| Author | Thread |
|
|
03/26/2009 11:38:25 AM · #1 |
So here is my situation....
12/17/08 I bought a used '06 Ford Explorer from a local car dealership here in Florida. I bought with it a limited powertrain warranty.
On 2/10/09 I took the vehicle in for its first scheduled maintenance - an oil change and they also replaced the air filter.
On 2/26/09 my roommate was driving the vehicle on the highway. He felt the engine loosing power so he drifted to the berm. No lights on the dash to indicate a problem, no gauges showing any issues. Turned the vehicle off, popped the hood and smoke came pouring out. Could not get the vehicle restarted so we had it towed 5miles to the closest Ford dealership (which is about 40miles from my house currently).
The service department looked at my engine - it has both head gaskets blown, heads are warped, one piston is cracked - basically needs a whole new engine.
Ford had an appraiser come out to look at the damage and see if it was covered under my warranty. Well - the engine is - but what Ford says caused the engine to fail - a clamp and hose that came off the thermostat - is not covered - so they are denying my warranty claim.
The dealership where I bought it is also telling me they can't do anything since the warranty was from Ford, not from them.
Did some online research and talked to my dad about it - he works for Lincoln Mercury - has for over 35yrs. Found out there was a technical service bulletin issued by Ford about the clamps on the radiators for this type of vehicle. It wasn't a recall, but all vehicles with these clamps were supposed to have them replaced. From what my dad can tell from research on my VIN number, mine were never replaced.
I have also found from some online complaint websites that these vehicles seem to have a serious problem with the radiators themselves - cracks, leaks, completely breaking down...having to be replaced one to three times in two year old vehicles which should also not be the case with such low mileage vehicles. However, the dealership where my vehicle is sitting is telling me they don't see anything wrong with my radiator.
They have no explanation of how the clamp and hose could have come off the thermostat draining my radiator so quickly with no warning on the dash or outward physical signs of a problem. There was no puddle in my driveway of coolant...my roommate never heard any noise in the engine while driving (although I am pretty sure they probably had the radio on and the windows down).
From what I can gather, it sounds like the clamp and hose on my thermostat should not have failed unless there was an underlying cause. A defect in the product (like the radiator clamps and hoses they were supposed to replace) or something else wrong somewhere in the engine that would have caused this to happen. The vehicle only has just over 25,000 miles on it and everyone I have talked to so far says with that low mileage - this should never have happened.
I talked to the BBB, but in Florida, I do not have a lemon law case. Lemon law here only applies to vehicles still covered under the original manufacturers warranty which mine is not. Lemon Law would take the issue back to Ford. BBB says I can file a complaint against the dealership - but not sure if that is the right avenue?
But so far everyone I have talked to at Ford and the dealership is telling me there isn't anything they can do.
My dad is now recommending that I look into getting a lawyer - which I also have no idea where to start to find one or if I would even have any kind of a case.
Does anyone have any kind of experience with this or any ideas on what could have caused this hose and clamp to fail? Any suggestions on what my next step should be? My car has been out of service for a month now and I am at my wits end. I go between being angry and horribly depressed. This is just more stress in my life that I really don't need right now. I have one roommate who was laid off of work twice last year and is still unemployed. My hours at my job have been cut and I have medical bills out the wazoo right now... The last thing I need is to be dealing with the jerks at Ford and the dealerships trying to get this taken care of. If I cannot find a way to have them repair this I am looking at a $6000 engine which I don't have the money to replace. In the meantime, I am making payments on a vehicle I cannot drive.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer me some insight or advice...I don't know where else to turn at this point for anything - something - that might have been missed.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 11:43:53 AM · #2 |
Check the salvage yards for used engines
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 11:51:34 AM · #3 |
nevermind
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 13:05:08. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 11:52:11 AM · #4 |
I would get a lawyer especially since your dad did research and he did find a problem stating that there was a problem with that clamp and that it should have been replaced but yours never was. See if you can call a locale tv news station telling you them your problem, you'll never know maybe they can help out as well. Because it sounds like FORD is giving you the runaround and does not want to cover it. Those warranties can seem so shady at times, seems like they find there ways out of them
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 11:58:22 AM · #5 |
nevermind
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 13:05:52. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:02:10 PM · #6 |
I have a couple of questions for you. You say the vehicle is a 2006, you said the warranty was through Ford and not the dealer you bought it from. Does that mean it is still under the Factory 3/36 warranty? What is the in service date for the vehicle.
I have seen alot of those constant pressure clamps crack and seep, however I can not ever remember seeing one allow the hose to blow off. Not saying it can't happen, but it would be very rare. Another thing that bothers me, if the vehicle was blowing smoke and severely overheated as you stated when he popped the hood, then your friend obviously ignored the warning indicator on the dash. I would not expect anyone to warranty such abuse. For the vehicle to have that much damage at such a young age it would have had to have been driven for quite some time overheating, especially since it went into Over temp mode trying to save itself(this is the loss of power that he indicated while driving). I'd be placing the blame more on your friend then on Ford at this point.
Matt |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:08:03 PM · #7 |
Chicken and egg!
Did the hose come off which caused the engine to overheat and the head gaskets to fail?
OR
Did the engine overheat, the coolant boil and the excess pressure cause the hose to come off?
I'm not familiar with the Explorer but I'd imagine there to be a warning light if the coolant gets too hot? If so, and the light didn't come on it's likely that the hose came off first (top scenario) and the lack of coolant at the temperature sensor then stopped the warning light coming on (I think this sensor is right next to the thermostat anyway). I have the same engine in my car and I've changed it. It's a fairly robust iron engine and not prone to failure, so if the heads are warped and the piston is broken, it sounds like it was driven for a while without any cooling. I think Ford (known in the UK as Fraud) are being disingenuous to say that the engine is covered but the clamp isn't. The clamp is an inherent part of the engine. Normally exclusions are for DISPOSIBLE items like exhausts where they are expected to fail. I'd check the wording on the policy very carefully, partuclarly as you may be able to state scenario 2 to weaken their case. How can they prove what order the events occurred in?
If the hoses/clamps are a known fault and were not replaced before you bought the car then you may have a claim against the garage that sold the car to you?
Unfortunately it's a big engine (typical American car) and is likely to be expensive to fix. It you get stuck with it, I'd consider an engine transplant rather than repairing yours as they do last well, at least when correctly cooled.
Hope that helps. Good luck. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:10:26 PM · #8 |
Was it a Ford CPO(certified pre-owned vehicle)? If so you'd think they probably should've check for service bulletins and remedied before selling.
What makes a CPO vehicle better than a regular used vehicle?
A Ford CPO vehicle must be under 6 model years old and can't have more than 80,000 actual miles on the odometer. Each Ford CPO vehicle goes through a rigorous 169-point inspection covering the powertrain, chassis, amenities and the overall condition of the vehicle. Each vehicle also comes with 6-year/100,000-mile powertrain limited warranty coverage, 3-month/3,000-mile comprehensive limited warranty coverage, roadside assistance, a full tank of gas at delivery and much more.
Did you get a copy of the checklist when vehicle was delivered to you?
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:12:28 PM · #9 |
I'm assuming the service was performed at the Ford Dealer. The dealer had in hand a technical bulletin advising the replacement of the clamp that failed, and they did not offer to perform that service.
You may wind up needing a lawyer in the end, but before spending good money on that, I would contact the Ford regional rep. There is a chain of command that you can work your way through.
The last thing I would do, at this point, is to stop making payments. Your loan is a completely separate contract, and you can wind up trashing your credit record. Particulary, if you obtained your loan through anyone other than Ford Motor Credit. The bank advanced the money to buy the car, they did not warranty the vehicle. Last place you want to be is, no car and no credit to get a new one.
In the past, I have had good luck by going up through the food chain when I've had issues. It appears according to another posting, that you may be covered through your state's lemon law. Explore that route, and explore the local TV and newspaper ombudsman services. At this point in their struggles companies and dealers may be inclined to try to slough off a warranty claim, but at the same time they really aren't wanting any more bad press than they've already got.
Press them from as many free angles as you can. Save your money for the big battle, should you need it.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:14:56 PM · #10 |
No she doesn't. The vehicle is not covered under the original warranty and it's also not a repeat defect.
To qualify under the Florida Lemon Law or the federal Lemon Law, you must generally have a product that suffered multiple repair attempts under the manufacturer’s factory warranty.
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 12:15:36.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:23:30 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by MattO:
I have seen alot of those constant pressure clamps crack and seep, however I can not ever remember seeing one allow the hose to blow off. Not saying it can't happen, but it would be very rare. Matt |
Sometimes when these are installed at the factory they are over-tightened and crack. 2 days after I picked up my truck I noticed coolant sprayed all over under my hood. Took it back to the dealer and that's what they found. So the preesure could've blown it off at anytime.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:27:18 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by MattO:
I have seen alot of those constant pressure clamps crack and seep, however I can not ever remember seeing one allow the hose to blow off. Not saying it can't happen, but it would be very rare. Matt |
Sometimes when these are installed at the factory they are over-tightened and crack. 2 days after I picked up my truck I noticed coolant sprayed all over under my hood. Took it back to the dealer and that's what they found. So the preesure could've blown it off at anytime. |
I'm not sure how a Constant pressure clamp could possibly be overtightened. Perhaps you don't understand what a constant pressure clamp is that are used on those vehicles. These are not worm clamps.
Matt |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:36:16 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
No she doesn't. The vehicle is not covered under the original warranty and it's also not a repeat defect.
To qualify under the Florida Lemon Law or the federal Lemon Law, you must generally have a product that suffered multiple repair attempts under the manufacturer’s factory warranty. |
When I originally called the BBB they thought I might have a lemon law case, but what you stated above is exactly what they told me. In Florida, the only way the lemon law applies to a used vehicle is if it is covered under the original factory 3yr/36000 mile warranty. I am the 2nd owner of the vehicle. It was originally purchased Oct. 05 so it is past the original warranty.
As for my friend ignoring any problems while driving...
Before I bought this vehicle I had an Olds Bravada that needed a new transmission. Ended up having a rebuilt one put in the vehicle which failed two months later. With all the problems I have had in the past with my vehicles - he knows better than to mess around if there is a problem. He also has current issues with his Jeep, so if there was ANY indication that there was a problem, he would have immediately pulled over. He may not know how to fix cars, but he has been around them enough to know if there is a light on the dash or smoke coming out of the engine to stop immediately. But I think that is part of the problem as to why Ford and the dealerships are giving me such a headache about this. They also don't believe that there was no warning at all that there was something wrong until the engine started losing power.
"I'm not familiar with the Explorer but I'd imagine there to be a warning light if the coolant gets too hot? If so, and the light didn't come on it's likely that the hose came off first (top scenario) and the lack of coolant at the temperature sensor then stopped the warning light coming on (I think this sensor is right next to the thermostat anyway)."
This is what the mechanic at the dealership told me as well. If there was no coolant to hit the sensor to tell the vehicle that it was overheating - then no warning lights on the dash or gauges to tell the driver.
"Did you get a copy of the checklist when vehicle was delivered to you?"
I do not think it was a Ford CPO because I didn't get this nor the other warranties. Only the limited powertrain which had to be purchased...the only one they could offer me at the time I bought the vehicle. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:37:34 PM · #14 |
nevermind
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 13:06:18. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:40:55 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Perhaps you don't understand what a constant pressure clamp is that are used on those vehicles. These are not worm clamps.
Matt |
I'm talking about either of the 2 types that are factory installed. The spring type band clamps and wire type are better than the crimped on ones. My truck had the crimped on clamps which are machine tightened and crimped.
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 12:46:28.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:44:08 PM · #16 |
According to this link Florida doesn't have a used car Lemon Law.
Does my state have a Used Car Lemon Law?
No.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:44:39 PM · #17 |
I too have suspicions that warning signs or indicators may have been ignored. It *is* possible for total coolant loss to occur so quickly that the temperature sensor does not see an over-temp condition, at least until it is too late... I know because it happened to me. But when it happens, if you're paying any attention, it is pretty obvious (the huge cloud of steam behind the vehicle is one clue, LOL, and the smell of hot coolant is another). Ignore these at great risk.
The loss of power could have been from the vehicle going into "limp mode" or it could have been just the increased friction in the engine as it overheated. If the head gasket failed catastrophically, that probably contributed (lack of compression, coolant into the combustion chambers). It's hard to imagine the vehicle getting to this point without the driver noticing, but I wasn't there.
All this said, if there was a TSB and the clamps were not replaced, and the clamp was the root cause of the failure, it is the dealer's fault. They should have went over the vehicle prior to resale and reviewed all recalls and TSBs. The above suggestions to contact local news media ombudsmen and to talk with a lawyer are good ones. Above all, document, document, document. Most especially, photograph the condition of the vehicle, specifically the area where the failure occurred, before anyone has a chance to destroy evidence.
As suggested previously, *don't* stop paying on the vehicle. Your beef is with the dealer and/or Ford, not the bank.
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 12:46:19. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:45:39 PM · #18 |
Damn, wrong button...
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 12:46:04. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:50:46 PM · #19 |
I would like to clarify something. Just because there is a TSB for a condition does not mean it has to be/or is automatically performed. A TSB is a Technical Service Bulliten issued by a Manufacturer to help aid in the diagnostic purposes when a customer brings a vehicle in for repairs. Note these are only covered under warranty during the original manufacturers warranty. Meaning if the customer had brought the vehicle in for a coolant smell or loss of coolant issue(not a destroyed engine) then under the factory warranty if they were the cause they would have been covered.
Matt |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:57:28 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by MattO:
Perhaps you don't understand what a constant pressure clamp is that are used on those vehicles. These are not worm clamps.
Matt |
I'm talking about either of the 2 types that are factory installed. The spring type band clamps and wire type are better than the crimped on ones. My truck had the crimped on clamps which are machine tightened and crimped. |
The type of clamps used on ford hoses are squeeze type constant pressure clamps. there is no tightening process to them. The red ones in this photo scroll down are smaller but the same design used by Ford. They use spring steel that applies constant pressure and requires no tightening or allows for adjustments.
Matt |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 12:59:47 PM · #21 |
Lemon Laws are remedies for "failure to repair in a timely manner" or "repeated identical failures."
I'd like to know how the ECM can trigger an over-heat limp mode and NOT light the dashboard indicator. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 01:05:16 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by C_Steve_G:
Lemon Laws are remedies for "failure to repair in a timely manner" or "repeated identical failures."
I'd like to know how the ECM can trigger an over-heat limp mode and NOT light the dashboard indicator. |
Not only should the Guage be pegged, the Wrench light and Service Engine soon light should have been on. With multiple DTC's set. The 06 I believe also uses a CHT(cylinder head temp sensor) which is not reliant on Coolant actually hitting it to know if the engine is overheating. All of this information would have been logged into the Vehicles PCM and saved in the Freeze Frame data to be retrievable for the technician to read.
Matt |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 01:20:07 PM · #23 |
Assuming that you are on the hook for an engine rebuild, I would suggest that you look into an independent mechanic to replace the engine with a factory rebuilt unit from someone like Jasper. These engines are warranted and I think you might be able to save some money over a dealer rebuild. They also sell these engines at places like Advance Auto Parts and AutoZone.
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 13:20:26. |
|
|
|
03/26/2009 01:25:17 PM · #24 |
FORD You know what they say:
Buy a Ford
Buy the best
Drive a mile
Walk the rest.
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 13:27:04.
|
|
|
|
03/26/2009 01:25:38 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by dswann:
Assuming that you are on the hook for an engine rebuild, I would suggest that you look into an independent mechanic to replace the engine with a factory rebuilt unit from someone like Jasper. These engines are warranted and I think you might be able to save some money over a dealer rebuild. They also sell these engines at places like Advance Auto Parts and AutoZone. |
I highly recommend against aftermarket rebuilds from years of experience.
IF, and tit happens all to often, YOU, the customer, will bear the brunt of the time, expense, and aggravation involved when/if a problem arises.
Should you choose to go with a Ford reman, then labor and transportation costs will be covered uinder their warranty without having the mess of third-party administration which is a stone NIGHTMARE!!!!
|
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Prints! -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2024 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 04/24/2024 07:23:36 AM EDT.
