DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Individual Photograph Discussion >> Wedding Photography - Formals...HELP!
Pages:  
Showing posts 1 - 25 of 34, (reverse)
AuthorThread
12/31/2007 08:44:09 PM · #1
Hey everyone,

Now that I have quite a few weddings under my belt, I am still having an issues with formals in large venue churches. I shot at a local church that had HUGE, tall ceilings, and nowhere to bounce flash. a VERY dark church, even with the house lights on. the amount of light available at any given point was rediculous. as far as for viewing what was going on, it was fine, but on my 70-200 2.8 lens, wide open, at 1600, i was shooting 1/50th the entire time, so flash was of most importance.

I am not familiar with the more advanced features of my Sigma 500 DG Super, so I shoot with it on auto-ETTL mode at all times. i tried bouncing off the ceiling (what available light it gave) but it just sucked. then direct, but of course you have shadows, during the ceremony it was decent, the formals, which is what i'm showing in this picture, i couldn't get anything sharp.

my gear for formals: Canon 17-40 f/4L
Canon 20D
Sigma 500 DG Super Flash unit

here's one shot for example, shot at the following:
f/4.0 at 1/125 a second (this was metering as underexposed, but flashed the model. proper exposure would have been around 1/50)



i'm at a loss. is it my flash unit ? i've seen shots from weddings that were in similar venues, but they were tack sharp and didn't have NEAR the noise mine has. please, anyone with some input feel free to give me some ideas or pointers, for this has me pretty stressed out. i thank you all so much.

here to learn

jon rowe
12/31/2007 08:46:26 PM · #2
Formals are the staged shots? Why not pick up a couple more flashes and get together a small strobist setup to use?
12/31/2007 08:49:17 PM · #3
i'm definitely down for that, just whatever it takes. have any good links? i think you sent me one a while back, i remember right, but my computer crashed and i lost everything :S

i'll look into any posted
12/31/2007 09:16:42 PM · #4
just interested in the way you guys photograph church weddings, cannot you use flash at all inside the church?

weddings here are very relaxed with the clergy eager to assist the photographer to the extent of slowing the exchange of rings down so one cann gey the money shot.

In all churches in my area I can use flash and move any where in the church where I want to be< as long as I dont swing from the chandaliers every thing is sweet . This is all denominations, If you cant use flash inside you must be in the dark ages in more than one way or have unenlightened clergy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12/31/2007 10:05:00 PM · #5
$50. Give me $50 and I'll give you the secret to successful formal lighting in churches.
Alright, but a membership here would be welcome anyway...

I spent all year trying to figure this out so it works in EVERY church EVERY time...it's about 90% reliable now.
There are variations on this, but this particular setup works for me.

13' light stand, 300ws studio strobe, 2x2 foot softbox, pocket wizard to trigger it. Set this behind you in the middle of the aisle (or off to one side a bit do people can pass). Not too far back down the aisle - keep it as close as you can, but it must be behind you. Get it UP in the air (10 feet or so).

What F stop do you want to shoot the group at? I use 5.6. It's plenty for 3 rows of people at 35-60mm focal range. I use an IS lens (canon 17-55) so I don't use a tripod, but it's a good idea to use one if it's a dark church or you don't have IS.
Get out your flash meter, pick ISO 400 or even 800, and set the flash to give you F 5.6 at ISO 400 (if that's your choice) at the position of your subject.
Now reset your meter to read ambient. Set it to ISO 400 and F5.6 and read the shutter speed.

Go to your camera and set it in Manual, F 5.6, ISO 400 and whatever the shutter speed reads. It may be 1/8 second - that's fine, just go with it. (hence the usefulness of a tripod). The flash will freeze the people, the slow shutter will capture the ambient. The one light, up high, means no shadows. (I've tried an umbrella and it gives me shadows. YMMV)

You get things like this:
//www.pbase.com/cpphotography/image/88749833.jpg

//www.pbase.com/cpphotography/image/85401960.jpg

I hate shiny woodwork...
//www.pbase.com/cpphotography/image/89745197.jpg

This is a shot where I was still trying things out. This was with an umbrella. Too flash looking and there are shadows on the people in the second row.
//www.pbase.com/cpphotography/image/85032587.jpg

Message edited by L2 - Changed large images to links.
12/31/2007 10:11:23 PM · #6
Ceremony and flash...I never use it. Darkest church i've had was Nov 24 - it was a 4:30 ceremony so there it was dark outside before it was 1/2 over.

ISO 1600 at 2.8 at 1/15 second! Thank god for IS lenses and drive mode!

Take your backup camera, mount it to a tripod at the back of the church, and use either a timer remote or get some pocket wizards - set one to fire the camera and put the other on your body. You roam about and when you shoot, the second body will too. Two angles, two perspectives, a real safety net, and most likley you have all the gear you need to do it. If not, a $10 ebay remote will take a mini plug from a PW instead of buying some expensive 'drive' cable.
Or the canon RC80T (i think that's their name for it) will do time lapse at an interval you like. I plan to put a camera on a stand behind the priest at most weddings next year! The video guys do it!

Your noise issue is from underexposing and pushing the image. That will give you noise every time. The 20D was fine 2 or 3 years ago, but the 40D will blow it away in focus, speed and even noise. 800 has none. 1600 has practially none, and 3200 can be printed as-is without much issue if you expose properly.
12/31/2007 10:19:11 PM · #7
Originally posted by kiwinick:

just interested in the way you guys photograph church weddings, cannot you use flash at all inside the church?

weddings here are very relaxed with the clergy eager to assist the photographer to the extent of slowing the exchange of rings down so one cann gey the money shot.

In all churches in my area I can use flash and move any where in the church where I want to be< as long as I dont swing from the chandaliers every thing is sweet . This is all denominations, If you cant use flash inside you must be in the dark ages in more than one way or have unenlightened clergy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Depends on the church. Seems quite a few of the photogs have no respect for the rules, so the clergy get nasty and clamp down in the extreme.
No flash is common. Why? Whose 'day' is it? Who is supposed to be the center of attention? The bride! So if you the photog are moving about, flashing, walking up on the altar, peering over the priests shoulder, etc, YOU become the center of attention and distract from the bride and the 'holy ceremony'.

I get 'no flash' most of the time. I have also been told no photos at all (once), and about 1/2 the time have some restriction on where I can or cannot go, and sometimes I am not allowed to move once the ceremony starts until the kiss.
There is one very very very popular church near here where there are only certain places you can photograph at all, and only 3 places you can stand during a ceremony, and with their strict time limits you have maybe 10 minutes for formals after the ceremony. They'll do 8-10 weddings on a saturday in the summer. Yep, in and out and hurry please. There is usually a 2 year wait too.
12/31/2007 10:41:17 PM · #8
Thanksfor the info prof Fate and the slow shutter examples you provide. Well its very interesting n styles in different countries re wedding photography. Here I would be doing 1 church wedding to every 3 outdoor weddings and 80%
of weddings here are now coducted by marraige celebrants, I have basically retired now but still do the odd wedding for friends or past clients. My next (and hopefully last) 3 are all outdoor ones the first at the family farm and the others at various private gardens. Againevery thing is laid back with guests milling around the gardens beer in hand while they await the bride, Its summer here so quite often the reception is a very posh barby but uor weddings are always a delight to photograph with very little hastles. prolly because we are great people
12/31/2007 10:43:59 PM · #9
Sorry Pro Fate can you use 2nd curtain flash, would that not work
01/01/2008 11:36:45 AM · #10
thanks so much everyone, i really appreciate it! :) Prof_Fate: i'll look into both those options, i see what you mean on the noise from the 20d. i'm wanting to buy the 40D, but was wondering if the differences were worth it. so it looks like you say they are :D i need a new body, and strobes, so i'm trying to prioritize and figure out what i need the most now. funds are low, student loans are calling AHHHHH .

i might see about buying one 800watt strobe / large softbox to mess around / learn with and buy more lights as time allows. i really want the 5D, but I honestly 1) can't see spending that much on a body right now, and 2) would lose a lot of length, but i think it would be worth it. who knows! just trying to figure it all out D:

thanks so much everyone:D
01/01/2008 11:37:57 AM · #11
and also, i haven't had a wedding yet where flash was not allowed. i've been able to use flash every time. just this time, the flash only went so far. HUGE church, with nowhere to bounce it.
01/01/2008 11:44:11 AM · #12
Originally posted by jerowe:

i really want the 5D, but I honestly 1) can't see spending that much on a body right now, and 2) would lose a lot of length, but i think it would be worth it. who knows! just trying to figure it all out D:

thanks so much everyone:D


YOU really don't "lose" that much length. The 5D image cropped to match the APS-C sensor will give you about the same image quality anyway. Maybe not *quite* as good, but in the ballpark for sure.

R.
01/01/2008 11:45:37 AM · #13
If you go for the 5D, you'll want to keep the 20D (or 40D if you replace it). The 5D and 20D/40D bodies will compliment each other as well as backup each other.

Use the 5D for your wedding portraits. You complained about losing "length" with the 5D. But all too often, when attempting to do group portraits, the 20D forces you to go ultra-wide or else stand back too far to get the shot. The 5D will solve that problem for you. By being full frame, you'll be able to shoot at a more normal aspect ratio without having to go to the other end of a football field to do it.

The 5D also solves the noise problem for you. And it solves it where it matters.... on the portraits that they are likely to enlarge.

Use the 20D/40D for the candid shots. There you want the zoom range. And there the noise doesn't matter so much because they'll generally stick to smaller images of candids (so the 20D is still usable, but the 40D would be a mighty fine upgrade if you can afford it).

And carrying both cameras during the wedding ... if one of them goes out, the other is still usable as its replacement. ALWAYS carry backups at a wedding. Several times now I've had a body or a flash go out on me at just the wrong moment.


01/01/2008 12:10:46 PM · #14
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

13' light stand, 300ws studio strobe, 2x2 foot softbox, pocket wizard to trigger it. Set this behind you in the middle of the aisle (or off to one side a bit do people can pass). Not too far back down the aisle - keep it as close as you can, but it must be behind you. Get it UP in the air (10 feet or so).


I totally agree with this. While most of the church weddings where i shoot don't allow flash during the ceremony, I am always allowed to use it for formals. For that purpose, I have one Alien Bees 800 light set high on a stand with a brolly box attached. I also take that light into the reception hall and set it off to the side so I can get some interesting shots with off-camera lighting during dances.
01/01/2008 12:16:24 PM · #15
Originally posted by routerguy666:

Formals are the staged shots? Why not pick up a couple more flashes and get together a small strobist setup to use?


That would be my answer... I take two 160 w/s monolights with me for formals. Two 60 and two 45 inch umbrellas. It's just a matter of throwing a slightly heavy bag in the car.
01/01/2008 12:25:09 PM · #16
Jon, I hate to say it, but on this photo, you missed focus. Those candles in the background are awfully sharp. I don't know where your focus points are, but you definitely don't want to be in auto in these situations.



Message edited by author 2008-01-01 12:25:47.
01/01/2008 01:08:18 PM · #17
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

That would be my answer... I take two 160 w/s monolights with me for formals. Two 60 and two 45 inch umbrellas. It's just a matter of throwing a slightly heavy bag in the car.


By the way, I've been using my 60" umbrellas ever since you recommended them. Thanks Leroy!


01/01/2008 01:17:13 PM · #18
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Formals are the staged shots? Why not pick up a couple more flashes and get together a small strobist setup to use?


That would be my answer... I take two 160 w/s monolights with me for formals. Two 60 and two 45 inch umbrellas. It's just a matter of throwing a slightly heavy bag in the car.


do you hope you can plug the lights in somewhere or do you have a battery pack for the lights.
01/01/2008 01:27:44 PM · #19
i see what you mean, and i don't know what caused this...i was shooting in Manual using the center focus point. it happened in every shot, seems like. i'm at a loss. in well lit situations, i dont' have that problem...frustrating. it's probably something so simple, but in the hustle i'm not seeing it

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Jon, I hate to say it, but on this photo, you missed focus. Those candles in the background are awfully sharp. I don't know where your focus points are, but you definitely don't want to be in auto in these situations.

01/01/2008 01:50:54 PM · #20
my lack of knowledge i know centers around working with lighting. in these instances, say where to get a non-flash exposure, where it would be ISO 1600, wide open (in this case, f/4 with my 17-40), and a shutter speed of around 1/40th or so, what would you do?

stay at 1600 and flash at the above shutter speed, (f/4 and 1/40)
lower ISO setting, shutter for handheld (1/125th) and flash it

i'm open to anything. this is the first wedding that i have had out of quite a few that I am not very happy with the outcome of the formals. thanks so much
01/01/2008 02:42:41 PM · #21
Originally posted by jerowe:

my lack of knowledge i know centers around working with lighting. in these instances, say where to get a non-flash exposure, where it would be ISO 1600, wide open (in this case, f/4 with my 17-40), and a shutter speed of around 1/40th or so, what would you do?

stay at 1600 and flash at the above shutter speed, (f/4 and 1/40)
lower ISO setting, shutter for handheld (1/125th) and flash it

i'm open to anything. this is the first wedding that i have had out of quite a few that I am not very happy with the outcome of the formals. thanks so much


I am no wedding photographer, but...

I would suggest somewhere between the two:
-I don't know about the 20D's noise but I would assume you would be best dropping to 800 if not lower if you can, for less noise.
-However, you are going to end up with a pretty underexposed background if you drop the ISO and have a shorter shutter (in your example almost 3 stops underexposed). If that's what you want then great, but flash mixed in with ambient results in nicer looking images (imho).

Remember, the flash is very short (in time) and will do the freezing of the subject for you, so you shouldn't need to worry too much about reducing your shutter for handholding, if the flash is the main light on the subject.

Therefore, if your subject is being lit with the flash and the background is mostly ambient you have 4 variables affecting your image:
-Shutter speed: affects brightness of background only
-Aperture: affects subject and background equally
-ISO: affects subject and background equally
-Flash power: affects subject only.

You can then adjust these 3 variables to get the desired balance between subject and background lighting.

As an example, based on your example. I would perhaps:
-Drop the ISO to 800, this will darken the scene by 1 stop, which should give a nice darker, but illuminated background for your subject to 'pop' off.
-Keep aperture at f/4 and shutter at 1/40. This will keep the background nicely oof and not too dark
-Flash the subject with the required power for f/4 at ISO 800 (either manually or automatically depending how you like it).

That may be really rambly, so ask if something doesn't make sense :)
01/01/2008 02:48:24 PM · #22
Originally posted by jerowe:

thanks so much everyone, i really appreciate it! :) Prof_Fate: i'll look into both those options, i see what you mean on the noise from the 20d. i'm wanting to buy the 40D, but was wondering if the differences were worth it. so it looks like you say they are :D i need a new body, and strobes, so i'm trying to prioritize and figure out what i need the most now. funds are low, student loans are calling AHHHHH .

i might see about buying one 800watt strobe / large softbox to mess around / learn with and buy more lights as time allows. i really want the 5D, but I honestly 1) can't see spending that much on a body right now, and 2) would lose a lot of length, but i think it would be worth it. who knows! just trying to figure it all out D:

thanks so much everyone:D


paterson interfit stellar strobes from B&H. A 2 light kit wiht the 300ws units runs about $500 - stands, carry bag and all. good units, great price. a taller/heavier stand would be advisable for weddings than what comes with the kit. one kit has a 2x2 softbox.

5D is nice, but old tech. for $1000 less you can get a 40D and get 98% of the image quality with better focus, more FPS, faster operation, self cleaning, LiveView and more (like weatherproofing)

As I've stated elsewhere, better gear gets better images, and better images gets you more money because you can go after a higher paying, more knowledgable clientele. and it's always best at any level to exceed their expectations.
01/01/2008 02:49:55 PM · #23
Originally posted by latentflip:

[quote=jerowe]
-Flash the subject with the required power for f/4 at ISO 800 (either manually or automatically depending how you like it).



how does one determine the power needed? this is where i am completely clueless :(
01/01/2008 02:55:03 PM · #24
Originally posted by kiwinick:

Sorry Pro Fate can you use 2nd curtain flash, would that not work

You need to capture the ambient light to keep the room from going dark. it also eliminates 90% of the shadows. second curtain might very well be better, but I don't bother. I've tried second curtain sync with my (non-canon) speedlights (on my 20 and 30D) and it doesn't seem to work. Could be those strobes (sigma 500 and metz 54).

these were shot strobist style with the 580 on the camera and the metz on manual fired via a pocketwizard. Again, no second curtain sync and they seem OK to me (even the ones with more BG motion).

//www.pbase.com/cpphotography/image/89745202.jpg

//www.pbase.com/cpphotography/image/89745198.jpg

Message edited by L2 - Changed large images to links.
01/01/2008 03:02:19 PM · #25
Originally posted by jerowe:

i see what you mean, and i don't know what caused this...i was shooting in Manual using the center focus point. it happened in every shot, seems like. i'm at a loss. in well lit situations, i dont' have that problem...frustrating. it's probably something so simple, but in the hustle i'm not seeing it

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Jon, I hate to say it, but on this photo, you missed focus. Those candles in the background are awfully sharp. I don't know where your focus points are, but you definitely don't want to be in auto in these situations.



what focus mode/method are you using?
I got 100% better focus 'lock' when I set up cfn 4 to move the focus from teh shutter button to the * button on the back. Hit the * to focus, then shutter to expose the image. Seems extrememly natural, even when I had my camera to a newbie ( or a groom) to take a pic, they seem to 'get it' right away.
I also use the joystick to choose my focus point. On the 20D only the center is a cross point, and it's only extra sensitive with a 2.8 or faster lens attached to the camera. One great benefit of the 40d is ALL the points are cross and work with better with slower lenses. (yet another reason that gear matters). With a 2.8 lens focus is faster and more accurate (the 'acceptable zone of focus' is reduced by 2/3!)
I also have tbe 'beep' turned on so that when the camera thinks it has focus it beeps at me - no focus lock, no beep. Just an extra layer of protection to keep from missing focus lock.
Pages:  
Current Server Time: 03/28/2024 08:35:46 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Prints! - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2024 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 03/28/2024 08:35:46 PM EDT.