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DPChallenge Forums >> Web Site Suggestions >> Elimination of Average Vote Cast stat...
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11/18/2009 10:41:16 AM · #1
While it seems that this was probably created with good intention, it has become more of a tool for others on the site to put down people's opinions and use it as justification against various arguments. I can't see the need for this being a public stat, but maybe as something I can view in my personal profile.
11/18/2009 10:56:12 AM · #2
Then we should also get rid of "average vote received", which is probably responsible for many more opinions being discounted. F'rinstance: "This commenter only has a 4.87 average received, so they don't know what they are talking about!"

In combination with other figures, it does help to give me an idea of where a member is coming from and what they are looking for.
11/18/2009 11:01:58 AM · #3
What he said.

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Then we should also get rid of "average vote received", which is probably responsible for many more opinions being discounted. F'rinstance: "This commenter only has a 4.87 average received, so they don't know what they are talking about!"

In combination with other figures, it does help to give me an idea of where a member is coming from and what they are looking for.
11/18/2009 11:04:53 AM · #4
I'm fine with that stat being "hidden" as well. Especially with how varied the voting "criteria" is here, its kind of a useless stat either way.
11/18/2009 11:08:25 AM · #5
I disagree.
11/18/2009 11:11:12 AM · #6
Personally, I'd rather see them expanded with a graph that breaks down votes just like the challenges. A voter with a 5.5 average and a big peak in the middle of the graph isn't quite the same as one with the same average, but all votes of 1 or 10. No need for a public battle over such a pattern, but like the entries themselves, a graph would offer some insight into how photos are received.
11/18/2009 11:12:34 AM · #7
You both would say that with your middle of the road 5.xx average vote cast. Practically the Switzerland of voting. Dirty neutrals.
11/18/2009 11:14:19 AM · #8
I don't think it's necessary to remove it. When people use it as an argument about the 'failings' or whatever of another person, it only shows the desperation of the person making said argument. These sorts of people will use ANYTHING they can, and eventually you'd have to hide every stat that has anything to do with anything. If they had to they'd even eventually point out things like "this person hasn't been favorited very much, they're worthless". et al, ad infinitum, etc.

If you want to effectively curb people that want to use such statistics against someone, it's called just leaving the argument once they fall to such tactics.
11/18/2009 11:15:49 AM · #9
Originally posted by AJSullivan:

While it seems that this was probably created with good intention, it has become more of a tool for others on the site to put down people's opinions and use it as justification against various arguments. I can't see the need for this being a public stat, but maybe as something I can view in my personal profile.

I might agree with you, if your average vote was higher. ;-)
11/18/2009 11:16:10 AM · #10
Originally posted by scalvert:

Personally, I'd rather see them expanded with a graph that breaks down votes just like the challenges. A voter with a 5.5 average and a big peak in the middle of the graph isn't quite the same as one with the same average, but all votes of 1 or 10. No need for a public battle over such a pattern, but like the entries themselves, a graph would offer some insight into how photos are received.


Actually this would be pretty good to have. Because then it puts some meaning behind the number and hsow that i'm not just down voting everything, but that I do use the full range of the scale, and that some are indeed worthy of 9s and 10s, as some are worthy of 1,2,3s
11/18/2009 11:19:56 AM · #11
Actually I'd like to see it expanded even further also. Break it down as Average vote cast and have a separate category for Average votes cast in challenges entered.....
11/18/2009 11:21:46 AM · #12
Originally posted by scalvert:

Personally, I'd rather see them expanded with a graph that breaks down votes just like the challenges. A voter with a 5.5 average and a big peak in the middle of the graph isn't quite the same as one with the same average, but all votes of 1 or 10. No need for a public battle over such a pattern, but like the entries themselves, a graph would offer some insight into how photos are received.


Yeh, I like this idea.


11/18/2009 11:26:50 AM · #13
Originally posted by AJSullivan:

You both would say that with your middle of the road 5.xx average vote cast. Practically the Switzerland of voting. Dirty neutrals.

You should be more worried about hiding the 'Challenges Entered' stat.... :p
11/18/2009 11:49:10 AM · #14
We could become DPStats.com!
11/18/2009 12:12:39 PM · #15
Originally posted by scalvert:

Personally, I'd rather see them expanded with a graph that breaks down votes just like the challenges. A voter with a 5.5 average and a big peak in the middle of the graph isn't quite the same as one with the same average, but all votes of 1 or 10. No need for a public battle over such a pattern, but like the entries themselves, a graph would offer some insight into how photos are received.

Excellent idea. Seconded
11/18/2009 12:13:41 PM · #16
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Then we should also get rid of "average vote received", which is probably responsible for many more opinions being discounted. F'rinstance: "This commenter only has a 4.87 average received, so they don't know what they are talking about!"

In combination with other figures, it does help to give me an idea of where a member is coming from and what they are looking for.


I don't really think much about the average vote received but I do look at the critic's past entries/portfolio before I give their critiques much merit. I really don't know what I'm doing when it comes to photography and I most definitely absorb advice best from those who practice their preaching. If someone doesn't apply their advice to their own images I don't give their thoughts as much consideration as to those who do.

Is that a good thing? I dunno. I do know that I'm not taking carpentry advice from a man who's house is falling in.
11/18/2009 12:16:52 PM · #17
Well, I got hammered yesterday about my average voting scores. I don't like to be judged by my voting score. I may be an idiot and I'll still be able to be a member of the site and vote accordingly. This is real life, there are idiots and non idiots, you should be prepared for everyone.
My specific case is that until some time ago I was voting using weak to no criteria. Then I decided to stop voting, study and learn more and only then start to vote again. My average vote on rainbow challenge is still 4.xx and now I'm much more criterious. So how the average voting score can tell that I have improved or not my voting skills? Should I have an average voting higher than what I would do? Then remove 1,2 and 3 from the scoring scale.

I'm for the implementation of the break down of the votes, and if possible, giving the option to show by individual challenge or for the total history.

And I'm for the requirement for commenting and giving reasonable reasons for giving scores lower than 4. Even a drop down with pre defined reasons would be better than the way it is today.
11/18/2009 12:30:12 PM · #18
Originally posted by AJSullivan:

You both would say that with your middle of the road 5.xx average vote cast. Practically the Switzerland of voting. Dirty neutrals.

Originally posted by JH:

You should be more worried about hiding the 'Challenges Entered' stat.... :p

Definitely need one more thread complaining about something someone wants the site admins to change......8>)

I'll admit it.....I utilize the info on the bio pages to tailor my impressions about someone, especially someone who is quite vocal in their complaints. It gives a point of reference. I also use it to try and ascertain where a commenter may be coming from when I get a comment that makes me wonder. I know that nobody has any more right to an opinion than anyone else, but I often wonder why someone will decide something has to be done to accomodate them if they don't participate when there are hundreds of people who participate heavily and seem to be okay with the site's administration.

AJ since you opened this can of worms, if one goes to your profile page, what kind of impression should one get?

You've participated in one challenge, voted maybe a dozen or so, depending on the 20% criteria, made a comment for every five or six, yet you've posted over 2100 times and started 88 threads.

You don't pay for membership to support the site, or put up a portfolio, yet you don't hesitate to tell the site how you think it should be changed.

Shouldn't that indicate that you're pretty much not here for the photography contest?

You have a couple of good cameras, and lenses, yet you don't seem to use them here.

Just out of curiosity if we make it subjective, what do you get from DPC?
11/18/2009 12:37:55 PM · #19
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

AJ since you opened this can of worms, if one goes to your profile page, what kind of impression should one get?

You've participated in one challenge, voted maybe a dozen or so, depending on the 20% criteria, made a comment for every five or six, yet you've posted over 2100 times and started 88 threads.

... Just out of curiosity if we make it subjective, what do you get from DPC?

Using his profile page as a gauge, I would say he is here for the forums and does not enjoy getting beat up in challenges.
11/18/2009 12:46:54 PM · #20
My Statistics
Challenges Entered: 73
Votes Cast: 16,847
Avg Vote Cast: 4.9934
Votes Received: 12,268
Avg Vote Received: 5.1748

Okay tell me, in plain terms, how these stats are perceived.
I vote lots of 7s and 8s, but I also give out 4s and some 3s (but only if it appears there was no effort put into the shot at all) - in the end, it evidently all averages out. To read here that people would judge me by what I vote? I'm curious.
I have six days left to decide whether to renew my membership for a second year.

11/18/2009 12:51:41 PM · #21
Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Okay tell me, in plain terms, how these stats are perceived.

Avg vote cast seems a little harsh, but not terribly so. One thing I try to keep in mind is that whatever score I think a photo deserves should get the next vote up. So an image that I think is about average gets a 6 because a 5 would actually drag down a 5.1 score.
11/18/2009 12:54:56 PM · #22
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Okay tell me, in plain terms, how these stats are perceived.

Avg vote cast seems a little harsh, but not terribly so. One thing I try to keep in mind is that whatever score I think a photo deserves should get the next vote up. So an image that I think is about average gets a 6 because a 5 would actually drag down a 5.1 score.


And furthermore, the midpoint on the scale from 1 to 10 is actually 5.5.....

So if the point values are linear, then an average photo should get a final score around 5.5. I think what happens is some voters use an exponential scale while voting and vote average images lower in the range (below 5) and really good images much higher (7 and up).

Message edited by author 2009-11-18 13:00:50.
11/18/2009 12:56:07 PM · #23
I'm here to learn things. I can learn a good amount just by reading the forums and viewing the images and voting in them when I have the chance. I also feel that I bring a good amount to the table in discussions and love talking shop.

I do have a portfolio up, but since I let my membership lapse, its currently hidden from view. As I'm not entering challenges, there is really no benefit for me to re-up my membership, and my profile has links to my flickr site and my website, so the portfolio behing hidden doesn't really bother me.

I would love to do more challenges, or any for that matter, but ultimately my schedule doesn't allow it, and I rather not throw some half assed shoe horned entry in, just to say I entered. The downside of being a fulltime student and a fulltime employee and a part time photographer simultaneously.

In regards to the complaining about something for the admins to change...notice that they have a whole forum dedicated to "SITE SUGGESTIONS", ask for feedback and you shall receive.

Other than that, not really sure what you are getting at. My personal experience on the site and how I absorb info is different than yours I guess, oh well.
11/18/2009 01:01:15 PM · #24
Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Okay tell me, in plain terms, how these stats are perceived.

Your vote cast vs your recieved suggests that the average photo on DPC is almost an even 5 in your opinion and your own work is average by your own judgment. I also suspect your personal scale may be a little different than mine, and you may be giving a 5 to the same things I give a 6 to.

My own average cast has gone up some as I learn to appreciate some other genres of photography, or just giving a higher vote to recognize some special efforts that I know will do poorly overall.

Challenges Entered: 187
Votes Cast: 17,641
Avg Vote Cast: 5.9523
Votes Received: 32,988
Avg Vote Received: 5.3584
# Comments:Made: 10,118
# Received: 3,095

One of the issues is we all want to consider ourselves above average. Remember, however, that someone who can regularly pull in the 5's on this site will have their friends and relatives wowing about what a great photographer they are.

11/18/2009 01:07:23 PM · #25
Originally posted by PennyStreet:

My Statistics
Challenges Entered: 73
Votes Cast: 16,847
Avg Vote Cast: 4.9934
Votes Received: 12,268
Avg Vote Received: 5.1748

Okay tell me, in plain terms, how these stats are perceived.
I vote lots of 7s and 8s, but I also give out 4s and some 3s (but only if it appears there was no effort put into the shot at all) - in the end, it evidently all averages out. To read here that people would judge me by what I vote? I'm curious.
I have six days left to decide whether to renew my membership for a second year.


There will always be people who judge by numerical standards of their own device. And others who will not. Penny, your work here is one of the reasons I love this place, so please don't let number crunchers or DNMC police get you down. Your work is fantastic, it speaks to me, and I could care less how you vote, how much you vote, your average vote given or received. I'm here to see great photography, to learn from and be inspired by great photographers. Can't put a number on that....
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