?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

04/09/2011 12:29:34 PM · #1551

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Kelli:
Have you ever seen what's left after they explode? ;P

Not personally (grin), but the results are very much adequately determined by the event even if the motion of individual particles are random or unknown. Any victims certainly wouldn't have been vaporized by random chance!

Sure they would. You set the geiger counter as the trigger with a chip that is programmed to fire the bomb if there are say three clicks within 10 microseconds (you will have determined what an average is and picked some requirement that is outside say the 98th or 99th perecentile). This means that the exact time the bomb detonates could be minutes, hours, or even days different which is determined randomly. While the bomb is waiting to go off, cause-event chains are entering and exiting the sphere of potential destruction. The cause-event chains that lose the game of nuclear musical chairs when the bomb detonates are altered forever. The random part is WHICH chains are altered and this is not determined and not accounted for by adequate determinisim.

04/09/2011 03:20:57 PM · #1552

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The random part is WHICH chains are altered and this is not determined and not accounted for by adequate determinisim.

Actually, that's exactly what it accounts for!

"Even in a world with chance, macroscopic objects are determined to an extraordinary degree. Newton's laws of motion are deterministic enough to send men to the moon and back. Our Cogito model of the Macro Mind is large enough to ignore quantum uncertainty for the purpose of the reasoning will. The neural system is robust enough to insure that mental decisions are reliably transmitted to our limbs. We call this determinism, limited as it is in extremely small structures, "adequate determinism."

"The presence of quantum uncertainty leads some philosophers to call the world indetermined. But indeterminism is misleading, with strong negative connotations, when most events are overwhelmingly "adequately determined.""

There is no problem imagining that the three traditional mental faculties of reason - perception, conception, and comprehension - are all carried on deterministically in a physical brain where quantum events do not interfere with normal operations. There is also no problem imagining a role for chance in the brain in the form of quantum level noise. Noise can introduce random errors into stored memories. Noise could create random associations of ideas during memory recall. This randomness may be driven by microscopic fluctuations that are amplified to the macroscopic level."

What you're trying to do is ascribe both "free" AND "will" to a non-deterministic mechanism, and that's simply not possible for reasons already discussed: non-determined = random, and you can't wring intent out of randomness. It would be like trying to glean focused decisions or morality from the random, incoherent images of a dream. Quantum events might introduce some variation in thought processes (analogous to subatomic collisions creating genetic variations for evolution to operate upon), but adding a natural cause for random variation doesn't get you any closer to a supernatural spirit directing the show.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/09/2011 03:32:37 PM · #1553

1) Are you admitting the nuclear bomb is a massive amplifier for the quantum fluctations? You dropped talking about it and that usually means you don't have a rebuttal.

2) If you can't wring intent out of randomness, aren't we in trouble? In a similar manner, can you wring rationality out of randomness? We have just deduced that the universe, at its fundamental levels is random, be it from quantum fluctuations in the present or the mother-of-all-fluctuations the Big Bang.

3) Your clause "natural cause for random variations" makes no sense. I thought the random variations had no cause. Why are you saying they now do and what makes you so sure they are natural since, at best, they are unknown?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

04/09/2011 06:21:55 PM · #1554

Originally posted by scalvert:

[i]"The presence of quantum uncertainty leads some philosophers to call the world indetermined. But indeterminism is misleading, with strong negative connotations, when most events are overwhelmingly "adequately determined.""

A joke I heard the other day ...

A cop pulls Werner Heisenberg over for speeding. "Do you know how fast you were going?" he demands.

"No," replies the physicist, "but I know exactly where I am."

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

04/09/2011 07:29:56 PM · #1555

LOL. Thanks Paul. That was good.

spiritualspatula

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

04/13/2011 05:00:14 AM · #1556

Here's a question, and it's totally just a personal question, out of my own curiosity. No pitchforks or semantics needed here.

If, hypothetically, it was ascertained that there was in fact no God, would you still practice? Yes, no, and why?

04/13/2011 09:11:20 AM · #1557

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Christian #5 here. Short answer: No. What would be the point of practicing?

Longer answers, please see previous post.

I think you ask the wrong question though. It can be shown through logic, that there exists an outside something that created the universe. The real question is, "If it was ascertained that the God you believed in wasn't this something that created the universe, would you still practice?"

My answer, yes. I would change views in half of a heart beat.

04/13/2011 10:33:50 AM · #1558

Originally posted by Nullix:

It can be shown through logic, that there exists an outside something that created the universe.

Then show it.

04/13/2011 11:17:02 AM · #1559

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

"if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." I Corinthians 15

It probably hinges on what you mean by "practice" though. Still, I would cease to be a Christian.

04/13/2011 01:04:55 PM · #1560

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Nullix:
It can be shown through logic, that there exists an outside something that created the universe.

Then show it.

04/13/2011 03:02:39 PM · #1561

Shall I debunk all 20, or do you have a favorite?

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

04/13/2011 03:38:13 PM · #1562

Originally posted by scalvert:

Shall I debunk all 20, or do you have a favorite?

The one wearing the fools cap is going to debunk 20 proofs for God. I'd rather you explain to me how you can go on living if a God doesn't exist. Some better proof than (your post):
to live
to view a sunset
to laugh and play
to dream
to feel loved
to experience happiness

You made and attempt with this post, but it confuses our whole point. In one post you say to enjoy the moment, in another post you say the moments since we die. What's the point of enjoying the moment, when we'll die?

If you are able to debunk 20 proofs of God, I'll give it all up. I'll even send you my rosary.

BTW, my favorite is #17

Originally posted by 17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience:

There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
Therefore there must be a God.

You either see this one or you don't.

It's not my favorite because it's the best proof, it's my favorite due to simplicity along with the "You either see this one or you don't."

K3Master

Pentax K-3

04/13/2011 04:34:51 PM · #1563

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by scalvert:
Shall I debunk all 20, or do you have a favorite?

The one wearing the fools cap is going to debunk 20 proofs for God. I'd rather you explain to me how you can go on living if a God doesn't exist. Some better proof than (your post):
to live
to view a sunset
to laugh and play
to dream
to feel loved
to experience happiness

You made and attempt with this post, but it confuses our whole point. In one post you say to enjoy the moment, in another post you say the moments since we die. What's the point of enjoying the moment, when we'll die?

If you are able to debunk 20 proofs of God, I'll give it all up. I'll even send you my rosary.

BTW, my favorite is #17
Originally posted by 17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience:

There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
Therefore there must be a God.

You either see this one or you don't.

It's not my favorite because it's the best proof, it's my favorite due to simplicity along with the "You either see this one or you don't."

This is kind of like proving unicorns exist because there are rainbows.

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

04/13/2011 05:15:04 PM · #1564

Originally posted by Nullix:

What's the point of enjoying the moment, when we'll die?

Everything will die eventually. In about 5 billion years the sun will run out of fuel, turn into a red giant, and engulf the earth.

So at that point the supply of fresh souls into heaven stops. For the next few billion years the souls that did make it into heaven during the short window of opportunity of the existence of humanity get to observe the death of the solar system and the galaxy.

Depending on which theory you subscribe to, the universe will either crunch back into a singularity or dissipate so thinly that energy will reduce to zero in heat death. Either way, it ends up where it started, at nothing.

Now, do you really think that the fleeting blink of existence of humans was so important to a creator that he needs to preserve our consciousness somewhere outside of this so we can witness the collapse of one universe and the birth of the next (or whatever happens) ad infinitum?

And why should he? Some percentage of an immoral and imperfect species living on one of his rocks wrote a book and built some churches in his honour, so he rewards them by giving them a ringside seat in heaven and letting them meet their dead relatives?

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

04/13/2011 05:33:59 PM · #1565

Originally posted by Nullix:

BTW, my favorite is #17
Originally posted by 17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience:

There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
Therefore there must be a God.

You either see this one or you don't.

It's not my favorite because it's the best proof, it's my favorite due to simplicity along with the "You either see this one or you don't."

...and Descartes said: "Je pense donc je suis"... surely that statement by itself is also bona fide evidence of the existence of God...right?

Ray

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

04/13/2011 05:34:05 PM · #1566

Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by Nullix:
What's the point of enjoying the moment, when we'll die?

Everything will die eventually. In about 5 billion years the sun will run out of fuel, turn into a red giant, and engulf the earth.

So at that point the supply of fresh souls into heaven stops. For the next few billion years the souls that did make it into heaven during the short window of opportunity of the existence of humanity get to observe the death of the solar system and the galaxy.

Depending on which theory you subscribe to, the universe will either crunch back into a singularity or dissipate so thinly that energy will reduce to zero in heat death. Either way, it ends up where it started, at nothing.

Now, do you really think that the fleeting blink of existence of humans was so important to a creator that he needs to preserve our consciousness somewhere outside of this so we can witness the collapse of one universe and the birth of the next (or whatever happens) ad infinitum?

And why should he? Some percentage of an immoral and imperfect species living on one of his rocks wrote a book and built some churches in his honour, so he rewards them by giving them a ringside seat in heaven and letting them meet their dead relatives?

So...What is the point of enjoying the moment when all the energy of the universe will dissipate in death or crunched together?

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/13/2011 05:38:56 PM · #1567

Originally posted by Nullix:

So...What is the point of enjoying the moment when all the energy of the universe will dissipate in death or crunched together?

The point is that you have or should have had the opportunity to have a wonderful life, experienced all types of scenarios, enjoyed the company of others, and imparted wisdom and morals to your progeny... and have done all of these things without the fear of eternal damnation.

Ray

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

Canon FD 70-210mm �4.0 MF

04/13/2011 05:40:29 PM · #1568

Originally posted by Nullix:

What's the point of enjoying the moment, when we'll die?

And thus, the complete moral, philosophical and aesthetic bankruptcy of the religious mindset is succinctly demonstrated.

You either see this, or you don't.

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

04/13/2011 05:45:57 PM · #1569

Originally posted by Nullix:

So...What is the point of enjoying the moment when all the energy of the universe will dissipate in death or crunched together?

Why not enjoy it? Let's look at the options;

1) We're going to die anyway, so why not short-cut it by committing suicide. Well, a) I don't have the guts and b) I don't want my family to suffer the aftermath.

2) Life my life barely existing, waiting until I die. Sure, I could do that, but that's boring - where's the fun?

or

3) Live life, and enjoy it - try everything at least once. Enjoy the buzz of adrenalin, and all the other great chemicals your brain can throw at you. At least when you're sitting in the nursing home you'll feel as if you did something worthwhile with your few decades on earth.

Message edited by author 2011-04-13 17:47:01.

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

04/13/2011 06:01:53 PM · #1570

Originally posted by JH:

I would hope the answer to life is more than "Why not?"

A better answer would be 42

I'll have to keep on asking (like a little kid), Why?
(and BECAUSE isn't an answer)

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

04/13/2011 06:14:13 PM · #1571

Originally posted by JH:

At least when you're sitting in the nursing home you'll feel as if you did something worthwhile with your few decades on earth.

But those who have faith DO believe their lives have had meaning, that their time on earth was worthwhile, that there was some purpose served by it all. Why are some of you fighting so hard to take this away from our faith-full individuals?

R.

04/13/2011 06:40:10 PM · #1572

Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by Nullix:
So...What is the point of enjoying the moment when all the energy of the universe will dissipate in death or crunched together?

Why not enjoy it? Let's look at the options;

1) We're going to die anyway, so why not short-cut it by committing suicide. Well, a) I don't have the guts and b) I don't want my family to suffer the aftermath.

The French Existentialists took this exact tack. Albert Camus famously claimed "there is only one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide."

04/13/2011 06:42:56 PM · #1573

Originally posted by Nullix:

If you are able to debunk 20 proofs of God, I'll give it all up. I'll even send you my rosary.

Bull. You'd sooner give up oxygen.

Originally posted by Nullix:

The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach.
Therefore there must be a God.

There is the music of Roseanne Barr. Therefore your proof is irrational.

04/13/2011 06:47:40 PM · #1574

Originally posted by Nullix:

What is the point of enjoying the moment when all the energy of the universe will dissipate in death or crunched together?

You demand a purpose, but haven't shown that any purpose is necessary. What is the point of a star exploding in some remote part of the universe?