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11/10/2010 09:27:42 AM · #1 |
I'm new to the site, couple of months maybe... But from the beginning I decided as a personal rule not to vote in those challenges where I participate because of the "conflict of interests"...
Not because I'd give a low score to the others, most of them way better photographers than me (I'm just a beginner), that would be unethical and I'm mature enough to recognize when someone else's work is better than mine, but because to me it's just weird to judge while I'm judged... It's a psychological thing I guess...
Wonder how other people see this...
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11/10/2010 09:32:45 AM · #2 |
Then you have nothing to worry about. Vote away. I do.
Originally posted by lreynelsg:
... and I'm mature enough to recognize when someone else's work is better than mine, ... |
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11/10/2010 09:36:06 AM · #3 |
Many threads on this, actually. One from last week even, I believe. Everyone has a different take on this, but I also don't vote in challenges in which I'm participating. I also keep scores off (mostly). All in all it's more enjoyable that way. Shoot, edit, submit, shoot, edit, submit.
But I do vote the challenges I'm not in, and I try to leave comments on all the photos of the challenges I am in. It's extremely interesting to see the different ideas and treatments, and how they differ from what I submitted, and I want to leave the enjoyment at that. |
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11/10/2010 09:36:15 AM · #4 |
| I don't find my average score differs any between the challenges I enter, and the challenges I don't enter. In fact my average was significantly lower in the shapes challenge(one I didn't enter) and the complimentary colors challenge(one I did). I think if you feel you can be objective and still vote, you should vote. |
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11/10/2010 09:39:30 AM · #5 |
It's been discussed many times, but I always think it's an interesting discussion.
I try to always vote on the challenges in which I'm entered. When I first started, it was hard not to compare the score I was receiving with the scores I was giving. I was thinking -- "I'm at a 5.5, this shot is worse than mine, so I'll give it a 5." Big mistake. First of all, the scores are so fluid, you might be below 5 in the beginning and end up above 6. And second, the scores you are receiving have nothing to do with your own tastes. Ignore your score, and vote the way you want to vote.
I was able to very quickly completely ignore what I was giving and pretend that I hadn't entered the challenge. I get great joy out of voting on the challenges, because I know the time, effort, etc involved in shooting for that challenge. I actually think I'm more opened minded on these challenges, because I went through the same process. I love seeing the shots that are better than mine, and freely vote them high, because I see what I could have come up with, and the originality is exciting.
Plus, I feel that I learn the most from things in which I'm interested. When I'm in a challenge, I'm much more interested in that challenge, I look at things more deeply.
I feel that I have gained much more by voting in those challenges.
One exception -- if I have a photo that is scoring very: high-ribbon range, I will not vote in the challenge. I do not want to take the chance of being more critical on the top shots because I might be competing with them for a ribbon. My first challenge that scored in the 7s, there was a shot that beat mine. I gave it a 9. I wondered afterward whether I would have given it a 10 any other time -- was I looking more closely for flaws because it was my direct competition.
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 09:42:13.
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11/10/2010 09:45:29 AM · #6 |
I tend to have more interest in the challenges I am entered in, so I almost always vote on the ones I am in. Once in a great while, If I feel I cannot vote fairly for some reason, then I'll abstain.
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11/10/2010 09:48:38 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Plus, I feel that I learn the most from things in which I'm interested. When I'm in a challenge, I'm much more interested in that challenge, I look at things more deeply.
I feel that I have gained much more by voting in those challenges. |
I feel the same way. When I enter a challenge I am much more likely to say, "Wow! that was a great idea, I wish I had thought of that!" I look at the ones I feel are going to be the winners, look at what they did and how they photographed and really learn a lot.
I guess you can do that without voting, but I think voting causes you to look harder at a photo, you try to get inside the photographers head and think, why they did what they did. I think if I wasn't voting I would not give the photo the same consideration. |
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11/10/2010 10:16:35 AM · #8 |
I do spend a lot of time looking at the challenges I've entered, but I don't vote. I think I'd be fair, but I don't have to worry about it.
There is, however, an easy explanation of this reverse bell curve, which can be found on every single entry. Some people can't handle voting in a competition in which they are entered.
My most recent:
Avg (commenters): 6.8889
Avg (participants): 5.5500
Avg (non-participants): 6.5043 |
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11/10/2010 10:32:42 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
I do spend a lot of time looking at the challenges I've entered, but I don't vote. I think I'd be fair, but I don't have to worry about it.
There is, however, an easy explanation of this reverse bell curve, which can be found on every single entry. Some people can't handle voting in a competition in which they are entered.
My most recent:
Avg (commenters): 6.8889
Avg (participants): 5.5500
Avg (non-participants): 6.5043 |
I noticed a huge diversity in the 4am challenge. However, I'm not convinced that it's because people are voting low on those challenges because they've entered them. I also think that there are a lot of people who are interested in photography, but don't think they're good enough to enter the challenges. If you don't think you're good, the photos on the site probably impress you and you vote accordingly. The flip side is -- there's also a number of very good photographers who enter who aren't as easily impressed -- they notice the problems, the haloing in the HDR, the oversharpening, etc, and vote accordingly. (I loved your photo, btw -- I was one of your 8s :)
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 10:33:56.
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11/10/2010 10:42:33 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
There is, however, an easy explanation of this reverse bell curve, which can be found on every single entry. Some people can't handle voting in a competition in which they are entered.
My most recent:
Avg (commenters): 6.8889
Avg (participants): 5.5500
Avg (non-participants): 6.5043 |
But that is for your own entry. I've usually found participant and nonparticipant votes to be reasonably close and I've seen a few with higher participant votes. Here's my last 5 challenges. Some have a difference, but it's nto huge.
Member
Avg (all users): 6.5490
Avg (commenters): 8.5000
Avg (participants): 6.4182
Avg (non-participants): 6.8837
Open
Avg (all users): 5.3631
Avg (commenters): 7.5000
Avg (participants): 5.0714
Avg (non-participants): 5.4526
Member
Avg (all users): 5.7194
Avg (commenters): 7.6667
Avg (participants): 5.7955
Avg (non-participants): 5.6842
Open
Avg (all users): 6.3235
Avg (commenters): 8.0909
Avg (participants): 6.3243
Avg (non-participants): 6.3234
Member
Avg (all users): 5.5874
Avg (commenters): 7.0000
Avg (participants): 5.2121
Avg (non-participants): 5.7000
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 11:02:12.
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11/10/2010 10:44:23 AM · #11 |
I second Wendy's reasoning ...
ETA: Just saw your post Steve. Do you notice any difference depending on whether it's a member or an open challenge?
Message edited by author 2010-11-10 10:47:22. |
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11/10/2010 10:53:04 AM · #12 |
My free study was actually the other way around this time:
Place: 81 out of 312
Avg (all users): 6.1389
Avg (commenters): 8.2000
Avg (participants): 6.1942
Avg (non-participants): 6.0000
Views since voting: 84
Views during voting: 254
Votes: 144
Comments: 7
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11/10/2010 11:04:00 AM · #13 |
Try this one, a yellow ribbon last night:
Place: 3 out of 42
Avg (all users): 7.0000
Avg (commenters): 8.4167
Avg (participants): 6.1053
Avg (non-participants): 7.0733
Views since voting: 797
Views during voting: 581
Votes: 251
Comments: 40
Favorites: 3 (view)
***********
With this image, I noticed a distinct plummeting of score in the last 12 hours, including at least half a dozen downward adjustments without new votes. This is an image that was never below 7 until the last day, then it dropped from the 7.3 range to the 6.99 range in last minute corrections, then got its 7 back on the nose when 2 votes were dropped at rollover. I try not to draw conclusions from this sort of pattern, but sometimes it's hard.
Still, I ended up with a ribbon so all's well in the Bear Den. Right up until rollover I was wondering "Am I really gonna get back-to-back 7's with NO ribbon?"
R.
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11/10/2010 11:04:10 AM · #14 |
I vote and I vote early. Since scores fluctuate so much in the beginning I know that by voting early I tend to keep my mind more open and free. The few times I voted late and my image was doing badly I was very careful to be fair. In the end I vote because I want others to vote so I want to lead by example, plus I learn more by analyzing others photographs.
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11/10/2010 11:05:40 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by PennyClick:
ETA: Just saw your post Steve. Do you notice any difference depending on whether it's a member or an open challenge? |
Does not seem to correspond to anything, at least not with my small sampling above. I added whether they were open or member. I feel that more "tactical voting" goes on in the open challenges, but it is made up for by people having higher expectations in the member challenges.
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11/10/2010 11:10:19 AM · #16 |
I noticed a massive difference in the votes between participants and non-participants for the 4-5am challenge, too. Like Robert, my score also fell dramatically in the last 50 votes, but the pattern seems to be repeated across the top 10 at any rate. Interestingly, the overall average score is only a little below that of the non-participant average, suggesting that they have made up the bulk of the voters.
Place: 2 out of 42
Avg (all users): 7.0465
Avg (commenters): 8.4688
Avg (participants): 6.3810
Avg (non-participants): 7.1055
Views since voting: 1160
Views during voting: 711
Votes: 258
Comments: 65
Favorites: 11 (view) |
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11/10/2010 12:27:23 PM · #17 |
| 42 entries wit 260+ votes at the top. Non participant votes definitely carried the day. |
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11/10/2010 12:34:03 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
42 entries wit 260+ votes at the top. Non participant votes definitely carried the day. |
Mmm, Sara being a bit thick there....:P |
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11/10/2010 12:44:01 PM · #19 |
| It would be interesting to know the number of participants vs. non participants when reviewing the averages. We know that the larger number of votes the more stable the average will be. If you have a situation where there are 100 votes and there were 90 participants and only 10 non participants the latter's average will be much more susceptible to wild swings. I wouldn't put too much stock in this comparison without knowing the proportion. |
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11/10/2010 05:51:22 PM · #20 |
I see numbers of you are disagreeing with me on the voter breakdown, but let me submit this example, also from last night:
Average Vote (Commenters): 7.111
Average Vote (Participants): 5.318
Average Vote (Non-Participants): 6.592
That's a serious discrepancy. And only 29 participants in that one. At that point you can almost name the poor sports.
Sorry, but for as much as you can stand by your honesty, which I certainly will as well, there are some poor cards in the deck. |
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11/10/2010 06:33:18 PM · #21 |
Right, that's why some of us are singling out this particular challenge: 250-odd votes received on a challenge with only 42 entrants, so it's quite clear that the non-participants are carrying the load here. Add that to the fact that many of us saw our scores dropping seriously in the last 12 hours, with numerous downward-adjustments-without-new-votes, and it's hard NOT to conclude that tactical voting is taking place. I always used to pooh-pooh this theory, but I'm beginning to wonder. Of course, in the end it ought to be affecting everyone equally, so I suppose it may not matter much, but still... And of course there are probably plenty of alternative explanations, and I'm not really a conspiracy-theorist guy, so just ignore my ramblings, please :-)
R. |
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11/10/2010 06:44:19 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Right, that's why some of us are singling out this particular challenge: 250-odd votes received on a challenge with only 42 entrants, so it's quite clear that the non-participants are carrying the load here. Add that to the fact that many of us saw our scores dropping seriously in the last 12 hours, with numerous downward-adjustments-without-new-votes, and it's hard NOT to conclude that tactical voting is taking place. I always used to pooh-pooh this theory, but I'm beginning to wonder. Of course, in the end it ought to be affecting everyone equally, so I suppose it may not matter much, but still... And of course there are probably plenty of alternative explanations, and I'm not really a conspiracy-theorist guy, so just ignore my ramblings, please :-)
R. |
Mine did the same with the landscapes challenge, in the end I only missed 4th place by 2 1,000th of a point. I missed 3rd by 4 100th of a point. I gave each of the contestants above me a good score. What if I had gone and changed each of their votes to a 1? Maybe I would be the one with a ribbon at the very least I would have had 4th. I would never do that, but I can see how it would be tempting to someone who had a high score and had a chance of winning. |
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11/10/2010 06:48:43 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Right, that's why some of us are singling out this particular challenge: 250-odd votes received on a challenge with only 42 entrants, so it's quite clear that the non-participants are carrying the load here. Add that to the fact that many of us saw our scores dropping seriously in the last 12 hours, with numerous downward-adjustments-without-new-votes, and it's hard NOT to conclude that tactical voting is taking place. I always used to pooh-pooh this theory, but I'm beginning to wonder. Of course, in the end it ought to be affecting everyone equally, so I suppose it may not matter much, but still... And of course there are probably plenty of alternative explanations, and I'm not really a conspiracy-theorist guy, so just ignore my ramblings, please :-)
R. |
Actually Bear, I think you are probably incorrect, at least as far as your "affecting everyone equally" assumption... I suspect that this strongly affects the higher scoring images, while having very little effect on the low-scoring images. |
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11/10/2010 06:53:11 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Actually Bear, I think you are probably incorrect, at least as far as your "affecting everyone equally" assumption... I suspect that this strongly affects the higher scoring images, while having very little effect on the low-scoring images. |
That's what I meant, actually: that anyone whose image looks like a winner is probably getting equally dinged. Sorry I wasn't more clear.
R. |
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11/10/2010 07:13:58 PM · #25 |
Well that's why I'm interested in this at the moment: Because there were so few challenge participants that the data is right there in your face. I do not vote in the challenges in which I partake. Maybe I don't trust myself. Regardless, this past week has had a seriously low number of participants. That last example I posted was from the Homemade Landscapes challenge.
Avg (all users): 6.4800
Avg (commenters): 7.1111
Avg (participants): 5.3182
Avg (non-participants): 6.5921
29 participants.
That received 250 votes. So at least 222 people averaged a 6.59 vote, which is a decent sample, and at most 28 people averaged a 5.31 vote.
The same data could be pulled for the 4 to 5 a.m. challenge. |
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