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01/15/2009 09:58:35 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Adult conversions can also be linked to a person's environment, so the factor of age alone is immaterial. Religious distribution by region is far more compelling in this regard. You may know lots of people who came to faith as adults, but how many of them came to embrace Islamic faith or Hindu faith? If we were in Iran or India you would have seen many such non-Christian conversions around you. As an American you will probably see more conversions towards Christianity.
Aren't the odds really in favor of humans generally imitating the beliefs of the community around them? You can say this is God's super mysterious paradigm and not a problem for finite mortals to deal with or explain, but a skeptic like me just hears that as a cop out to a seriously problematic issue for religions. |
You didn't read the rest of the post you quoted. I spoke to that. That and the fact I pointed out that one is always in an environment so it would be impossible to show the environment was not a factor.
Message edited by author 2009-01-15 21:59:43. |
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01/15/2009 10:01:42 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by crayon:
how do you differentiate between a religious nutcase and the one who is not? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Foaming at the mouth. |
Originally posted by crayon:
i dont think you are being serious with your answer here. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
No. I'm serious. If you see foaming at the mouth you need to back away quickly.
I'm not sure a question is serious that involves the word "nutcase"... |
Having worked as a Silent Witness at a gay pride festival, I have seen street preachers foam at the mouth.
There's a regular who trolls the area who gets so wound up he loses control of his speech and movements so that he twitches, thrashes, and makes unintelligible noises when he gets too wound up. He's been taggeed with the moniker, "Twitchy".
DEFINITELY a nutcase! |
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01/15/2009 10:06:25 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
With regard to Salvation, there is no other correct action. With regard to living on earth, there are plenty. We bother with the ten commandments and the like because a) we love God and b) they generally lead to a good life. |
So where does judgement fit in? Why will Jesus sit in judgement of everyone? Why will those who act a certain way (Matthew 25:31-46; Matthew 19:28-30) go to heaven and those who don't won't? And why must we forgive to gain entrance into heaven( Matthew 6:14-15). And repent our sins - if we are not required to be good, why are we required to repent? (Acts 2:38) Of course, it could be said that deeds too must be good (James 2:24). anyway, I could go on, but there is a repeated theme in the Bible, new testament, with regard to how one should act (treat your neighbor) and how one will be regarded (judge not). While it is easy to state that christianity requires nothing for salvation other than faith, it is just as easy to state that many other religions don't require salvation. This renders your statement with regard to choosing christianity moot.
As for correct actions living on earth, they only exist in so much as they are required for mutual benefit - there is, according to you, no religious requirement within christianity for it. Love for God has nothing to do with it, as you pointed out, because there is no requirement for it to gain entrance into heaven. It is not true that correct action leads to a good life - there is no relation. Hence the question, "How could God let that happen to such a good person?"
My point here is that christianity requires much more than just faith in Jesus - regardless of whether salvation does (which is arguable just by reading the bible). Salvation is only one aspect of christianity, just as meditation is only one aspect of Buddhism. your simplification of not just christianity, but all religions, down to a simple matter of the easiest path to salvation, misses the point I think, of the purpose for the existence of the religions in the first place.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Heaven is special not because we are there, but because God is there. However, despite the seemingly easy requirements, there will be lots of people missing because it's actually quite hard to give up our Pride and admit we need help. |
You and I have conflicting views of 'heaven' and how to attain it so I will just skip this response.
Interesting discussion, but I think you overstepped yourself, or maybe just iced it over a little too quickly for my satisfaction. I still don't think you provided an adequate explanation of 'the uniqueness' of christianity. |
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01/15/2009 10:15:51 PM · #79 |
Please couls someone explain what 'Zion' is to me?
I know its a mountain, but it seems to go further than that! |
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01/15/2009 11:01:05 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
With regard to Salvation, there is no other correct action. With regard to living on earth, there are plenty. We bother with the ten commandments and the like because a) we love God and b) they generally lead to a good life.
So where does judgement fit in? Why will Jesus sit in judgement of everyone? Why will those who act a certain way (Matthew 25:31-46; Matthew 19:28-30) go to heaven and those who don't won't? And why must we forgive to gain entrance into heaven( Matthew 6:14-15). And repent our sins - if we are not required to be good, why are we required to repent? (Acts 2:38) Of course, it could be said that deeds too must be good (James 2:24). anyway, I could go on, but there is a repeated theme in the Bible, new testament, with regard to how one should act (treat your neighbor) and how one will be regarded (judge not). While it is easy to state that christianity requires nothing for salvation other than faith, it is just as easy to state that many other religions don't require salvation. This renders your statement with regard to choosing christianity moot.
As for correct actions living on earth, they only exist in so much as they are required for mutual benefit - there is, according to you, no religious requirement within christianity for it. Love for God has nothing to do with it, as you pointed out, because there is no requirement for it to gain entrance into heaven. It is not true that correct action leads to a good life - there is no relation. Hence the question, "How could God let that happen to such a good person?"
My point here is that christianity requires much more than just faith in Jesus - regardless of whether salvation does (which is arguable just by reading the bible). Salvation is only one aspect of christianity, just as meditation is only one aspect of Buddhism. your simplification of not just christianity, but all religions, down to a simple matter of the easiest path to salvation, misses the point I think, of the purpose for the existence of the religions in the first place.
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Not bad. But I think you miss the point. Salvation is only one aspect of Christianity in the same way hitting nails is only one aspect of a hammer (ie, it's the obvious and main aspect). To deny this is, I think, to be divorced from reality. However, I agree the Christian life goes far beyond just faith. There is a code of conduct that is given. Christianity IS, however, unique in that this code is separated from Salvation. Let's view the other religions:
Islam - quoting the Qur'an (Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the Sabians; anyone who (1) believes in God, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.)
Hinduism - (this is from wiki) Moksha is achieved when the individual Atman unites with the ground of all being - the source of all phenomenal existence — Brahman through practice of Yoga. Hinduism recognizes several paths to achieve this goal, none of which is exclusive. The paths are the way of selfless work (Karma Yoga), of self-dissolving love (Bhakti Yoga), of absolute discernment & knowledge (Jnana Yoga) or of 'royal' meditative immersion (Raja Yoga).
Buddhism - Nirvana is attained through following the Noble Eightfold Path.
Jainism - Moska can be attained "with right faith, knowledge and efforts." (quoting wiki again)
Sikhism - Salvation can be reached only through rigorous and disciplined devotion to God. (quoting wiki)
I will agree that Taoism doesn't have a similar concept of "salvation". Taoism and Shintoism are often thought of as Codes of Conduct rather than religions. Perhaps that's splitting hairs, but we can perhaps put aside religions that don't have the concept of salvation or an afterlife in a coversation about such things.
Finally I think it's silly to say "love for God" has nothing to do with it because it's not required. Isn't that the very definition of love? To do something out of devotion rather than requirement?
Message edited by author 2009-01-15 23:10:30. |
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01/15/2009 11:09:48 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by Zodiac:
Please couls someone explain what 'Zion' is to me?
I know its a mountain, but it seems to go further than that! |
Zion was a term in the Old Testament used to refer to either Israel or more specifically Jerusalem. It was most often invoked when speaking of a future when they are restored. Zion then represents the hope of one day having things put back in proper order with God reigning on earth. |
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01/15/2009 11:10:55 PM · #82 |
| OK, that's enough for today. I'm bushed. :) |
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01/16/2009 03:38:25 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Could you give me an example of a decision that would be devoid of influence by experience? Decisions based on the scientific method? |
You don't think a decision regarding the same question asked in 1815 and 1915 based on the scientific method wouldn't be different? |
The answer might change but not the method for achieving it. The point is the validity of the method is unchanged regardless of the answer. If I took a test and failed with a 55 but got the rules changed so that a 55 is a passing mark, I wouldn't be smarter but I may be happier. Much like the adult who converts to religion due to a need to believe and rigs the game (or has the game rigged for them due to unfortunate events) to produce a desired result.
Message edited by author 2009-01-16 05:58:39. |
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01/16/2009 06:03:50 AM · #84 |
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01/16/2009 07:14:12 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Not bad. But I think you miss the point. Salvation is only one aspect of Christianity in the same way hitting nails is only one aspect of a hammer (ie, it's the obvious and main aspect). |
That is exactly what I stated to you - that you are over simplifying christianity and, in turn, the other religions. So I didn't miss your point, you missed mine.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
To deny this is, I think, to be divorced from reality. However, I agree the Christian life goes far beyond just faith. There is a code of conduct that is given. Christianity IS, however, unique in that this code is separated from Salvation. |
So, lets really simplify this:
Christianity (according to Achoo): If you believe in Jesus, he will save you.
Most other religions (according to Achoo): If you act according to the dictates of the religion, you will save yourself.
Is that fair?
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01/16/2009 08:27:29 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
[quote=DrAchoo]
Christianity (according to Achoo): If you believe in Jesus, he will save you. |
Its not that you believe in Jesus was a living person in history, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept him as your Savior, before you are saved. |
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01/16/2009 08:35:51 AM · #87 |
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01/16/2009 08:36:41 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Originally posted by dahkota:
[quote=DrAchoo]
Christianity (according to Achoo): If you believe in Jesus, he will save you. |
Its not that you believe in Jesus was a living person in history, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept him as your Savior, before you are saved. |
Saved from what?
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01/16/2009 08:47:49 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Its not that you believe in Jesus was a living person in history, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept him as your Savior, before you are saved. |
That is a given - we aren't arguing Jesus's existence, we are discussing salvation and what it requires.
Originally posted by JH:
Saved from what? |
Achoo states that he finds the salvation possible in christianity to be the best - it requires nothing but faith in Jesus. I think, in christianity, salvation, being saved, is essentially 'being with God' after death, being 'saved' from eternal damnation. But I could be wrong. I find the whole topic fascinating, and am trying to get a handle on what it involves. |
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01/16/2009 09:12:32 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by JH:
Saved from what? |
Achoo states that he finds the salvation possible in christianity to be the best - it requires nothing but faith in Jesus. I think, in christianity, salvation, being saved, is essentially 'being with God' after death, being 'saved' from eternal damnation. But I could be wrong. I find the whole topic fascinating, and am trying to get a handle on what it involves. |
I'm quite happy not to exist after my death. So I don't want to be saved! - (What a relief, it means I get a lie-in on Sundays) |
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01/16/2009 09:14:54 AM · #91 |
QUESTION:
If you put a Christian and a non-Christian in the Octagon, how many rounds would it last, who would win, and how?
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01/16/2009 09:28:46 AM · #92 |
Serious Question.
So who are right? Muslims or Christians? I know you all worship a "God" and I think I read somewhere that its the same "God", its just everyone seems to think he says something different.. so, who is right?
Slightly non-serious question - what happened to all the cool Gods like Thor, Loki,Odin, Heimdell etc... and even the Greek gods like Zeus, Athena and so on..
Or were they all made up by people believing in a non existent entity linking events in the real-world to acts that their God had performed in the hope that there was a higher being in control of everything that happened.
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01/16/2009 09:32:52 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by Simms:
So who are right? Muslims or Christians? |
Hmmmm...how about neither? At least, according to my religion. :P |
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01/16/2009 10:03:43 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Serious Question.
So who are right? Muslims or Christians? I know you all worship a "God" and I think I read somewhere that its the same "God", its just everyone seems to think he says something different.. so, who is right? |
Would you expect a Christian to say that the Muslims are right?
Would you expect a Muslim to say that the Christians are right?
Would you expect an atheist to say that the deists are right?
Would you expect a deist to say that the atheists are right?
Would you expect a Baptist to say that the Catholics are right?
Would you expect a Catholic to say that the Baptists are right?
After all is said and done, you will ultimately find that there are only TWO types of people in the world when it comes to belief in God, belief in salvation, or belief in religious doctrine: those who think that THEY are right.
And, ultimately, you will either find out whether you were right ( enough ) or not when you die, or you will NOT find out - but either way, you won't live to share your findings with those you leave behind, and after you die it will be too late to change your mind - the die will have already been cast. |
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01/16/2009 10:14:53 AM · #95 |
I'm content to just be worm food when I die.
Life dragging on eternally seems like more of a punishment than a reward. |
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01/16/2009 10:41:30 AM · #96 |
speaking of worm food, what do many of you feel regarding:
reincarnation?
donating your body to science postmortem?
cremation?
My entire family knows that I want my body donated to science, because I would hope it helps a doctor or scientist learn more & help someone who IS alive.
thoughts? |
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01/16/2009 10:50:17 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by vtruan:
Originally posted by dahkota:
[quote=DrAchoo]
Christianity (according to Achoo): If you believe in Jesus, he will save you. |
Its not that you believe in Jesus was a living person in history, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept him as your Savior, before you are saved. |
Saved from what? |
Saved is Short for "Salvation" or being allows to have eternal life with the Lord in Heaven |
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01/16/2009 11:02:49 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
speaking of worm food, what do many of you feel regarding:
reincarnation?
donating your body to science postmortem?
cremation?
My entire family knows that I want my body donated to science, because I would hope it helps a doctor or scientist learn more & help someone who IS alive.
thoughts? |
I believe in Resurrection, not Reincarnation.
I do not see any issue with someone choosing to donate their body to science; I, myself, have opted to register as an organ donor, in the hopes that that will help one or more of those who are alive.
I have also made my family aware that after I die, I want to have my body ( what's left of it after organ donation ) cremated. |
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01/16/2009 11:23:10 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
So, lets really simplify this:
Christianity (according to Achoo): If you believe in Jesus, he will save you.
Most other religions (according to Achoo): If you act according to the dictates of the religion, you will save yourself.
Is that fair? |
Weren't you just busting on me for simplifying things? ;)
"If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. "
You could easily show me wrong by quoting other faiths which show salvation or enlightenment or nirvana is attained for us by someone else.
Originally posted by dahkota:
Achoo states that he finds the salvation possible in christianity to be the best - it requires nothing but faith in Jesus. I think, in christianity, salvation, being saved, is essentially 'being with God' after death, being 'saved' from eternal damnation. But I could be wrong. I find the whole topic fascinating, and am trying to get a handle on what it involves. |
To be fair I didn't say "best" I said "unique".
Message edited by author 2009-01-16 11:26:57. |
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01/16/2009 11:41:05 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by vtruan:
Originally posted by dahkota:
[quote=DrAchoo]
Christianity (according to Achoo): If you believe in Jesus, he will save you. |
Its not that you believe in Jesus was a living person in history, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept him as your Savior, before you are saved. |
Saved from what? |
Saved is Short for "Salvation" or being allows to have eternal life with the Lord in Heaven |
Why would anyone want that? What's so attractive about eternal life?
It sounds like hell to me, to be honest (even if I was in the presence of god for eternity)
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