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01/17/2009 11:37:53 PM · #151
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

One way to answer your questions is to say the "original sin", and the subsequent sin which we all suffer from, is Pride. The proper orientation for life is to put God in the center. Pride always tries to displace God and put us at the center.

I don't buy that we all suffer from Pride. I have met people who are good, kind, caring, and selfless, yet do not ascribe to the idea that God is the answer to all things.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Your Pride is effectively removed when you realize you can only gain heaven through God's gift.

I believe it's possible through knowledge and acceptance to become humble, and reject Pride. If you're open-minded and willing, life teaches you that you're certainly not the center of the universe.

I know people who I feel have achieved this state of being without a belief in God.


Interesting discussion. Doc, my problem with this is as follows: Putting god at the center does two things. 1.) It removes personal responsibility and 2.) it allows you to be more selfish by using god as a proxy. It's not me that hates you it's my god. It's not me who disapproves of your type of marriage, it's my god. It's not me who wants you to conform to my belief, it's my god. Get the picture? Now if god wasn't at the center nobody would go around thinking like this, which only leads to hatred of thy fellow man when they refuse to believe in your god. History has shown this time and time again.

Message edited by author 2009-01-17 23:39:10.
01/17/2009 11:59:17 PM · #152
Originally posted by yanko:

Interesting discussion. Doc, my problem with this is as follows: Putting god at the center does two things. 1.) It removes personal responsibility and 2.) it allows you to be more selfish by using god as a proxy. It's not me that hates you it's my god. It's not me who disapproves of your type of marriage, it's my god. It's not me who wants you to conform to my belief, it's my god. Get the picture? Now if god wasn't at the center nobody would go around thinking like this, which only leads to hatred of thy fellow man when they refuse to believe in your god. History has shown this time and time again.


Cynicism at it's deepest Richard. I'll give you a better answer later, but I'm in the middle of a good movie.
01/18/2009 12:00:55 AM · #153
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I just can't go through this life assuming the worst, and carrying a negative attitude about human nature.


My point Jeb is not to pass judgement on these people you bring up but to point out your statement is without merit because what you see can easily be far from the truth. If you are going to start getting upset though we should just avoid going down the rabbit hole.
01/18/2009 12:17:05 AM · #154
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Interesting discussion. Doc, my problem with this is as follows: Putting god at the center does two things. 1.) It removes personal responsibility and 2.) it allows you to be more selfish by using god as a proxy. It's not me that hates you it's my god. It's not me who disapproves of your type of marriage, it's my god. It's not me who wants you to conform to my belief, it's my god. Get the picture? Now if god wasn't at the center nobody would go around thinking like this, which only leads to hatred of thy fellow man when they refuse to believe in your god. History has shown this time and time again.


Cynicism at it's deepest Richard. I'll give you a better answer later, but I'm in the middle of a good movie.


Not cynicism, but observation.
01/18/2009 12:26:53 AM · #155
I've always wondered that since God is supposedly everywhere, why do I need to go to a church to worship? COuldn't I just as easily do it in the shower (naked as created)? Or from my living room? Or from the bar and raise a glass and say "this one's for you, whoever you are"?

I would like to state that I follow no religion whatsoever (actually, the one that makes the most sense to me is Satanism- not the 'burn the cross' idiot kind, but the serious kind) but these points have always puzzled me.

Cheers.
01/18/2009 01:20:31 AM · #156
Originally posted by Tez:

I've always wondered that since God is supposedly everywhere, why do I need to go to a church to worship? COuldn't I just as easily do it in the shower (naked as created)? Or from my living room? Or from the bar and raise a glass and say "this one's for you, whoever you are"?

I would like to state that I follow no religion whatsoever (actually, the one that makes the most sense to me is Satanism- not the 'burn the cross' idiot kind, but the serious kind) but these points have always puzzled me.

Cheers.


The Church service is for fellowship (well, that's one reason). There are plenty of people who worship God in the shower. My wife is a great singer. She'd be example #1.

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 01:39:57.
01/18/2009 01:39:32 AM · #157
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Interesting discussion. Doc, my problem with this is as follows: Putting god at the center does two things. 1.) It removes personal responsibility and 2.) it allows you to be more selfish by using god as a proxy. It's not me that hates you it's my god. It's not me who disapproves of your type of marriage, it's my god. It's not me who wants you to conform to my belief, it's my god. Get the picture? Now if god wasn't at the center nobody would go around thinking like this, which only leads to hatred of thy fellow man when they refuse to believe in your god. History has shown this time and time again.


Cynicism at it's deepest Richard. I'll give you a better answer later, but I'm in the middle of a good movie.


Not cynicism, but observation.


So, you know, the movie wasn't as good as I thought. Anyway, I think your argument is a sort of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't for me because it is so un-PC these days to hold absolute values. If I agree with you, then you say I'm just using God to justify my hate-mongering, if I disagree then you just say I'm hate-mongering myself. No win.

It doesn't go unheard that you are reacting to the self-righteous religous person who condemns his neighbor with malice. People like this exist. Don't, however, hold the entire religion responsible. He's another CS Lewis quote I like because it make sense. "When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than
to say he is not a Christian." There are far too many passages telling us not to judge others. On the other hand, we believe fervently in actual good and evil. The Christian life, at it's essense, is truly about fighting the constant desire to place ourselves above God and to be the center rather than policing the world.

I spent yesterday and today with a bunch of guys from church and in the whole weekend one thing struck me to the point where I have to bring it up. I hope the true spirit of Christianity comes through here. In I Corinthians Paul writes to the church (this is a paraphrase), "If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love. "

I like talking on these threads. Partly because I think too many people have met too few Christians who are not scared of discussing the hard questions that are on everybody's mind. But part of the reason I'm here is my own Pride. I get caught up in it and think I'm pretty hot stuff. The bottom line is if you (and I think I know you well enough to it's not true) or anybody else just feels I'm only here to argue and prove you all wrong, then I've failed and I'm sorry.
01/18/2009 03:58:19 AM · #158
Thank you Dr. for your reply. You have given me some things to think about. Not at all the outcome I expected. :)
01/18/2009 05:21:25 AM · #159
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

So, you know, the movie wasn't as good as I thought. Anyway, I think your argument is a sort of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't for me because it is so un-PC these days to hold absolute values. If I agree with you, then you say I'm just using God to justify my hate-mongering, if I disagree then you just say I'm hate-mongering myself. No win.

It doesn't go unheard that you are reacting to the self-righteous religous person who condemns his neighbor with malice. People like this exist. Don't, however, hold the entire religion responsible. He's another CS Lewis quote I like because it make sense. "When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than
to say he is not a Christian." There are far too many passages telling us not to judge others. On the other hand, we believe fervently in actual good and evil. The Christian life, at it's essense, is truly about fighting the constant desire to place ourselves above God and to be the center rather than policing the world.

I spent yesterday and today with a bunch of guys from church and in the whole weekend one thing struck me to the point where I have to bring it up. I hope the true spirit of Christianity comes through here. In I Corinthians Paul writes to the church (this is a paraphrase), "If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love. "


So what was the movie? Btw, there's a third option. I could just think you're brainwashed. That's better than hate mongering, isn't it? :P

Seriously, it might help to clarify where I'm coming from. I have no problems with Christianity or religion in general. In fact, I find it all fascinating. I only object to religion when it's used to force indoctrination onto the unwilling such as in gay marriage. In my opinion, as a citizen of a greater society, our obligation is to abide by the Constitution, the law of our land, not the Bible or any other book. We talked briefly about this a while back and I think you disagreed but that's where I stand. In terms of practicing religion privately I fully support that as I would any private matter involving consenting adults.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I like talking on these threads. Partly because I think too many people have met too few Christians who are not scared of discussing the hard questions that are on everybody's mind. But part of the reason I'm here is my own Pride. I get caught up in it and think I'm pretty hot stuff. The bottom line is if you (and I think I know you well enough to it's not true) or anybody else just feels I'm only here to argue and prove you all wrong, then I've failed and I'm sorry.


Having an open dialog and the exchange of ideas are always good so even if I thought you did this for purely selfish reasons *wink wink* (jk) it would still serve some purpose. Also, my efforts to torment you is really an effort to help you control that pride of yours. :P
01/18/2009 07:45:33 AM · #160
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I just can't go through this life assuming the worst, and carrying a negative attitude about human nature.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My point Jeb is not to pass judgement on these people you bring up but to point out your statement is without merit because what you see can easily be far from the truth.

It's not without merit, it's just not as you see it.......I will not assume man to be bad until proven otherwise because it's not my way.

To assume that people are bad/sinful with NO proof is the exact cynicism that you just attched to Richard, isn't it?

Wouldn't it be more charitable to give people the benefit of the doubt?

It really doesn't cost you anything more to assume the best than the worst, does it?

I'm not talking about giving the house keys to a stranger, but why would you make people prove themselves to be good first?

I understand that's part of your belief system, but it's the major issue I have with Christianity in the first place.
01/18/2009 07:48:25 AM · #161
Originally posted by yanko:

Interesting discussion. Doc, my problem with this is as follows: Putting god at the center does two things. 1.) It removes personal responsibility and 2.) it allows you to be more selfish by using god as a proxy. It's not me that hates you it's my god. It's not me who disapproves of your type of marriage, it's my god. It's not me who wants you to conform to my belief, it's my god. Get the picture? Now if god wasn't at the center nobody would go around thinking like this, which only leads to hatred of thy fellow man when they refuse to believe in your god. History has shown this time and time again.


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Cynicism at it's deepest Richard. I'll give you a better answer later, but I'm in the middle of a good movie.


Originally posted by yanko:

Not cynicism, but observation.

Gotta agree here, Jason, I've seen too many people use God in this manner.

Televangelists come to mind.

ETA: Kinda supports your scummy human theory, but again, I don't think that speaks for all Christians, let alone all humans.

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 07:49:44.
01/18/2009 07:56:39 AM · #162
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I like talking on these threads. Partly because I think too many people have met too few Christians who are not scared of discussing the hard questions that are on everybody's mind. But part of the reason I'm here is my own Pride. I get caught up in it and think I'm pretty hot stuff. The bottom line is if you (and I think I know you well enough to it's not true) or anybody else just feels I'm only here to argue and prove you all wrong, then I've failed and I'm sorry.

You have raised my respect for you immensely, and I have learned much about being a Christian without having to listen to rabid meanderings or shouted nonsense.

Unfortunately for someone like me, it's extraordinarily difficult to find people like you who are comfortable enough, and honest enough in their love for Christianity to speak openly, without fear and defensiveness.

If you were hoping by your thread to reach one person and give them a better understanding of a good man who is a devout Christian, you have succeeded well, sir!

I'm STILL going to hope that you can understand my questions and search for knowledge and continue on, though.......8>)
01/18/2009 08:11:35 AM · #163
Originally posted by yanko:

my efforts to torment you is really an effort to help you control that pride of yours. :P


He's the DEVIL!!!!!

Can't find that red one he used to have as his profile.....
01/18/2009 10:35:14 AM · #164
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by david_c:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by david_c:

If you're still up for it, would you like to try Dan Barker's Easter Challenge?

--snip--OTOH, I think it is just as compelling an argument that within a decade there were people running around claiming Jesus was resurrected and dying for this belief.--snip--

It's also been only X number of years since L. Ron Hubbard concocted Scientology. Joseph Smith had followers during his lifetime. As did Muhammad, etc. I don't find it nearly as compelling, even leaving in the bit about the martyrs...all evidence of whom is anecdotal. Thanks for the reply, though.


Don't take my statement too far. I'm not saying it makes it truth, I'm saying it means there was likely a historical event it was based on instead of being wholly fabricated. To dismiss it as "myth" is, to me, the least viable of alternative theories.

If I write a story about green, one eyed monsters with telekenesis, bent on world domination, but set it in modern day New York...with comments on current socio-polictical events and using real historical figures in the backdrop, it is still fiction.

On what possible epistemologic basis can you now dismiss Muhammad and Joseph Smith as having provided genuine revelation?
01/18/2009 11:49:27 AM · #165
Doc, you stated earlier that you have free will that has been given to you by god. I have a few issue with the whole free will belief that I would like to see if you could clarify.

First is that god has given man the ability to choose, absent god's control. Most who believe in free will also believe that god is all knowing and all seeing, he knows the past, present and future. If god knows the future then he knows the choices you will make before you are even conceived here on earth. Here lies a problem, essentially you are predetermined to make the choices that god has foreseen you make, you cannot change your mind, you cannot choose a different path, you will live and do as god has already foreseen you do, that doesn't sound like free will, more like destiny or fulfillment of a predetermined life.

The second issue I have with free will is that god knows whether you will be worthy of heaven or hell by the choices you make in life before he creates you. This means that he creates an individual with the knowledge they will be damned, that doesn't sound like a loving creator to me. Maybe I'm missing something or you can clarify this belief.
01/18/2009 12:02:03 PM · #166
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

To assume that people are bad/sinful with NO proof is the exact cynicism that you just attched to Richard, isn't it?


I only have a few minutes because I'm off to church, but you are perfectly correct. My view of the world, for better or worse, is quite cynical. We all, more or less, are out for #1 (the very definition of cynicism). That's not to say we are not able to overcome this for periods of time and that people are not capable of great good and self-sacrifice, but the default is to shift back to selfishness.

Really the only person you can use to judge this is yourself. If you try to lay yourself bare and look with an unbiased approach (hard, I know), how much self-interest do you find? It really is probably unfair of both you AND me to judge the intentions of others for better OR worse because we lack the inside information of their motivation. We can however, judge ourselves and I know with certainty that I come up lacking.
01/18/2009 12:04:37 PM · #167
Originally posted by david_c:

On what possible epistemologic basis can you now dismiss Muhammad and Joseph Smith as having provided genuine revelation?


I think you miss my argument with you and Barker. I am not arguing that I can prove "genuine revelation". I am, however, arguing that you cannot dismiss the Easter story as mere "myth". There is very strong circumstantial evidence that 2,000 years ago there was a guy named Jesus who had followers and was executed. That's all I'm saying, but this is enough to refute Barker's ultimate point that the Jesus story is a myth.

I'll try to get to you Trev after church. And to the bit of affirmation from tog and jeb. Thanks. :) Richard, however, can continue to bust my balls.

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 12:05:56.
01/18/2009 02:25:27 PM · #168
Originally posted by trevytrev:

Doc, you stated earlier that you have free will that has been given to you by god. I have a few issue with the whole free will belief that I would like to see if you could clarify.

First is that god has given man the ability to choose, absent god's control. Most who believe in free will also believe that god is all knowing and all seeing, he knows the past, present and future. If god knows the future then he knows the choices you will make before you are even conceived here on earth. Here lies a problem, essentially you are predetermined to make the choices that god has foreseen you make, you cannot change your mind, you cannot choose a different path, you will live and do as god has already foreseen you do, that doesn't sound like free will, more like destiny or fulfillment of a predetermined life.

The second issue I have with free will is that god knows whether you will be worthy of heaven or hell by the choices you make in life before he creates you. This means that he creates an individual with the knowledge they will be damned, that doesn't sound like a loving creator to me. Maybe I'm missing something or you can clarify this belief.


Great questions and really you are hitting on a giant tension within Christianity. How much is under God's control and how much is under our control? I can't answer you totally. The question about God knowing the future and thus our actions are predetermined can possibly be "answered" (probably not the best word) by going back to my idea that God transcends time. From his vantage he can see all time like a plane spread out before him. It's possible, with regard to the future, he can see all futures. In other words, the future is not set but he knows all outcomes. Really the reality is our minds are not properly equipped to fathom such things. So one could come up with a synthesis of free will and God's sovereignty where we are free to make decisions but God is able (and does) nudge the future, as a whole, to conform with his will.

The second question, is another great one and one, like others, that you can take solace in by knowing it's been asked since Christianity's inception. Paul, when addressing this very question gives this rhetorical argument: (I'll give it to you in paraphrase again. If you want a more literal english translation, search for "Romans 9" and "NIV".) I will fully admit this is one of the "pointy" parts of Christianity and one many people cannot get over. But once again, grown-up religions have hard parts. Baby-religions are all warm fuzzies and feel-good.

Paul writes:
Is that grounds for complaining that God is unfair? Not so fast, please. God told Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion." Compassion doesn't originate in our bleeding hearts or moral sweat, but in God's mercy. The same point was made when God said to Pharaoh, "I picked you as a bit player in this drama of my salvation power." All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill.

Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?"

Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right? Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people. Hosea put it well:

I'll call nobodies and make them somebodies;
I'll call the unloved and make them beloved.
In the place where they yelled out, "You're nobody!"
they're calling you "God's living children."

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 14:26:51.
01/18/2009 03:16:29 PM · #169
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by trevytrev:

Doc, you stated earlier that you have free will that has been given to you by god. I have a few issue with the whole free will belief that I would like to see if you could clarify.

First is that god has given man the ability to choose, absent god's control. Most who believe in free will also believe that god is all knowing and all seeing, he knows the past, present and future. If god knows the future then he knows the choices you will make before you are even conceived here on earth. Here lies a problem, essentially you are predetermined to make the choices that god has foreseen you make, you cannot change your mind, you cannot choose a different path, you will live and do as god has already foreseen you do, that doesn't sound like free will, more like destiny or fulfillment of a predetermined life.

The second issue I have with free will is that god knows whether you will be worthy of heaven or hell by the choices you make in life before he creates you. This means that he creates an individual with the knowledge they will be damned, that doesn't sound like a loving creator to me. Maybe I'm missing something or you can clarify this belief.


Great questions and really you are hitting on a giant tension within Christianity. How much is under God's control and how much is under our control? I can't answer you totally. The question about God knowing the future and thus our actions are predetermined can possibly be "answered" (probably not the best word) by going back to my idea that God transcends time. From his vantage he can see all time like a plane spread out before him. It's possible, with regard to the future, he can see all futures. In other words, the future is not set but he knows all outcomes. Really the reality is our minds are not properly equipped to fathom such things. So one could come up with a synthesis of free will and God's sovereignty where we are free to make decisions but God is able (and does) nudge the future, as a whole, to conform with his will.

The second question, is another great one and one, like others, that you can take solace in by knowing it's been asked since Christianity's inception. Paul, when addressing this very question gives this rhetorical argument: (I'll give it to you in paraphrase again. If you want a more literal english translation, search for "Romans 9" and "NIV".) I will fully admit this is one of the "pointy" parts of Christianity and one many people cannot get over. But once again, grown-up religions have hard parts. Baby-religions are all warm fuzzies and feel-good.

Paul writes:
Is that grounds for complaining that God is unfair? Not so fast, please. God told Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion." Compassion doesn't originate in our bleeding hearts or moral sweat, but in God's mercy. The same point was made when God said to Pharaoh, "I picked you as a bit player in this drama of my salvation power." All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill.

Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?"

Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right? Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people. Hosea put it well:

I'll call nobodies and make them somebodies;
I'll call the unloved and make them beloved.
In the place where they yelled out, "You're nobody!"
they're calling you "God's living children."


If it's all God's decision, what's the point?

What is the motivation to work, to excel, to get out of bed in the morning?
01/18/2009 03:58:44 PM · #170
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

If it's all God's decision, what's the point?

What is the motivation to work, to excel, to get out of bed in the morning?


Because every morning we as Christians get out of bed and go to work/school/etc., we have opportunities before us to share the Good News with others. It's the The Great Commission. :)
01/18/2009 04:18:45 PM · #171
Originally posted by L1:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

If it's all God's decision, what's the point?

What is the motivation to work, to excel, to get out of bed in the morning?


Because every morning we as Christians get out of bed and go to work/school/etc., we have opportunities before us to share the Good News with others. It's the The Great Commission. :)


No offense as I'm probably not understanding this correctly but this kind of sounds like a pyramid scheme to me. There's no reason to get out of bed except to tell others there is no reason to get out of bed except of course to go tell others the same thing.

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 18:26:44.
01/18/2009 04:40:59 PM · #172
Ok, a decent well thought out explanation for the first question though I don't think I can buy it. Essentially you are saying that god does not know the future, he only knows any infinite number of futures that may be, which have not yet been decided. Your answer would mean that if I ask god a question about the future he could not give me a specific answer, he does not know yet. Sure he may know it's one of the infinite amount of futures he has foreseen but he can't tell me which one it is, that doesn't seem like an omniscient being to me.

This brings me to another contradiction with Christianity and free will,as well as your first answer, the prophecy of the son of god, his betrayal, crucifixion and his resurrection. This was all part of god's plan, Jesus even asked his father in the Gestheme Garden if he had to go through with this, to which he already knew the answer, yes because it is fulfillment of the scripture. This means that god made these individuals betray Jesus and crucify him, that's not free will, this was a predetermined destiny for these people. There was no way for this not to happen since this was the prophecy, this was god's will, this is what had to happen. Now I noticed that you used the word nudge, how much is nudge? I would say that the betrayal, the beating and the nailing him on the cross is a bit more than a nudge, that's outright controlling the actions of others, hence no free will, at least in this case.

As for your second answer I don't think that really answers my question, it's kind of a copout( for lack of a more respectable term). First, in response to the scripture, I would have responded to the question Who am I to question God?, I'm god's creation, I'm molded in his likeness, he designed me to be inquisitive, to be curious, to wonder.. that's who I am. If I made a pot with a fully functional brain and vocal cords I would expect that pot to ask me why I made it to hold flowers and not pork and beans, not to scold it or play it off. None of this scripture answers the question of why god would create an individual with the knowledge that it would spend an eternity in hell(that is if you believe that god does no the true future). Now you can say that some things are beyond our comprehension but that just seems a bit of way to deflect a tough question that possibly rips a hole in faith, a we don't know why god does some of the things he does but he has his reasons and they are beyond us, let's move on. Why ask or answer and questions about god or religion and just get straight to the point, we don't understand so let's just have faith. Your thoughts?

01/18/2009 04:41:10 PM · #173
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Great questions and really you are hitting on a giant tension within Christianity. How much is under God's control and how much is under our control? I can't answer you totally. The question about God knowing the future and thus our actions are predetermined can possibly be "answered" (probably not the best word) by going back to my idea that God transcends time. From his vantage he can see all time like a plane spread out before him. It's possible, with regard to the future, he can see all futures. In other words, the future is not set but he knows all outcomes. Really the reality is our minds are not properly equipped to fathom such things. So one could come up with a synthesis of free will and God's sovereignty where we are free to make decisions but God is able (and does) nudge the future, as a whole, to conform with his will.

The second question, is another great one and one, like others, that you can take solace in by knowing it's been asked since Christianity's inception. Paul, when addressing this very question gives this rhetorical argument: (I'll give it to you in paraphrase again. If you want a more literal english translation, search for "Romans 9" and "NIV".) I will fully admit this is one of the "pointy" parts of Christianity and one many people cannot get over. But once again, grown-up religions have hard parts. Baby-religions are all warm fuzzies and feel-good.


Why do you choose to believe all of this? You say in one breath that our minds cannot fathom such things but it's clear your mind tries to. Why is that? Clearly you've thought about it to offer up this possible explanation so it sounds like it's important to you but to me it comes across as one leap of faith resting on top of another one. How can you justify that while refusing to take any leap of faith in these other baby religions you mentioned? You dismiss them out of hand just because they are warm and fuzzy? I'm sure that's how Christianity was 2000 years ago. Besides, if you really want something with lots of hard parts than try not believing. Now that's a challenge. :)
01/18/2009 04:52:46 PM · #174
Just out of curiousity, what the heck is a baby-religion?
01/18/2009 05:37:49 PM · #175
Originally posted by Melethia:

Just out of curiousity, what the heck is a baby-religion?


I think it's when god is just a baby, its religion is called that. I believe when you pray you must talk in tongue (i.e. baby talk). I could be wrong.

Message edited by author 2009-01-18 17:38:34.
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