harsher comments than my post.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by kenskid:
I stand by my statement...If they think it is illegal, you will be voted down...

Unless you have polled the membership on this issue (and received honest answers), the only actual evidence you have for this position is knowledge of how you yourself would vote in a similar situation.

Since the rules specify that one is to vote as if the photo is legal in this situation, you are effectively accusing everyone here of breaking the rules. I strongly urge you to abandon this line of speculation.

Actually, it's just common sense to add some kind of qualifier if your statement is an opinion. Without it, the default is that it is a statement of 'fact'.

Hardly. "I think..." is about the most popular one out there, and is heard at the beginning of pretty much every statement that isn't relating facts out there.

"I believe..." "I'm of the opinion that..." "Don't you think...?" etc.

I see these all the time.