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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Cropping your Photo
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05/01/2002 10:00:32 AM · #1
As I browse these challenges, and based on an earlier question I asked here, I believe that cropping is an interesting problem for some photographers on this site.

Comments:

I am fortunate enough to have a 5 megapixel camera. When I take a photo for a challenge here, I don't try to completely frame and compose the photo with the camera. I leave myself some room around the edges (in most cases) so that I can crop and frame the finished shot with software assistance. Higher resolution cameras help with this quite a bit. Since we are working with 640x480 or 640x427 images on this site, you must have a camera capable of higher resolution than 640x480 to take advantage of good cropping.

Some of the photos I have seen in these challenges are quite nice with the exception of some minor framing issues that could possibly be resolved by cropping.

Cropping correctly is not always easy. Since the requirements for these challenges are that the photos must be exactly 640x480 or 640x427 in size (1.33:1 or 1.5:1), you must be able to crop to exactly these specific sizes or ratios.

What I have discovered is that most of the lower end image editing tools do not easily allow this capability. Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Photoshop Elements both seem to be the best. They each have a 'constrained aspect ratio' marquee select function that makes this process rather easy. Corel PhotoPaint and a program called "The Gimp" (freeware) have the capability of specifying a specifie pixel size for the marquee. I have not played with "The Gimp" yet, but in Corel PhotoPaint, when you specify the pixel size for the marquee, you can then position the marquee in your photo to create your desired crop. In order to use this feature in Corel easily, you may need to create a chart of the various pixel dimensions of a 1.5:1 and a 1.33:1 ratio.

I have played with quite a few programs that do NOT offer either of these methods for selecting your marquee at a specific size. Since this is not easy to do without high end software, I ask myself if it would be worth while to promote a change request to the admins of this site requesting a modification to the rules for submission.

I, personally, have found that the standard rectangular photo shape is not always supportive of the subject. I quite often produce square images for prints of some of my own work.

Would anyone reading this post be supportive of being able to submit a photo of any shape that did not exceed 640 pixels on a horizontal or vertical side (also remaining within the 150k file size requirement) ??

This method would allow the use of any particular cropping and then resampling to 640 pixels on the long side of the photo.

I'm not actually making this change request... I'm just looking for some feedback to see if any others like the idea....


05/01/2002 10:47:31 AM · #2
I've found that a square frame is often more interesting for certain types of shot and have used that for quite a lot of things. I think this was asked for before to just have a '640 long side' and under 150k restriction and I'm not sure why it was rejected, other than the concern that we might get lots of 640 pixel x 2 pixel type silly entries. I don't really think that would happen.

Btw, another cheap option to get cropping as you describe is to use
Photoshop Limited Edition which also has the constrained ratio features
and comes free with a lot of cameras. I had a look and I have 5 copies of this program, from various printers, scanners and cameras that I've bought.
05/01/2002 11:03:23 AM · #3
I wonder if PhotoShop LE can be purchased... I will have to take a look around for that. I'm going to purchase Elements today I think....


05/01/2002 12:49:35 PM · #4
I have the limited edition photoshp that came with my Canon G2 and I must say it is light years ahead of paintshop pro..any version..for a photographer.

I use to use photoshop and pagemaker years (I am talking YEARS ) ago when I did some hobby work for a magazine. I never bothered to spend the bucks for it myself as my carreer took me further and further from the graphic arts so I satisfied my graphis needs for some light editing in paint shop pro.

Well, all I can say is if this limited edition is any indication of what is available in Photoshop today ther is nothing on the market that can compare.

My question. Is photoshop elements a step up from my limited edition photshop...or is it a simple variation or add-on to the photshop stuff?

The price is very reasonable and I must say if it is the same as what I have with the limited edition but more features...everyone here should run out and buy it right now!!!
05/01/2002 01:16:51 PM · #5
I also agree. Square shapes are sometimes very applicable to the photo. Or just some other cropping that isn't quite the perfect 640x480. I would vote for changing the restriction to the longest side being 640 and the max file size being 150k. If there are concerns of getting entries that are 640x2, set a minimum height too, say, at 320. That gives enough room for people to size the pictures the way they want w/out allowing ridiculous sizing.

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/1/2002 1:17:26 PM.
05/01/2002 01:22:11 PM · #6
Photoshop Elements is $89 and has a $30 rebate if you own other versions of photoshop products (including LE) or competitive products.

I don't have LE so I can't compare it to Elements. Adobe has a free 30 trial of Elements available for download on their website... I suggest giving it a try. I think it's the perfect tool for the digital photographer... www.adobe.com


05/01/2002 01:27:21 PM · #7
Originally posted by gr8photos:
I also agree. Square shapes are sometimes very applicable to the photo. Or just some other cropping that isn't quite the perfect 640x480. I would vote for changing the restriction to the longest side being 640 and the max file size being 150k. If there are concerns of getting entries that are 640x2, set a minimum height too, say, at 320. That gives enough room for people to size the pictures the way they want w/out allowing ridiculous sizing

Another option would be to keep the file sizes, but allow the image to be cropped and bordered with black, white, or 30% gray.
BTW: Why aren't the backgrounds of the voting pages aet to gray instead of white?
05/01/2002 01:32:48 PM · #8
I agree about changing the cropping dimensions.

Some panorama shots are best at a wider perspective, some shots are ..as said ..best at square...And..it would make it easier on folks who have real simple editing software to get a good crop.
05/01/2002 01:33:38 PM · #9
I don't think borders contribute to the quality of photos for this site...
05/01/2002 01:38:55 PM · #10
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Photoshop Elements is $89 and has a $30 rebate if you own other versions of photoshop products (including LE) or competitive products.

I don't have LE so I can't compare it to Elements. Adobe has a free 30 trial of Elements available for download on their website... I suggest giving it a try. I think it's the perfect tool for the digital photographer... www.adobe.com


Elements is a different product to Photoshop and more geared towards a 'simpler' market (ie home use, rather than professional) It has things like 'automatic red eye removal' and online printing and stuff more tuned towards the home digital photographer.

(side note : a good link on why auto-red eye removal tools aren't as good as Photoshop, which doesn't even have a removal tool here

Photoshop LE is just a cut down version of Photoshop, with some of the more complex/ powerful features disabled (like CMYK separations, or multiple levels of undo, or channel mixers, or various colour modes like LAB)

I personally like the control that you get having Photoshop, but it certainly wasn't cheap.


* This message has been edited by the author on 5/1/2002 2:03:23 PM.
05/01/2002 01:45:23 PM · #11
So Gordon..You must have the limited version and the regualr version of Photoshop.

You must think the full version of photoshop offers enought extras to spend the bucks. Why? Are you involved in imaging as a profession, found the LE version to limiting or just a gearhead ;-)

It's just I am torturing myself over buying the full photoshop after being so impressed with my limited version
05/01/2002 01:47:22 PM · #12
I don't need all the capabilities of the full version of photoshop for what I'm doing here... Elements is going to work just fine...
05/01/2002 02:10:12 PM · #13
Originally posted by hokie:
So Gordon..You must have the limited version and the regualr version of Photoshop.

You must think the full version of photoshop offers enought extras to spend the bucks. Why? Are you involved in imaging as a profession, found the LE version to limiting or just a gearhead ;-)



I think that probably photoshop elements would do everything I need, but I'm used photoshop for years so am happy with it and got it at educational price, so it isn't terribly costly.

I do do image processing type stuff for a living, so I'm a bit of a gearhead in that respect, though I don't use Photoshop at work (mainly I design graphics hardware and software). I actually have Photoshop LE installed here at work because I use a graphics tablet which came with a copy.

The main things I use in the full version that aren't in the cut-down version are:

o LAB colour mode occasionally for sharpening just the L channel
o Channel mixer for any black and white stuff that I do
o Duotone colour mode for converting to interesting B&W for printing
o Actions/ macros for repetition
o Save for web, which nicely automates getting the best file size
o Measure tool, to rotate horizons to be perfectly flat or vertical elements to be vertical
o Multiple undo/ non-linear undo / history brush

Not sure if Photoshop Elements has these features, but it certainly seemed more powerful than Photoshop LE. It certainly looked interesting when I downloaded the trial version. Didn't bother playing much though as the full version has the features I want & need.

Does elements support plug-ins ? I use Kai Power Tools Equaliser for sharpening as it has more control in a lot of cases.





* This message has been edited by the author on 5/1/2002 2:10:58 PM.
05/01/2002 03:11:32 PM · #14
Hey I think changing the limit on files sizes as long as the long edge does not exceed 640 and the file size is under 150kb is great. If anyone feels that this allows too much freedom and hurts the "challenge" of dpchallenge" then at least let someone post 480x480 images as another possible dimension. There is one specific picture I can think of in last weeks challenge that would have been helped by a square picture.

As for the 'constrained aspect ratio', have you tried out Ulead PhotoImpact? Its a wonderful sub-photoshop program that I find easier to use. It also has this 'constrained aspect ratio'.
05/01/2002 05:56:52 PM · #15
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Some of the photos I have seen in these challenges are quite nice with the exception of some minor framing issues that could possibly be resolved by cropping.

Cropping correctly is not always easy. Since the requirements for these challenges are that the photos must be exactly 640x480 or 640x427 in size (1.33:1 or 1.5:1), you must be able to crop to exactly these specific sizes or ratios.


Would anyone reading this post be supportive of being able to submit a photo of any shape that did not exceed 640 pixels on a horizontal or vertical side (also remaining within the 150k file size requirement) ??

This method would allow the use of any particular cropping and then resampling to 640 pixels on the long side of the photo.




I would be in favor of this change. My camera is limited to a maximum size of 640x480. If I have to do any cropping at all, I have to resize the photo to the approved size and then it gets distorted. I have been working on the framing as I take the photo and have gotten better at that.

In the ground up challenge I was able to crop ever so slightly an "undesirable element" and was able to resize to the 640x427 size. That worked for this challenge.

I am not complaining by any means, and if I have to continue to learn how to compose my shot just perfectly, then I will do so and one of these days I will get a photo out of my camera that needs no cropping at all!

Linda

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/1/2002 5:58:05 PM.
05/01/2002 08:35:51 PM · #16
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Photoshop Elements is $89 and has a $30 rebate if you own other versions of photoshop products (including LE) or competitive products.


//www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005AATF/ref%3Dnosim/fatwalletcom/104-1926914-3651157

29.99 from amazon after rebates (30 in box rebate for upgrade (prob involves competitive, sounds like the one mentioned above) and 40 mail in rebate from amazon themselves.)

Expires May 26th, 2002.
05/01/2002 09:01:06 PM · #17
Originally posted by mykoleary:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Photoshop Elements is $89 and has a $30 rebate if you own other versions of photoshop products (including LE) or competitive products.



I think the rebate only applies if you have a PURCHASED product not one that came with a pc or other device as a package.




Expires May 26th, 2002.[/i]

05/01/2002 09:01:36 PM · #18
Don't do a RESIZE... If you have to enlarge an image, use resample. Resample actually changes the resolution. I don't recommend enlarging by either method, but resample works better than resize...


Originally posted by ohsmom:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Some of the photos I have seen in these challenges are quite nice with the exception of some minor framing issues that could possibly be resolved by cropping.

Cropping correctly is not always easy. Since the requirements for these challenges are that the photos must be exactly 640x480 or 640x427 in size (1.33:1 or 1.5:1), you must be able to crop to exactly these specific sizes or ratios.


Would anyone reading this post be supportive of being able to submit a photo of any shape that did not exceed 640 pixels on a horizontal or vertical side (also remaining within the 150k file size requirement) ??

This method would allow the use of any particular cropping and then resampling to 640 pixels on the long side of the photo.




I would be in favor of this change. My camera is limited to a maximum size of 640x480. If I have to do any cropping at all, I have to resize the photo to the approved size and then it gets distorted. I have been working on the framing as I take the photo and have gotten better at that.

In the ground up challenge I was able to crop ever so slightly an "undesirable element" and was able to resize to the 640x427 size. That worked for this challenge.

I am not complaining by any means, and if I have to continue to learn how to compose my shot just perfectly, then I will do so and one of these days I will get a photo out of my camera that needs no cropping at all!

Lind[/i]


05/01/2002 09:33:41 PM · #19
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Don't do a RESIZE... If you have to enlarge an image, use resample. Resample actually changes the resolution. I don't recommend enlarging by either method, but resample works better than resize...


Thanks for that tip! I will try it!

Linda

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/1/2002 9:38:49 PM.
05/01/2002 09:44:50 PM · #20
Originally posted by GordonMcGregor:
The main things I use in the full version that aren't in the cut-down version are:

o LAB colour mode occasionally for sharpening just the L channel
o Channel mixer for any black and white stuff that I do
o Duotone colour mode for converting to interesting B&W for printing
o Actions/ macros for repetition
o Save for web, which nicely automates getting the best file size
o Measure tool, to rotate horizons to be perfectly flat or vertical elements to be vertical
o Multiple undo/ non-linear undo / history brush

Not sure if Photoshop Elements has these features, but it certainly seemed more powerful than Photoshop LE. It certainly looked interesting when I downloaded the trial version. Didn't bother playing much though as the full version has the features I want & need.

Does elements support plug-ins ? I use Kai Power Tools Equaliser for sharpening as it has more control in a lot of cases.


Elements has Save For Web and Multiple Undo and supports plug-ins, but I don't think it has anything else on the list. I would spring for the full version of Photoshop if I won the lottery, but I think most of what an amateur photographer wants is in Elements, thanks to them having a professional photographer advising them on the feature set.
05/01/2002 11:13:55 PM · #21
Originally posted by David Ey:
I think the rebate only applies if you have a PURCHASED product not one that came with a pc or other device as a package.


If I recall the rebate info correctly when I first read it while looking at buying it, it just said you had to own a licensed copy of PS or a competitior, it said nothing about having had to bought it.

If you're worried, use this one instead, it expires later. Can be doubled up with the 40 amazon one as well.

$30 rebate offer

Adobe Photoshop Elements must be purchased between February 1, 2002, and July 31, 2002, and a digital camera must be purchased between December 1, 2001, and July 31, 2002.
05/19/2002 09:14:40 PM · #22
I have a question concerning resizing. If I don't plan to crop my photo, which I rarely do, is it better to shoot my picture at 640x480 or at my camera's highest resolution and resize it from there? I used paintshop pro 6 to resize my entry for the games challenge, and am not all that pleased with the result.
05/19/2002 09:17:33 PM · #23
I think it's always better to use your camera's highest resolution... I would use that and then resample down to the correct size...

05/19/2002 10:23:21 PM · #24
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think it's always better to use your camera's highest resolution... I would use that and then resample down to the correct size...



Ditto, espcially since you may want to re-crop it for some other purpose (like a print) later.

* This message has been edited by the author on 5/19/2002 11:59:59 PM.
05/19/2002 11:54:17 PM · #25
One more vote for 640 on the long side and 150kb. Weird croppers do so at their own peril.
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