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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Desaturating in minimal
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 05/19/2016 11:19:47 PM · #1
I was just asked the following question:

In the rules for minimal it says you may "fully desaturate your image"
I use LR 5 . If I slide the Saturation all the way to the left, (in the Basic panel), will that be ok? (i.e. allowed) - or is there a better method.

Can someone help?
 05/19/2016 11:30:55 PM · #2
I think we're allowed to do monoton/eB&W in camera also? I've had good results doing it that way.
 05/19/2016 11:46:54 PM · #3
Yes, but if the image is already taken, can we desaturate in LR?
 05/20/2016 12:07:33 AM · #4
I don't think it's allowed if sliders are used or available.
 05/20/2016 01:04:15 AM · #5
Originally posted by jomari:
I don't think it's allowed if sliders are used or available.


I agree.

The rule says:

"You may..........fully desaturate your image using your editing software's "desaturate," "convert to grayscale" or equivalent function. Customizable tools are not allowed"

In my opinion, something with sliders is a customizable tool, correct?
 05/20/2016 04:38:04 AM · #6
There are two ways to convert to B&W in Lightroom. The Saturation slider, which is apparently not allowed, and in the top of the Basic editing panel there's a "Treatment" switch (just above the White Balance sliders) that is always on "Color" but has a "Black&White" option as well. Click on that and it performs the convert to grayscale function that you'd get in Photoshop. The result is usually more pleasing than simple desaturation anyway.

That said, I would have to say that when it refers to your editing software's "desaturate" that has to be the Saturation slider in Lightroom. What wouldn't be allowed is any value other than 100% desaturated, but using it to fully desaturate your image shouldn't violate that rule.

Message edited by author 2016-05-20 04:40:53.
 05/20/2016 06:09:23 AM · #7
imho if you open the image in LR and don't touch anything but just slide the saturation slider to -100% you are all good.

what's the difference if you so it in PS?

then export (set size to 1200 and size no larger then 700kb) and select sharpen form screen and you are all set again.

05/20/2016 10:32:33 AM · #8
Could we get a SC opinion or two on this? I do especially appreciate [user]MemberJakeKurdsjuk[/user]'s option.
 05/20/2016 10:58:30 AM · #9
Since there are so many methods of doing pretty much everything, I think as long as the method of desaturating is simply removing color without any other effect, you should be OK.
Of course, you need to document that it was one step and that you have completely desaturated the entire image and done nothing else.
 05/20/2016 01:52:09 PM · #10
Originally posted by Tiberius:
imho if you open the image in LR and don't touch anything but just slide the saturation slider to -100% you are all good.

what's the difference if you so it in PS?

then export (set size to 1200 and size no larger then 700kb) and select sharpen form screen and you are all set again.


Desaturation, whether in LR or PS, is simple, just set the saturation value of every pixel to 0 (Hue & Luminance stay the same).

Both LR & PS have a Black & White conversion function that not only desaturates each pixel, but it also applies some level of luminance adjustment to each color band. These can be further adjusted, but doing so would violate the rules. The difference seems to be that by default Lightroom applies some level of analysis to setting the levels during the conversion which Photoshop will only do if you click on the Auto button after selecting the adjustment. Here's what you get...

Original Image:


Desaturated Image:


Photoshop B&W Conversion (Image -> Adjustments -> Black & White):


Lightroom B&W Conversion (Treatment: Black & White):


As you can see they're all a little different. And if you look closely you can see that the Lightroom image also looks slightly toned though for the life of me I can't tell you why. Perhaps it's not if you export it directly from Lr, but I resized it in Ps after converting in Lr.

Message edited by author 2016-05-20 13:54:56.
 05/21/2016 11:53:07 AM · #11
Desaturate not b&w mode and you are fine
05/21/2016 04:20:51 PM · #12
By "customizable tools" we mean tools that allow you to treat different color or luminosity ranges differently during the conversion. Tools that produce the B/W equivalent of Photoshop's color adjustment tools, for example, where you can alter the luminosity and saturation and tone of the component colors of the image. Since you're not allowed to adjust contrast or color balance or any of that stuff in post, you can't use any form of customizable conversion to B/W either. So, for an extreme example, you can't use Nik's B/W Effects {Pro, which is wildly customizable, even IF you leave it at the default setting and don't customize a thing. It's the tool, not the result, that matters.

So in PS, "convert to grayscale" is absolutely neutral and uncustomizable. That's the preferred and bulletproof method. Technically, LR doesn't even HAVE an acceptable method of conversion because you have to go into the develop module to make your conversion. Very slippery slope. I imagine we'd be forgiving of a LR conversion if we could duplicate it perfectly simply by desaturating 100% with that slider. But be careful! LR is dangerous because most people have it set to automatically correct lens/camera distortions, and THAT will get you DQd...

The safest approach, by far, is to shoot B/W in camera, especially if you want to be using lots of contrast or whatever. You can make those adjustments before you shoot, and you're good to go :-)
 05/21/2016 04:33:05 PM · #13
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


The safest approach, by far, is to shoot B/W in camera, especially if you want to be using lots of contrast or whatever. You can make those adjustments before you shoot, and you're good to go :-)


that's what I wanted to know in the other thread. a marginal difference when you think of it: the camera is applying the disqualifying operations on the basic shot/data, which ever so gracefully retires/disappears.... in fact, ALL jpgs are modifications.
 05/21/2016 06:21:59 PM · #14
Originally posted by tnun:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The safest approach, by far, is to shoot B/W in camera, especially if you want to be using lots of contrast or whatever. You can make those adjustments before you shoot, and you're good to go :-)


that's what I wanted to know in the other thread. a marginal difference when you think of it: the camera is applying the disqualifying operations on the basic shot/data, which ever so gracefully retires/disappears.... in fact, ALL jpgs are modifications.

That isn't really the issue. The goal of Minimal Editing, as a ruleset, is to force the photographer to commit to a certain, previsualized result and then push the shutter to capture that image. The photographer looks at the scene, chooses the in-camera settings s/he believes will best do the scene justice, and then makes it happen. No afterthoughts allowed. When your camera makes a JPG, well yeah that's an action taken upon the RAW file by the camera, but the action is defined and initiated by you, the photographer, mindfully, before the image is captured.
 05/21/2016 08:20:49 PM · #15
yeah, but... I can take the scene with quite a variety of presets. in a way it can become very much a matter of after the fact. unless I am shooting news.

not suggesting the ruleset is leaky, just that our thinking is leakier than we might think. I also think the default or non slidery bw conversions vary according to the program/camera. again this is not aimed at the rulesets, but at our thinking. there is nothing absolute about black and white.
 05/22/2016 08:57:36 PM · #16
this challenge is a big pita
whose idea? gets a bop onna head.
 05/22/2016 09:33:53 PM · #17
Originally posted by skewsme:
this challenge is a big pita
whose idea? gets a bop onna head.


What she said ++++
 05/22/2016 09:35:16 PM · #18
gonna find one to shoot, a bop onna head.
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