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05/15/2005 03:10:02 PM · #1 |
Ok. At the risk of being blasted here goes.
I like my camera. I've had it for just over 2 weeks now but I'm finding that I don't love it yet.
Will I grow into it?
I do like the flexibility and the ability to customize. I had 2 film SLRs (both Canon EOS Rebels) and loved them. I find that I don't like my digital pix from the 20D as much as my 5050z (Olympus). I realize that the pix turn out soft straight from the camera but it seems like an extra step to have to mess with them in Photoshop (I actually use Elements right now as I am not ready to take on more learning at this point).
I know I'm sort of all over with this. What are your recommendations for my present learning curve? |
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05/15/2005 03:17:17 PM · #2 |
Part of the choice to go with cameras such as the 20D is the very fact that you'll need to input more effort into post-processing than with consumer point and shoots.
Those have on-camera software that edits the captured information to produce a "better" image straight from the camera because owners often want to print with no or little editing.
Cameras such as 20Ds are useful when the photographer wants to retain control over ALL and ANY processing applied to the captured data.
Recommendations would depend on what your primary purpose is for taking pictures and what you want to do with them once taken?
There's no one single answer on how you should do things...
But the 20D is definitely a camera whose images benefit from post-processing.
I'm not sure what to recommend re the learning curve but I've learnt lots and still have lots to learn from forums like this, from internet information sites and from books recommended here and elsewhere.
If you want to do it there really isn't any shortcut unless you have a lot of money to burn and can perhaps book personal training sessions with an expert...
What was your main reason for upgrading to the 20D? Which of its features were you after?
Message edited by author 2005-05-15 15:19:38.
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05/15/2005 03:17:43 PM · #3 |
Try playing with the parameters - you can set it to increased saturation/sharpening, perhaps you'll then find that you're happy with many/most of them straight out of camera.
Also, concentrate on all the really wonderful features (like the SPEED !!), and soon the parts you don't like about won't feel anywhere near as important. |
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05/15/2005 03:27:42 PM · #4 |
What did I expect/want?
Well. I do want to customize and do a bit of post image processing. Very much so. But the pix turn out softer than I expect and I guess I'm still in the mindframe of: Is it cheating to mess with the digital darkroom?
Beetle, thank for suggesting the messing with parameters. I think I may give that a spin.
I've been experimenting a lot with the camera. I'll admit I am mostly happy. I've even pulled out my old 75-300mm lens and have been playing. It is ever so much easier to experiment with a digital camera. |
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05/15/2005 03:30:12 PM · #5 |
There's a lot to learn on the 20d...you'll get used to it I think. When I first got my 300d from my s5100, I was overwhelmed a bit...but the ability to control everything at the flick of the finger means the ability to quickly change your settings when conditions change or what you want to get out of the picture changes.
I think you'll grow into it.
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05/15/2005 03:36:19 PM · #6 |
Marmalade...
I understand why you might worry about whether post-processing counts as cheating. I have two points to make to you:
Firstly, why would it be any different to use a camera that does the sharpening for you and to take the same picture on a camera that doesn't do it for you and do the exact same thing yourself afterwards?
Secondly, I think people are often unaware of how much post-processing can be applied to what they think of as "pure" film photography. You can sharpen, adjust contrast, dodge and burn, add in the effect of a gradient filter to name but a few. A very few.
So certainly, processing your captured image data shouldn't be classed as cheating.
Where the line is between what you consider to be acceptable enhancement and the realm of digital art is up to you.
I'm personally happy to do all the adjustments I described above and even to clone out a small piece of rubbish or the like but, unless I'm deliberately trying to create fictional art as opposed to enhance a photograph, I tend to steer clear of things such as adding motion blur, combining images, cloning large objects in and out. I don't dismiss these as "wrong", just find that they aren't for me, at this stage in my photography.
Best of luck finding a path that works for you, whether it's to adjust the parameters of the 20D to respond more like your previous camera or to get stuck in with the post processing.
And, by the way, a potential downside to our cameras can definitely be how easy it is to get sucked into spending a lot of time on that processing!
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05/15/2005 03:41:57 PM · #7 |
Kavey,
Good points re: the difference between my manually adjusting the images or the camera doing it for me.
I suspect I need to get off my purist mentality and come to the realization that images very rarely come out of ANY camera perfect. I seriously feel like I'm just experiencing a learning curve.
I got so fluent with some of the manual settings with my 5050z that I guess I expected to be able to just sail with my 20D. HA! A little bit of a rude awakening.
Learning curve. LEARNING CURVE. Hehe. |
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05/15/2005 03:44:30 PM · #8 |
Definitely worth remembering that!
Many of the images created by the "greats" in traditional film photograpy were not printed "straight out of the camera" as it were - a LOT of work was done in the darkroom to realise the vision. Ansel Adams is an oft (and probably over) used example but a good one to use as people often assume his prints represent what he captured on film exactly.
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05/15/2005 03:45:56 PM · #9 |
Quick way to switch between Parameters/Presets is to set the Set button.
menu > jump > Jump > use big dial to go 9 clicks down to Custom Functions (c.fn) > set > use big dial to Select 01 > set > use big dial to select 2: Change Parameters > set > half shutter squeeze to get out of menu.
This will set you up to quickly change Parameters while in shooting mode by pressing Set button and using big dial to select between the 2 presets (which you can change), black and white, and the other 3 custom parameters that you can set.
Try the different settings to see what sharpness you like, I have one of custom parms set to full sharpness to imulate the Point and Shoot (Shot to Printer) cameras.
With the camera on while in shooting mode press the set button look at the LCD on top Use wheel to Select pr-1, pr-2, pr-3, pr- bw, pr-p1, pr-p2.
Very easy way to test different parms pr-p1 and pr-p2 are the presets...
PR-P1 is the sharper of the Presets and if you wanted you could make it a click sharper. |
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05/15/2005 04:31:36 PM · #10 |
I wanted to add my two cents as well.
One of the things I noticed about the Canon 20d camera is the flat color images. I have posted these comments previously as well.
That is why I shoot indoors with my Nikon D70 and outdoors with my Canon 20d. Simply because the 20d is so much faster. In terms of the images the Nikon photos are better. They have more color, sharper, and need less P/S corrections.
The Canon 20d, which I consider my main camera ends up with good or great results after I apply several of Photoshops editing features.
I am disappointed with this aspect, because I want a great photo right out of the camera. Then I want to make it a greater photo when it gets post processed in Photoshop.
I have worked all the different "parameters" and the results are the same. You have to photo correct all of your images.
I know that some people here would never want to admit it, but this camaera and digital photography still has many miles to go, before its at an acceptable film level quality. I don't want to work in the film format. The world is too fast, and timeframes and deadlines are endless. Most of my work is on the internet. I need digital quality NOW. Buying other more expensive camera's will not do the job.
Its the whole digital photo technology that has to catch up with our expectations. |
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05/15/2005 04:39:17 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by zagman:
Its the whole digital photo technology that has to catch up with our expectations. |
Absolutely - I think it's still in it's infanct and developing all the time - can't even imagine where it will be only 5 years time let alone 10 or 20!
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05/15/2005 05:16:13 PM · #12 |
I agree, somewhat, with the softness issue, though for me, it works to my advantage since I shoot children a great deal of the time, and I like a soft look.
I disagree with the images from the 20D being "flat" color. I have experienced terrific results with my 20D images straight out of the camera. Last Sat I shot 150 photos of two young children, over a wide range of exposure settings, and the vast majority of the shots needed no post processing whatsoever.
I feel that I get much better color out of my 20D than I do my 10D.
Linda |
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05/15/2005 06:21:53 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by zagman:
That is why I shoot indoors with my Nikon D70 and outdoors with my Canon 20d. Simply because the 20d is so much faster. In terms of the images the Nikon photos are better. They have more color, sharper, and need less P/S corrections. |
Interesting that you mention the D70. A friend of mine has one, after purchasing this camera and then viewing her pix, the colors and overall look of the out of the camera (D70) pix are superior to the 20d. Part of the reason I went with the 20d is my previous familiarity with the Canon EOS line (film) and the lenses I already have paid for. Plus I knew that I was getting myself into more of a deep pool with the 20d. I am prepared to fully embrace the 20d, warts & all.
Learning Curve. I repeat. Learning Curve. |
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05/15/2005 09:24:15 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by zagman:
...I know that some people here would never want to admit it, but this camaera and digital photography still has many miles to go, before its at an acceptable film level quality... |
I believe the milage has been met. The dynamic range of DSLRs, especially of the pro bodies, is astounding, IMO, when compared to film. It just takes skill to use that latitude to its potential, and it takes new skills, which are not inherited from an older technology.
Kavey's posts are, IMO, right on the money, particularly when she asks for expectations. I wonder, sometimes, how many of those who go out and acquire a DSLR, have a real use and need for one. It is quite easy to catch the fever and upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. It is -or so it seems to me- just as easy to end up choking on it.
But I have also ceased to wonder why some LA residents commute to work in Ferraris and others apply racing stripes to Hummers. ;-)
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05/16/2005 12:13:56 AM · #15 |
I'm slowly learning to shoot with the cameras capabilities. Most images in life, if you really look at them are fairly flat and dull. The eye and brain just does not register everything that is there. The question is, "is the camera capturing what is there as you see?" Post processing is used to make a photo pop out of that every day eye-ball medium.
My 2 cents. |
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05/16/2005 12:37:36 AM · #16 |
If you're looking for a quick way to post process a group of raw files, try using RawShooter essentials. It's free, and it has several controls available. The latest version supports the 20D too....
RawShooter
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05/16/2005 01:06:02 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by zagman:
...I know that some people here would never want to admit it, but this camaera and digital photography still has many miles to go, before its at an acceptable film level quality. |
That has been achieved way back in 2000 and we're talking about the venerable Canon D30 vs Provia 100F, Check this comparison. And if we talk about the 1Ds Mark II we're surpassing Medium Format film.
What people don't realize is that photos out of a DSLR NEED processing just like Film from a Camera need processing. A DSLR is NOT a Polaroid camera. Read This Essay.
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05/16/2005 01:36:55 AM · #18 |
| i upgraded to a 20D from an olympus C5060. i liked the olympus quite a lot, and i thought the quality was good. but now that i have a 20D, i wouldn't even think of using the 5060. the quality is much better from the 20D, and it's probably easier to use. i agree that a lot of the shots from the this camera need post processing, depending on lighting conditions and other things. but that's something you just have to get used to with a DSLR. it may seem tedious to tweak all of your images, but a lot of the time they will turn out better if you do it rather than the camera. |
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05/16/2005 03:17:55 AM · #19 |
does anybody else have LOTS of trouble with the settings??... i mean if i try and take a photo on dusk, and use the P mode, it won't let me use what i want, so i go to the M mode and it's even worse, i can get one setting right , but then the other one won't budge.... has anyone found a great website explaining how to use these features properly??.. i know it's only me, but geez..... i am really starting to hate this camera....
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05/16/2005 03:50:47 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by roadrunner:
does anybody else have LOTS of trouble with the settings??... i mean if i try and take a photo on dusk, and use the P mode, it won't let me use what i want, so i go to the M mode and it's even worse, i can get one setting right , but then the other one won't budge.... has anyone found a great website explaining how to use these features properly??.. i know it's only me, but geez..... i am really starting to hate this camera.... |
Simple - don't use the P-Mode - it will turn off a lot of the adjustable features of the camera. Learn to use apeture and shutter priorty modes to get the results you want. What you need is a book about setting the right exposure yourself and not putting the camera into full auto mode - if you just want to point and shoot, then you don't need a DSLR, you can get just as good results from a decent compact digital.
Digital shots need processing in the same way as film shots do. When a film is processed, loads of adjustments are made at the lab to get puncher colours or better contrast. You have to do the same with your digital shots too. |
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05/16/2005 05:06:45 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by roadrunner:
does anybody else have LOTS of trouble with the settings??... i mean if i try and take a photo on dusk, and use the P mode, it won't let me use what i want, so i go to the M mode and it's even worse, i can get one setting right , but then the other one won't budge.... has anyone found a great website explaining how to use these features properly??.. i know it's only me, but geez..... i am really starting to hate this camera.... |
On P mode you have almost no control over the settings - that is the "fully automatic" mode. So you will not be able to use the settings you want.
In M mode, you have full control over the settings. You need to use the click wheel by your right index fiunger to adjust aperture. To set the exposure, you need to enable the thumbwheel on the back of the camera by flicking the on/off switch up a further notch to the crooked line. The thumbwheel is then active and you use that to set your shutter speed. You can compose very quickly using the two wheels at the same time: this was the feature that persuaded me to go 20D over 300D.
I highly recommend either Av or Tv mode. In particular, Av will allow you to adjust the aperture and let the camera automatically meter for the shutter speed, and set that for you automatically. If you enable the thumbwheel (as above), you can very quickly dial in over or underexposure away from the camera metering levels (though don't forget as I always do to reset the under/over exposure meter once you are done!). With Av Mode you will rarely exceed the capabilities of the camera and lens, and consistently take photos that are properly exposed (or at least within salvageable distance).
In P mode the camera will almost certainly have popped the flash for your dusk pictures (probably not what you wanted). If you want flash in Av, Tv or M modes, press the flash button to access. Remember that the flash sync is relatively slow on the Canon range - limits you to 1/250 shutter speed which makes it easy to overexpose. With the flash, it is sometimes easier to use Tv mode.
The manual is pretty good and these forums are as good a place as any to learn how to use the features. Plus try a few challenges and comment on lots of photos - and read other comments and see what people do right and wrong. Then visualise everything through the lens as you are taking a photo.
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05/16/2005 08:06:23 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Originally posted by roadrunner:
does anybody else have LOTS of trouble with the settings??... i mean if i try and take a photo on dusk, and use the P mode, it won't let me use what i want, so i go to the M mode and it's even worse, i can get one setting right , but then the other one won't budge.... has anyone found a great website explaining how to use these features properly??.. i know it's only me, but geez..... i am really starting to hate this camera.... |
On P mode you have almost no control over the settings - that is the "fully automatic" mode. So you will not be able to use the settings you want.
In M mode, you have full control over the settings. You need to use the click wheel by your right index fiunger to adjust aperture. To set the exposure, you need to enable the thumbwheel on the back of the camera by flicking the on/off switch up a further notch to the crooked line. The thumbwheel is then active and you use that to set your shutter speed. You can compose very quickly using the two wheels at the same time: this was the feature that persuaded me to go 20D over 300D.
I highly recommend either Av or Tv mode. In particular, Av will allow you to adjust the aperture and let the camera automatically meter for the shutter speed, and set that for you automatically. If you enable the thumbwheel (as above), you can very quickly dial in over or underexposure away from the camera metering levels (though don't forget as I always do to reset the under/over exposure meter once you are done!). With Av Mode you will rarely exceed the capabilities of the camera and lens, and consistently take photos that are properly exposed (or at least within salvageable distance).
In P mode the camera will almost certainly have popped the flash for your dusk pictures (probably not what you wanted). If you want flash in Av, Tv or M modes, press the flash button to access. Remember that the flash sync is relatively slow on the Canon range - limits you to 1/250 shutter speed which makes it easy to overexpose. With the flash, it is sometimes easier to use Tv mode.
The manual is pretty good and these forums are as good a place as any to learn how to use the features. Plus try a few challenges and comment on lots of photos - and read other comments and see what people do right and wrong. Then visualise everything through the lens as you are taking a photo. |
thanks legalbeagle.... not sure what it was in the way you said it.... but you just made more sense to me than the book ever did.... i have just sat for the last two hours playing and playing.... see in summer i never had a problem because of the light.... now it 's winter and the light is gone early, i have been having so much trouble... and i think you just " swithched the light on"... welll now everyone..look out... things are gunna change with the photos i post.....lol...... thanks so much again.... you've been a big help....
cheers |
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05/16/2005 10:04:25 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by RichSeal:
Digital shots need processing in the same way as film shots do. When a film is processed, loads of adjustments are made at the lab to get puncher colours or better contrast. You have to do the same with your digital shots too. |
You know--because this is done behind closed doors (well...the lab) and not so much the phototaker's responsibility I guess I never looked at it that way. Great point and well taken.
As for getting in over my head, my initial post was just remarking that there is quite a learning curve. I think I may have stated that I'm in it for the long haul and was just fishing for some feedback on my initial impressions. I bought the 20d knowing full well that I had a lot to learn ahead of me. Hence all my learning curve mumblings on. |
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05/16/2005 10:31:13 AM · #24 |
I noticed in another thread that you were using a 105mm macro lens for candid portraits...
doesn't sound like much fun to me, this lens is notoriously slow at focusing, by the time I'd have achieved focus lock, the subject would be half a mile away. What other lenses are you using? |
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05/16/2005 10:44:12 AM · #25 |
| And boy do I feel left out..I hardly do any post-processing. Unless it's funky editing. I've never used the unsharp mask or anything like that, I've never had a complaint from a client but sounds like you guys would have a thing or two to say about it! :-) |
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