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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Suggestions >> Limit exclusive challenges to 1
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12/12/2009 06:55:46 AM · #1
Limit exclusive challenges to 1 and not the choice out of 2.

Why?

1) With two challenges many photographers opt to choose the one that is the easiest for them, discouraging them to get out of their comfort zone. This way you end up with two challenges with a lower average quality.
2) Too many times we now get two challenges with low participation and low voter/comment involvement.
3) It is easier to vote and comment on one theme.
4) These are the free unpaid challenges, if anything, the option to choose out of two topics should be a paying members only option. This could encourage people to join and actually support the site.

And rather, I would see two paid member challenges, one rolling over on sunday evening and one on wednesday evening.
12/12/2009 06:58:41 AM · #2
hey not all of us have credit cards and are working...
12/12/2009 07:11:58 AM · #3
Originally posted by purifier:

hey not all of us have credit cards and are working...


What is the problem? You still get your weekly challenge, you only have to produce something that will fit into that one challenge.
12/12/2009 07:27:42 AM · #4
1) With two challenges many photographers opt to choose the one that is the easiest for them, discouraging them to get out of their comfort zone. This way you end up with two challenges with a lower average quality.

How will DPC decide which is easier? A variety of people feel comfortable in a variety of fields. While I might be very challenged by a particular topic, it may fall right into the 'comfort zone' of another. Leaving it open to 2 topics still gets the creative juices following.

2) Too many times we now get two challenges with low participation and low voter/comment involvement.

How do you attribute that to having 2 topics. People are busy, the economy sucks, more important stuff going on in the lives of folks.

3) It is easier to vote and comment on one theme.

For you maybe. For others, voting is what they like to do. Having a ton of beautiful photos to look through can be fun. Why take away some of the fun? If it's difficult for you then perhaps you should stick to one topic and let the rest of us vote as we like.

4) These are the free unpaid challenges, if anything, the option to choose out of two topics should be a paying members only option. This could encourage people to join and actually support the site.

Paying members get to use more advanced editing techniques AND get a Free Study. There are plenty of other reasons why you would become a paid member. I doubt you would see an increase in memberships if you limit open challenges to 1 per week. This system has worked so far and those 'non-paying' members still contribute to this site in other ways.
12/12/2009 07:28:19 AM · #5
Originally posted by Azrifel:

Limit exclusive challenges to 1 and not the choice out of 2.


I think the choice of two exclusive challenges is a good idea and works very well at the moment.

Originally posted by Azrifel:

1) With two challenges many photographers opt to choose the one that is the easiest for them, discouraging them to get out of their comfort zone. This way you end up with two challenges with a lower average quality.


I'd say that the challenges vary so quickly that photographers are never stuck for opportunities to get out of their comfort zone. I like how the challenges are often twinned thematically rather than by style.

Originally posted by Azrifel:

2) Too many times we now get two challenges with low participation and low voter/comment involvement.


That may be true but i don't really see a problem with a 50 odd participant challenge. It would always be nice to get more voters/commenters but that is true in all challenges. There was a thread recently about low voting and commenting in the Free Study.

Originally posted by Azrifel:

3) It is easier to vote and comment on one theme.


It's really not that much easier to vote and comment on one challenge of 150 images that two of 70 each.

Originally posted by Azrifel:

4) These are the free unpaid challenges, if anything, the option to choose out of two topics should be a paying members only option. This could encourage people to join and actually support the site.


I think the balance between the two is ok and a good thing at the moment. I like how the site supports those too poor or young to become members. It a good service i feel i don't think they should be penalised with less challenges.

Originally posted by Azrifel:

And rather, I would see two paid member challenges, one rolling over on sunday evening and one on wednesday evening.


IMO i think things strike a good balance as as they are.
12/12/2009 07:54:18 AM · #6
I personally would rather see a limit set on voting. So you are not allowed to vote on a challenge that you have entered. But encouraged to vote on the ones you do not enter. For that to work (at least somewhat properly) you would need to keep both open challenges.
12/12/2009 08:20:20 AM · #7
Originally posted by Bugzeye:

I personally would rather see a limit set on voting. So you are not allowed to vote on a challenge that you have entered. But encouraged to vote on the ones you do not enter. For that to work (at least somewhat properly) you would need to keep both open challenges.


I know this has been discussed many times, but it's still worth repeating. I learn the most by voting on challenges that I've entered. I do not compare their photos to mine. I enjoy finding photos that surpass mine--it shows me what I did wrong, what I could have done better, how I could have been more creative. I look more carefully at the photos, and I also look multiple times before I vote. I have a lot more interest in the challenge, and I think I'm much better at voting in these challenges.

The only time I question my impartiality is if mine is doing spectacularly well from the start. If I am in the 7s in the first day or two of voting (which has only happened about 4 times, btw, and only stayed there once...), then I don't vote. I'm too wrapped up in the score at that point.
12/12/2009 08:29:39 AM · #8
I like the current system but would love to have another member challenge on Wed. or Thur. Like this week.

Voter turnout is low for many reasons. Economy, holidays, unemployment, winter in the northern hemisphere, etc.

Raising the amount of challenges and not reducing is the way to go imo.
12/12/2009 09:10:03 AM · #9
Originally posted by Jac:

Voter turnout is low for many reasons. Economy, holidays, unemployment, winter in the northern hemisphere, etc.


This is a complete digression, but how does that follow? I'd think winter, with people stuck indoors for longer, would encourage more voting, not less?

R.
12/12/2009 09:16:14 AM · #10
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Jac:

Voter turnout is low for many reasons. Economy, holidays, unemployment, winter in the northern hemisphere, etc.


This is a complete digression, but how does that follow? I'd think winter, with people stuck indoors for longer, would encourage more voting, not less?

R.


I should have said participants and not voters. Actual people taking photographs is what I meant Robert. :) I now have my caffeine fix and that should help my brain to think before I post. :)

It's a beautiful chilly day here, time for me to dress up and go hunting for Rural and Urban decay. Have a good one all.
12/12/2009 09:27:39 AM · #11
I see your point. But I still feel too many people vote with tatics in mind when they are voting on a challenge that they have entered. More people do it than not. The averages show that after every challenge. .3 -.5 percent lower scores by participants on nearly every entry of every challenge. I know you for one vote fair and I am sure it helps you in the learning aspect. But the people who are not voting with the same mindset as you and a few others who vote fair, They are not really helping anyone but themselves. That is why I would like to see at least a trial run for a couple of weeks at least 4 or 5 challenges to see what happens.

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Bugzeye:

I personally would rather see a limit set on voting. So you are not allowed to vote on a challenge that you have entered. But encouraged to vote on the ones you do not enter. For that to work (at least somewhat properly) you would need to keep both open challenges.


I know this has been discussed many times, but it's still worth repeating. I learn the most by voting on challenges that I've entered. I do not compare their photos to mine. I enjoy finding photos that surpass mine--it shows me what I did wrong, what I could have done better, how I could have been more creative. I look more carefully at the photos, and I also look multiple times before I vote. I have a lot more interest in the challenge, and I think I'm much better at voting in these challenges.

The only time I question my impartiality is if mine is doing spectacularly well from the start. If I am in the 7s in the first day or two of voting (which has only happened about 4 times, btw, and only stayed there once...), then I don't vote. I'm too wrapped up in the score at that point.
12/12/2009 10:54:31 AM · #12
Originally posted by Bugzeye:

I see your point. But I still feel too many people vote with tatics in mind when they are voting on a challenge that they have entered. More people do it than not. The averages show that after every challenge. .3 -.5 percent lower scores by participants on nearly every entry of every challenge. I know you for one vote fair and I am sure it helps you in the learning aspect. But the people who are not voting with the same mindset as you and a few others who vote fair, They are not really helping anyone but themselves. That is why I would like to see at least a trial run for a couple of weeks at least 4 or 5 challenges to see what happens.

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Bugzeye:

I personally would rather see a limit set on voting. So you are not allowed to vote on a challenge that you have entered. But encouraged to vote on the ones you do not enter. For that to work (at least somewhat properly) you would need to keep both open challenges.


I know this has been discussed many times, but it's still worth repeating. I learn the most by voting on challenges that I've entered. I do not compare their photos to mine. I enjoy finding photos that surpass mine--it shows me what I did wrong, what I could have done better, how I could have been more creative. I look more carefully at the photos, and I also look multiple times before I vote. I have a lot more interest in the challenge, and I think I'm much better at voting in these challenges.

The only time I question my impartiality is if mine is doing spectacularly well from the start. If I am in the 7s in the first day or two of voting (which has only happened about 4 times, btw, and only stayed there once...), then I don't vote. I'm too wrapped up in the score at that point.


I always wondered how much of that was people who actually shoot a lot, vs people who just look. If you are a lot more experienced, usually you are a little harsher at voting because you know how they could have improved the shot. But then there are the people who are just starting and who might be wowed by something like topazing. (I was one of those for quite awhile. I loved the look, but I had no idea how to get it. So it was kind of magical to begin with :D) I'd be curious how many voters are lookers, not doers. This could significantly skew results of participants vs non-participants. Because when all is said and done, some of the spectacular shots actually get a higher participant vote.

Message edited by author 2009-12-12 10:55:27.
12/12/2009 10:56:59 AM · #13
Originally posted by Bugzeye:

I see your point. But I still feel too many people vote with tatics in mind when they are voting on a challenge that they have entered. More people do it than not. The averages show that after every challenge. .3 -.5 percent lower scores by participants on nearly every entry of every challenge.


I have a question before I accept your declaration, and then a few comments if it's true.
1) Have you actually done a statistical analysis? (On all people's photographs, not just yours) What was the confidence interval you used?

And now for the comments.
1) So? .3-.5 (it's not percent, it's the actual value) isn't ~that much lower of a score. A low 6 will be a high 5, and so on. And really what that means as that, instead of 'score inflation', we have 'score deflation'. Those who know about the score deflation (and recall, in a separate topic I heard about people saying that Free Study's are often subject to extreme score deflation where good scoring photographs are given a considerable penalty for some reason) can adjust for it to understand what their real score could have been, not to mention how good of a photograph they really had.

2) On Trolling. Looking at my photographs; yes, seems to be at least 1 person giving me a 1 on every one of my entries. *gasp* Oh no. Either they thought my photographs have been snapshot sludge and not actually art (which may very well have been the case, who knows?) or, they're trolls hoping to lower the average and raise their position. But lets look a little further ... if every single person is getting hit by these trolls (and that's what they are if they're lowering your position because they want to make theirs seem better), then ... doesn't that lower everyone's average, and therefore have an overall effect of ... nil?

3) Perhaps the people that actually entered the challenge know how hard it was to get photographs of this sort, and the score was affected thusly?

4) I don't tend to vote on contests I didn't enter (unless I'm on a roll), because when people are voting on my work, I'm more likely to vote on theirs. I try to remain relatively unbiased (although I actually have a bit of an issue with photograph inflation, I don't know if I've ever given a 1 out, but I've surely given a 10)

5)
Originally posted by Bugzeye:


That is why I would like to see at least a trial run for a couple of weeks at least 4 or 5 challenges to see what happens.

Please, oh please don't do that test on any high-submission-count challenge! I like receiving votes and I like receiving comments! Imagine Hidden Gem (the contest with the most submissions on this website, if memory serves me. In a sense, it could have been seen as more-or-less a count of how many active members there are on this site, and even inactive members (like I was) that wanted in on the action and were perhaps pulled from idleness)
12/12/2009 11:13:16 AM · #14
I didn't see this mentioned so sorry if I missed it.

The original reason that two challenges appear and you have to choose which one is that with only one there were too many entries for people to even make the 20% cut-off on voting.

If this underlying reason no longer exists then maybe moving back to one challenge is a good idea but if this underlying reason still exists then going back to only one challenge makes no sense.

Message edited by author 2009-12-12 11:13:41.
12/12/2009 01:07:54 PM · #15
Originally posted by vawendy:

I learn the most by voting on challenges that I've entered. I do not compare their photos to mine. I enjoy finding photos that surpass mine--it shows me what I did wrong, what I could have done better, how I could have been more creative.

I don't need to say much here, Wendy said it for me. I would be unhappy if I could not vote in the challenges I am in. I usually give better than I get, and I have had entries where the participant average has been higher than the non-participant. I am mostly competing against my past performance and I think I vote fairly whether I am in the challenge or not. Actually, I may vote more fairly in the challenges I am in, because I have more appreciation for how difficult the subject was.
12/12/2009 02:50:58 PM · #16
I have found that sometimes I can't find something that fits one of the challenges even though thats the one I would RATHER enter. its nice haveing some flexability to fit the vagaries of what i can actually find to photograph.

I normally try to find something for every challenge then enter the ones that seem to be the best image i have.
12/13/2009 03:22:31 AM · #17
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

I didn't see this mentioned so sorry if I missed it.

The original reason that two challenges appear and you have to choose which one is that with only one there were too many entries for people to even make the 20% cut-off on voting.

If this underlying reason no longer exists then maybe moving back to one challenge is a good idea but if this underlying reason still exists then going back to only one challenge makes no sense.


That was it right, I even forgot about that.


12/13/2009 03:24:49 AM · #18
Originally posted by heavyj:

1) With two challenges many photographers opt to choose the one that is the easiest for them, discouraging them to get out of their comfort zone. This way you end up with two challenges with a lower average quality.

How will DPC decide which is easier? A variety of people feel comfortable in a variety of fields. While I might be very challenged by a particular topic, it may fall right into the 'comfort zone' of another. Leaving it open to 2 topics still gets the creative juices following.


It is a challenge, to get you out of your comfort zone, not to keep you in it. If you want to learn, as so many claim to be the reason why they are here, than giving an opt-out with a 2nd choice is not the way to push them to learn an uncomfortable or difficult subject.


12/13/2009 03:28:58 AM · #19
Originally posted by Azrifel:

Limit exclusive challenges to 1 and not the choice out of 2.



I believe it was made an exclusive challenge because just one challenge was getting so many entrants sometimes that it was getting huge like some of the free studies. But looking lately I believe they could be combined with no problems. If you're just worried it's not promoting people to sign up why not just make it one challenge every three or four months? Just give us bums a taste, as we don't really deserve the experience without paying. LOL I saw your "shit" post in another thread. I don't think I'm the fish you were running the spoon in the water to catch. LOL
12/13/2009 04:03:46 AM · #20
Originally posted by heavyj:


2) Too many times we now get two challenges with low participation and low voter/comment involvement.

How do you attribute that to having 2 topics. People are busy, the economy sucks, more important stuff going on in the lives of folks.


Being busy, the economy, all other aspects of life.... If that is too much for people, they will not enter even if there were 4 options.

Here are some participation statistics for open (EO) and member (MC) challenges:

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_839415.gif

In many cases the balance is way off, like 33% vs 66% and 25% vs 75% distributions. I claim that people opt for the easiest way out. When the two options are equally difficult, you come to a 50/50 participation.

The easiest way out doesn't push people to creatively give their best, to learn.

Also, in my very humble opinion, a participation level for a challenge of 31, around 60-70 and even below 100 basically erodes the worth of a ribbon. What is more satisfying and what is more a showcase of your ability? A win in a challenge with 31 participants or one with 189?
This does not say however that the ribbon winners in low participation challenges suck. The field is only so small that there is almost no competition and I am not sure if you should be happy with that.

My point is, that participants, if they really want to learn and grow, are better of with one subject that they have to delve into and not an option to take the easy route because the other stuff is out of their comfort zone and psychological league.


12/13/2009 04:13:53 AM · #21
Originally posted by FireBird:

Originally posted by Azrifel:

Limit exclusive challenges to 1 and not the choice out of 2.



I believe it was made an exclusive challenge because just one challenge was getting so many entrants sometimes that it was getting huge like some of the free studies. But looking lately I believe they could be combined with no problems. If you're just worried it's not promoting people to sign up why not just make it one challenge every three or four months? Just give us bums a taste, as we don't really deserve the experience without paying. LOL I saw your "shit" post in another thread. I don't think I'm the fish you were running the spoon in the water to catch. LOL


Yep, the signing up and pay up stuff is not the nr 1 intention of this suggestion. Getting people to pay is not my problem, I have no financial ties to this site and I do not feel bad about having free challenges every week or having even open basic free studies every few months or so. As far as I am concerned everyone is welcome to participate for free in the free sections. When I first came here it was all for free.

But if you would like to get something done, you mention all the arguments in favour of what you want. Hence the reference to paying members. Everyone is very welcome to give their counter arguments.


12/13/2009 04:20:41 AM · #22
Originally posted by heavyj:

3) It is easier to vote and comment on one theme.

For you maybe. For others, voting is what they like to do. Having a ton of beautiful photos to look through can be fun. Why take away some of the fun? If it's difficult for you then perhaps you should stick to one topic and let the rest of us vote as we like.


What is difficult for me is that there is not a ton of beautiful photos. There are only a few beautiful photos and tons of very average low quality uninspired photos.

And instead of running away after 7 and half years, like many others before me, I would very much like to push this site back into the high quality inspirational (and sharing) area that it once was. And believe me, there are tons of places to go and yes I am already there too.

Personally I am more a photography apreciator, an art-lover, the buyer and not a photographer. My eyes hurt sometimes after voting now. And instead of smacking people down and abandoning the site, I would like everyone to improve and make this site more a pleasure to my eyes again.

Message edited by author 2009-12-13 04:22:13.
12/13/2009 06:36:57 AM · #23
No.

Originally posted by Azrifel:

Limit exclusive challenges to 1 and not the choice out of 2.

Why?

1) With two challenges many photographers opt to choose the one that is the easiest for them, discouraging them to get out of their comfort zone. This way you end up with two challenges with a lower average quality.
2) Too many times we now get two challenges with low participation and low voter/comment involvement.
3) It is easier to vote and comment on one theme.
4) These are the free unpaid challenges, if anything, the option to choose out of two topics should be a paying members only option. This could encourage people to join and actually support the site.

And rather, I would see two paid member challenges, one rolling over on sunday evening and one on wednesday evening.
12/13/2009 06:59:00 AM · #24
Originally posted by Azrifel:

I would very much like to push this site back into the high quality inspirational (and sharing) area that it once was.


As a relative DPC newbie i'm often curious when i hear statements like this from some of the 'old-timers'. Do people really think the quality and standard has dropped a lot over the last few years? I've looked back over some of the challenges from 2003 onwards and i can't really divine a huge slump.

Take for example your own highest scoring photograph, Sander, your Yellow from 2003...

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_11849.jpg

a very good photograph and worthy of the Yellow and a 7.1, and there other great images in that challenge. But if it were entered in the same challenge today i don't necessarily think it would get the Blue, with the quality of other entries dropping off sharply behind. Also, 64 entries in that 2003 challenge, about the same as expected today i'd say. I just don't see a huge difference in quality of entries really.

12/13/2009 07:36:01 AM · #25
Originally posted by Azrifel:

What is difficult for me is that there is not a ton of beautiful photos. There are only a few beautiful photos and tons of very average low quality uninspired photos.


But DPC seems to have a high intake of people who are new to photography and come to the site to learn and be challenged. Somewhere like 1X is what you want for a ton of beautiful photos.

Originally posted by Azrifel:

My eyes hurt sometimes after voting now. And instead of smacking people down and abandoning the site, I would like everyone to improve and make this site more a pleasure to my eyes again.


I agree that smacking people down or threatening to abandon the site wouldn't help anyone. I think if you want everyone to improve in order to make the site more pleasurable to your eyes the best way is with thoughtful, constructive criticism. Impart your photographic knowledge and skills, the same knowledge and skills which gained you that Yellow Ribbon way back in 2003, to the novice photographers here to help them grow. I think that would be far more worthwhile that trying to get the number of challenges reduced.

Message edited by author 2009-12-13 07:37:54.
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