Ones - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6G

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

04/08/2002 11:38:40 AM · #4

Originally posted by conceptgraphics:
I've been going through the results and noticing that several high scoring photos received 'ones'. This would seem to indicate a 'sway vote'. Is anyone else in agreement? Tom Lewis received (2) ones which I think is a crock. Completely undeserved, Tom.

Thanks, I am just surprised more people didn�t give it a one ; )

Joking aside, I guess a few people may try giving photos ones to sway the votes but I think there are enough honest people voting to level this out, I cant see it having a big affect on the outcome. Besides I cant really see how you could stop it.

tlalonde

Nikon D3200

04/08/2002 11:42:53 AM · #5

I agree with the idea of ones requiring a comment. My point was that even though art is subjective, a photo that gets (8) tens does not deserve a one onless it is perceived as being completely out of specs for the challenge (i.e. a robot interface in a Nature competition.)

magnetic9999

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

04/09/2002 09:00:19 AM · #6

yeah. all the ones are weird. i can't really see giving someone a one. let alone a pic that is that really good. I think there must just be a lot of either a) negative cretins out there (distinct possibility!), or b) people that don't understand that 5 is average, not 1.

jsgf

Sony DSC-F505V

04/09/2002 02:15:47 PM · #7

I have two thoughts about the ones: They're either from people who vote on instant impression, and they just didn't like something about the picture, or they're people who just like voting in a contrarian way, and vote 1 for the hell of it.

BTW, I wonder does the site recognize any of your votes if you don't vote on every picture? If it does, then it effectively means you voted 0 on any pictures you didn't vote on (or does it compute a per-picture average rather than an overall average?)

* This message has been edited by the author on 4/9/2002 2:16:09 PM.

Reuben

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

04/09/2002 02:34:55 PM · #8

I personally only need about 6 different grades to vote on photos. I can accurately 'group' the photos based on my preference with scores 5-10. Only a few score lower than 5 from me.

The fact that I mainly use only 6 of the 10 scores tells me that other people may be able to do the same, or even use fewer. Of course, other people may group their scores more evenly across the board than I do, or they could bunch their scores at the other end, using mainly 1-5 or 1-6.

In terms of the math, there's no real reason not to give a bunch of 1s. Everyone's voting scale is different, and the only advantage to bunching your scores above 5 rather than below or at 5 is that it doesn't hurt peoples' feelings.

I still think it would be great if DPC would translate all votes to make 5 the average vote for each voter. It's really an easy thing to do, and it makes the feedback we get from reading what types of votes we got so much more informative and worthwhile.

* This message has been edited by the author on 4/9/2002 2:35:40 PM.

shortredneck

Olympus C-3000Z

04/09/2002 03:00:25 PM · #9

If I think a photo should be disqualified then I think it deserves a 1. I normally recommend the disqualification and give the 1 vote in case it doesn't get disqualified. I feel that a picture that doesn't portray the subject of the challenge at all does not belong in the competition.

I do disagree with giving a 1 just because you don't like the picture. If someone meets the criteria I think they should get better than a one. This person more than likely knows the submission is below par and doesn't deserve to be totally beat down by our votes.

Reuben

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

04/09/2002 03:59:27 PM · #10

To play devil's advocate, I can just as easily disagree with giving a 10 just because you do like a picture.

The only real meaning that the numbers have it relative to your other votes in the same challenge. Any other meaning you assign to them is your own, and thus is subjective and you cannot project it onto others (but you can try!).

However, you are totally justified in trying to project the majority's subjective feelings of meaning for the numbers into your own votes, because that increases the value of the feedback we get when we look at the votes we get for our pictures.

It would be different if the rules had any guidelines as to how you should vote. If the rules said "give a 1 only if the photo does not fit the challenge well" then it would be against the rules (though not terribly enforceable) to vote 1 otherwise.

In fact the only mention in the rules about how you should vote (and I don't think it should be there anyway) says 10 is for a perfect photograph, which tells me it's actually against the rules to give a 10 for a picture just because you like it, it's supposed to be only for perfect photographs.

But all of this would be meaningless if only they did the vote translation (Lang, drew -- sorry guys, but I'm going to mention this every time the subject comes up).

Originally posted by shortredneck:
I do disagree with giving a 1 just because you don't like the picture.

* This message has been edited by the author on 4/9/2002 4:00:12 PM.

04/09/2002 04:32:50 PM · #11

Originally posted by Reuben:
n fact the only mention in the rules about how you should vote (and I don't think it should be there anyway) says 10 is for a perfect photograph, which tells me it's actually against the rules to give a 10 for a picture just because you like it, it's supposed to be only for perfect photographs.

This argument could go on forever! I agree with Rueben about the vote translation because this is so subjective. The comment about the 10's though, is a hard one to enforce, because who can really say what a perfect photograph is? In technical perfection, I suppose a photograph can rank a 10, but what if you dislike the subject? Or rather, if it doesn't appeal to you personally? I'm sure this is how a lot of people are voting. Look at Gordon's winning architechture. I loved this and gave it a 10, so was happy to see it win. Imagine my surprise when I noticed that several people gave it a 4! Talk about subjective...
But about the vote translation...I try to give every picture an unbiased vote, whether I would "hang it on my wall" or not, and I can't remember ever giving a one, I think the lowest is a three, and then it was hard to go that low because you have to really dislike a picture and truly not find any of the artist's intent to go that low, I think. But to those who consistantly vote low, is there a way to average this? It would be interesting to know what is in their heads, or maybe it is just as simple as not personally caring for the subject? I dunno.

* This message has been edited by the author on 4/9/2002 4:54:35 PM.

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

04/09/2002 04:36:48 PM · #12

ooops--why did the whole post come up in italics?

drewmedia

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

04/09/2002 04:40:23 PM · #13

Originally posted by amitchell:
ooops--why did the whole post come up in italics?

The '/i' tag in brackets ends your italics. Move that above the part you don't want in italics.

Drew

04/09/2002 04:42:48 PM · #14

Originally posted by drewmedia:
Originally posted by amitchell:
[i]ooops--why did the whole post come up in italics?

The '/i' tag in brackets ends your italics. Move that above the part you don't want in italics.

Drew[/i]

oh, duh! Thanks Drew--always our savior!

clay

Kodak DC215

04/09/2002 07:53:24 PM · #15

lets also murder all of the people who like pulp in their orange juice too. whats with people who feel they have a right to opinion

magnetic9999

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

04/09/2002 08:06:22 PM · #16

clutch rocks

i met the guy who recorded clutch and owns the studio where they recorded at a party at an art gallery year before last, before I had ever heard the band. nice guy, a little on the shy side.

04/09/2002 08:21:42 PM · #17

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

[i]
clutch rocks

i met the guy who recorded clutch and owns the studio where they recorded at a party at an art gallery year before last, before I had ever heard the band. nice guy, a little on the shy side.
[/i]

cool- i wonder which album he recorded? I met clutch at an interview i did for the magazine i worked for a few years ago and they are just really cool. A group of us go see them whenever they come around just because we have such a blast at the show. I guess I have probably seen them about 10 times now, a little much I guess, but at this point it is just fun going to see a band where you know ALL the songs!

irae

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 I

04/09/2002 10:29:25 PM · #18

I was doing my best to stay out of this one, but here goes. Seeing votes of 1 on photos that otherwise score well is odd, but consistent with the vast range of visual literacy displayed on this site. Just what does that 1 - 10 scale mean, anyway? Some might feel that the best (objectively, subjectively, whatever...) photograph on the voting page should get a 10, and the worst a 1. Some may rate the photography here based on all the photographs they've ever seen. Someone who's studied photography and been exposed to lots of great work is going to score the photos here lower than someone who's only seen the photographs (critically) on these pages. An experienced photographer who understands the technical aspects of creating an image may give a higher score based on technical merits, while a less experienced photographer might downgrade for something like the use of a limited depth of field, which he doesn't understand and feels is somehow wrong. I don't know if kludging the votes around a 5 average is going to tell us any more than letting them fall where they do now. Might be interesting, though, to show each voter's or photographer's standard deviation from the average score on their profile page - kind of like the voting prize over at DPC. Maybe we could even recognize the voter or photog who came closest to picking all the winners. Some participant voter critique sites require a comment for scores which deviate substantially from the average. Maybe a good idea, but I don't know if it would be worth the trouble. If someone's determined to vote high or low, they can probably come up with a reason to do so. But enough of my yakkin'.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

04/15/2002 08:45:27 AM · #19

Originally posted by irae:
I was doing my best to stay out of this one, but here goes. Seeing votes of 1 on photos that otherwise score well is odd, but consistent with the vast range of visual literacy displayed on this site.

I think that is very true - particularly if you look at the results of some of the challenges and the split between photographer's votes vs voters.

The curves challenge is an interesting version of this, where the 'eggs' picture (eleven) was voted first by photographers but didn't rate in the top 3 for voters. I think maybe because it displays more technical mastery than a really superficially arresting image. Its the sort of thing you have to look at for a while to appreciate the subtlety in it.

Doesn't mean that the people who didn't rate eleven highly are 'wrong' as such. Visual language is something you have to learn though. I think the more I learn the more critical I am of my own attempts. Things that months ago I would have been thrilled about now get thrown away as failures - I wonder if it ever gets crippling ? :)

For my curves entry I got some really low votes and some really high votes, it would be interesting to know why the person who rated it as a '1' did so. Not because they are wrong, just to understand why they thought it was very bad. In some ways the bad comments are more interesting/telling if they do actually have good motivation.

tommccabe

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

04/15/2002 08:56:01 AM · #20

i think what disturbs me more isn't the ones on an otherwise high ranking photo, but it is some of the "votes cast" averages in the photographer profiles. in profiles, i've seen someone who has voted on over 300 photographs and their average vote is below a two! do that many photos deserve a one? i don't think so.

but obviously, this is all subjective and comes down to individual photographer's preference. it just seems that some people are way too harsh with their votes*.

(* on the same scale, i've seen some disturbingly high vote averages, which i think is equally as odd as the low vote averages.)

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

04/15/2002 09:02:13 AM · #21

Probably the people with really low averages are suffering from angry young man syndrome, or an over inflated sense of their own abilities...

Would be fun to see graphs of vote spread by age, gender, cross-correlated with scores for their own submissions, photographer vs voters etc.

The fun you could have with access to the data...

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

04/15/2002 09:14:11 AM · #22

I don't think we should spend so much time analyzing the votes. I think we should spend more time having fun and hoping for better votes on the next challenge :)

irae