?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

05/22/2013 10:07:42 PM · #1701

That's good stuff Brennan and could either be part of the scripture topic or might even come under its own topic which is the tension of paradox found within Christianity (which drives some people crazy). What does one do with paradox? Is it ok to be ok with paradox? Why would it be this way?

BTW, your two examples are only superficially paradoxical, but some REAL paradoxes do exist (Jesus is both fully human and fully God being a prime example).

Message edited by author 2013-05-22 22:08:02.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

05/22/2013 10:09:14 PM · #1702

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You could use teaching since its done in the same way parents teach anything else to young children. We either indoctrinate them in everything from not hitting your sister to tying your shoes, or we indoctrinate them in nothing. It's just an inflammatory word and I'm pretty sure you know that.

Indoctrinating your sister to tie their shoes helps her to not trip and fall. What does "teaching" a child that Jesus is your lord and savior and adhere to rituals accomplish?

ETA: I miss-read your example so just ignore. If I find a softball I'll be sure to pass it along. :)

Message edited by author 2013-05-22 22:15:53.

05/22/2013 10:15:58 PM · #1703

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Hmm.

I think that if we can indoctrinate a child to tie their shoes, then we can most certainly ride our car to the store, and we can steal some stuff while we're there by paying for it.

Sure, you can ignore the real meaning of the word all you want, doesn't change the fact that the definition of indoctrination is exactly what religions do to children.

Originally posted by Dictionary:

in·doc·tri·nate (n-dktr-nt)
tr.v. in·doc·tri·nat·ed, in·doc·tri·nat·ing, in·doc·tri·nates
1. To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.
2. To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view: a generation of children who had been indoctrinated against the values of their parents.
in·doctri·nation n.

Now, last time I checked, while tying one's shoes is admittedly important, I don't think we can quite elevate it to the status of "a body of doctrine or principles", nor do I find tying shoes particularly ideological.

05/22/2013 10:17:39 PM · #1704

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You could use teaching since its done in the same way parents teach anything else to young children. We either indoctrinate them in everything from not hitting your sister to tying your shoes, or we indoctrinate them in nothing. It's just an inflammatory word and I'm pretty sure you know that.

Indoctrinating your sister to tie their shoes helps her to not trip and fall. What does "teaching" a child that Jesus is your lord and savior and adhere to rituals accomplish?

Eternal rewards? :P

Honestly I can see where you are coming from with the question though because you have neither religion nor children. I'm guessing both represent huge black boxes to you.

05/22/2013 10:19:54 PM · #1705

Here's what google gives me Cory...Verb
Teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically: "broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses".

Young children have very limited ability at critical thinking and, thus, everything is indoctrination in that regard.

05/22/2013 10:19:59 PM · #1706

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Eternal rewards? :P

Honestly I can see where you are coming from with the question though because you have neither religion nor children. I'm guessing both represent huge black boxes to you.

Oh, nice dude. He's not a Christian, and doesn't have kids, so his viewpoint is invalidated? Awesome.

05/22/2013 10:20:38 PM · #1707

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'd suggest a dictionary instead of Google. Using a search engine to teach you English might be hazardous.

05/22/2013 10:22:22 PM · #1708

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Young children have very limited ability at critical thinking and, thus, everything is indoctrination in that regard.

Yeah, here's a thought - why not teach them to think critically, instead of taking advantage of their innocence and programming them to accept fantasy as a substitute for reality?

05/22/2013 10:24:31 PM · #1709

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Young children have very limited ability at critical thinking and, thus, everything is indoctrination in that regard.

Yeah, here's a thought - why not teach them to think critically, instead of taking advantage of their innocence and programming them to accept fantasy as a substitute for reality?

Hehe. You don't have kids either do you?

Btw, google understands that when you put in one word you often want a definition. Google doesn't make them up. Google gets them from dictionaries. Google also doesn't hunt and choose definitions. Google does what google does and comes up with the most popular definition.

05/22/2013 10:25:31 PM · #1710

Ok. Well, I'm impressed this lasted for most of a day. I did get some good avenues to explore. If anybody is in the area in September you are welcome to stop by and see how things go. :)

05/22/2013 10:26:31 PM · #1711

By the way, the Westboro's new website just got a very nice update, courtesy of Jester.

Message edited by author 2013-05-22 22:27:29.

05/22/2013 10:28:33 PM · #1712

Originally posted by Cory:

By the way, the Westboro website just got a very nice update, courtesy of Jester.

Haha. That's pretty funny. Hopefully it doesn't wind up with more money somehow in their coffers. Screwing with a bunch of lawyers is sometimes a risky proposition.

05/22/2013 10:29:51 PM · #1713

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Young children have very limited ability at critical thinking and, thus, everything is indoctrination in that regard.

Yeah, here's a thought - why not teach them to think critically, instead of taking advantage of their innocence and programming them to accept fantasy as a substitute for reality?

Hehe. You don't have kids either do you?

Btw, google understands that when you put in one word you often want a definition. Google doesn't make them up. Google gets them from dictionaries. Google also doesn't hunt and choose definitions. Google does what google does and comes up with the most popular definition.

Of course I don't. And that's no justification to invalidate my position on this. Kids are smart, much smarter than you're giving them credit for.

Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems like the kids I grew up with were a hell of a lot more savvy than the kids that lived in the nicer parts of town, I wonder if there might be something in the environment there that creates kids who think critically sooner?

05/22/2013 10:35:42 PM · #1714

Actually Cory, if you ask any parent this will be one situation where you are quite invalidated. :). Nobody raising children seeks advice from people who have never had kids.

BTW, I got this from the Google website. I'll let you apply your critical thinking when deciding whether its a valid source. Google's English dictionary switched from the Collins COBUILD Advanced Learner's English Dictionary to the Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English. The definitions from the Collins dictionary are easier to understand, while the Oxford dictionary is more traditional.

05/22/2013 10:40:37 PM · #1715

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I find it convienient that you chose an unusual definition that foregoes the usual nod to the connotations of the word. Pocket dictionary?

In any case, you, as a parent, are free to think your children are as stupid as you wish. I'm certain they're fully indoctrinated, so it's unlikely you'll need to worry about critical thought anytime soon.

As for me? I can assure you that if/when I have children, they will be educated, not indoctrinated - critical thought isn't beyond the abilities of children - of course, neither is coal mining, or farm work, or any one of a hundred other things that children used to be expected to do.

Message edited by author 2013-05-22 22:41:51.

05/22/2013 10:54:01 PM · #1716

What age kid do you think we're talking about? When do you think parents start trying to teach their kids things?

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

05/22/2013 11:15:45 PM · #1717

Now that I'm at a keyboard I'll back up and explain my comment to Richard a bit better (though he's probably long gone). By saying his question makes sense because he has neither "religion nor children" I mainly mean two things:

1) People who do not subscribe to a particular religion are much less likely to view any specific religion as having intrinsic value. To change religions might be no more important than changing clothes. People who do subscribe to a particular religion typically do it because they view their faith as containing and representing truth. When Richard asks why teach "one specific religion" the answer to people within a religion is obvious: "to teach truth about the world".

2) People without children may not understanding the strong parental desire to teach their children truths about the world as they see it. Those with kids do not see it as reasonable, when it comes to important things, to either teach their kids with an agnostic approach to "the truth" or to wait until they are fully capable of critical thought. For example, one would not leave it up to your child to determine for herself what is right and wrong action. That is taught; and taught early. "Don't hit your sister." comes when they are barely a year (or even earlier). We do not wait for little Caden to decide the pros and cons of hitting Laine and make up his own mind about it. Hitting is wrong. Full stop.

So, my comment to Richard was not meant as an insult, but really was saying, "I get your question, but it only makes sense if you don't have kids and don't have faith." The people I will be interacting with won't likely be similar in this regard.

Message edited by author 2013-05-22 23:17:55.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

05/22/2013 11:18:28 PM · #1718

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Ok. Well, I'm impressed this lasted for most of a day. I did get some good avenues to explore. If anybody is in the area in September you are welcome to stop by and see how things go. :)

Is there anything stopping you from recording it? I'm sure everyone in rant is just dying to hear you answer the tough questions after all these years!

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

05/22/2013 11:19:18 PM · #1719

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ok. Well, I'm impressed this lasted for most of a day. I did get some good avenues to explore. If anybody is in the area in September you are welcome to stop by and see how things go. :)

Is there anything stopping you from recording it? I'm sure everyone in rant is just dying to hear you answer the tough questions after all these years!

Huh. Never thought about it, but possibly. Just for you though, big guy. :)

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

05/22/2013 11:56:22 PM · #1720

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

1) Except that isnt an answer to why Chrisitanity? In other words, why is that held to be true over others claiming competing "truths"? Your answer doesn't address this.

2) what you describe is indoctrination, which doesn't in of itself suggest anything negative. Whether it is or isn't is wholly dependent on what is being indoctrinated and the method in which it is being carried out. It would be best IMO , if we limited ourselves to preaching just the ideals that can stand on its own merits without having to appeal to a higher power for justification. There are plenty of things in the Bible worth promoting that don't need that.

Message edited by author 2013-05-22 23:58:45.