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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> It really takes 1/4000 to freeze water?
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 04/10/2008 10:25:03 PM · #1
OK, I probably shoot 100 pictures at a shutter speed longer than one second for every shot I take less than 1/500th, so I'm a beginner here.

I'm working on the Water challenge and goofing around with things I haven't done before. Why does my water blur at 1/500th when IreneM's shots are crystal clear? By her notes, it doesn't seem like she is using a special flash, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Here's an IreneM shot at 1/500th:



Here's a test shot of mine over the sink at 1/500th:

[thumb]667939[/thumb]

Here's the same test shot at 1/2000th and 1/4000th

[thumb]667941[/thumb] [thumb]667942[/thumb]

What gives? Is it a flash thing or is my water just travelling faster?
 04/10/2008 10:26:59 PM · #2
I am a complete idiot when it comes to stuff like this, but I wonder if the water itself is part of it...her shot is of milk, which is thicker than water and might hold it's "shape" better? I don't know. I'm sure the flash and the lighting make a big difference as well.
04/10/2008 10:32:25 PM · #3
From the description it sounds like she's using a couple of flashes, and as it was shot at f/16 1/500 I'd say it's most likely the flashes stopping the motion, not the shutter speed. Thats just a guess though, as I don't do this kind of shooting!
 04/10/2008 10:32:57 PM · #4
I'm in the same boat here Doc, I've been wanting to try this type of photography but haven't had the time or the guts to do it.

Found this article that might be of help.
 04/10/2008 10:34:14 PM · #5
Originally posted by bfox2:
From the description it sounds like she's using a couple of flashes, and as it was shot at f/16 1/500 I'd say it's most likely the flashes stopping the motion, not the shutter speed. Thats just a guess though, as I don't do this kind of shooting!


I didn't know flashes could sync faster than say 1/250th. Maybe I just have a cheap flash.
 04/10/2008 10:36:59 PM · #6
Jason, I have dabbled with this a bit. The shutter speed is not the important factor here IMO. The use of flash is very important & how you set up the flash. The flash setup should not be at full power. You will need to experiment with your flash setup vs. your ambient lighting.
 04/10/2008 10:37:12 PM · #7
Higher aperature, REALLY BRIGHT LIGHT?
 04/10/2008 10:40:49 PM · #8
Originally posted by DrAchoo:


What gives? Is it a flash thing or is my water just travelling faster?


Well... if your water has alcohol mixed in it will move faster.
But you're right, it's a flash thing. Depending on a number of
factors a speed light flash duration may be less than 1/20,000th
of a second. Much more than enough to freeze water in it's tracks.
I think Irene uses a manual technique with the flash in automatic
mode. If the flash is close to the water and ISO is not to low
the proper exposure will be accomplished quickly and the flash will be quenched off by the auto circuitry resulting in extremely short flash durations.

I've build a drop detector and done this in a more automated manner.
Even using this method I've never made any drops quite as nice as Irene.

This is about the best one I got:



Message edited by author 2008-04-10 22:44:51.
 04/10/2008 10:40:51 PM · #9
Set the power of the flash to low and the flash duration shall be shorter. Many Pro strobes don't even have a fast enough flash duration as a speedlight. So many photogs which want to shoot these kind of shots usually end up using more than one speedlight.
 04/10/2008 10:42:33 PM · #10
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I didn't know flashes could sync faster than say 1/250th. Maybe I just have a cheap flash.


The Nikon D50 syncs at 1/500th (as does the D70s)... skate/snowboard photogs love em, along with medium format, for synching in broad daylight.

Also, the flash duration of the SB800 that she used to light the shot is as follows:

1/1050 sec. at M1/1 (full) output
1/1100 sec. at M1/2 output
1/2700 sec. at M1/4 output
1/5900 sec. at M1/8 output
1/10900 sec. at M1/16 output
1/17800 sec. at M1/32 output
1/32300 sec. at M1/64 output
1/41600 sec. at M1/128 output

So, even though she shot at 1/500, the droplets were only lit for a fraction of that, depending on the flash power. ..

Message edited by author 2008-04-10 22:43:10.
 04/10/2008 10:43:24 PM · #11
Originally posted by notesinstones:
Higher aperature, REALLY BRIGHT LIGHT?


In my frozen water motion shots , I use 2-3 flash set at less than full power (how much need to experiment) & the dimmer the ambient light the more effective in stopping motion.
 04/10/2008 10:53:33 PM · #12
Originally posted by andrewt:
Originally posted by notesinstones:
Higher aperature, REALLY BRIGHT LIGHT?


In my frozen water motion shots , I use 2-3 flash set at less than full power (how much need to experiment) & the dimmer the ambient light the more effective in stopping motion.


I've only tried freezing water once with a flash and I made sure that the ambient light had no impact on the shot(it was dark when I shot). Then the flash is doing all the work--and it only lights the water for a fraction of the actual shutter speed. Walaa, frozen water.

eta: option took care of the technicals... ;)

Message edited by author 2008-04-10 22:54:46.
 04/10/2008 10:54:39 PM · #13
or maybe, according to what little physics I know, Irene's water was simply frozen when it's at the very top, right before it's falling down, the water droplets, much like a projectile, stays at the maximum height for just long enough. whereas yours is simply accelerating downwards?
 04/10/2008 10:56:06 PM · #14

With a very short duration flash, you can leave your shutter open on Bulb in a dark room and take the shot and freeze the water, a arrow, a bullet or any thing else that is moving fast. Some of the fancy shots that you see of bullets going through fruit or a hammer breaking a light bulb, etc., are all done with extreamlly short duration, but powerful strobes. The camera shutter is open and the flash is triggered by sound, light, something going through a laser beam, etc. I have a couple of these triggers that I bought as a kit for a really cheap price. There are also more expensive ones that people use to do the bullets, shooting flashes of lighting and stuff like that.

Most flashes (I believe the Vivitar 283 and 285 and I know the 365 do) that have a sensor that reduces power by shortening the flash duration are the best to use. That's why you put them really really close so you only need a very small amount of flash power. Put your camera in a dark room, open the shutter, flash the flash and it's going to stop a lot of action. You have to be careful firing arrows and bullets in a darken room though. ;D

Mike
 04/10/2008 11:06:34 PM · #15
Originally posted by wanjun:
or maybe, according to what little physics I know, Irene's water was simply frozen when it's at the very top, right before it's falling down, the water droplets, much like a projectile, stays at the maximum height for just long enough. whereas yours is simply accelerating downwards?
It doesn't stay at the top very long.
And....

this shot is actually the collision of 2 drops. The flat area on the top only exists for an extremely short period of time. Probably less than a mili-second.
 04/10/2008 11:28:03 PM · #16
Some fantastic stuff liquidsculptures. I guess I won't be doing any of that sort of thing, though. :-
 04/10/2008 11:28:20 PM · #17
Shoot when it's cold? Below 32 F or 0 C. : )

The flash needs to be the overpowering part of the light, but needs to fire a very short time, so use flash close to the action, off camera if possible, and the widest aperture that you can get away with for good DOF and no ambient light fogging. Use manual settings for everything in order to control the shot.


Here is a fly in flight, using the built in pop up flash, shot in my yard in the shade. You can see that the flash fired when her wings were up, but you can see the wings also at the bottom of their travel, where the daylight was lighting them enough for the camera to record that. She was laying eggs.
04/10/2008 11:35:11 PM · #18
to do the desired affect youll need to buy some cheapo manual flashes.... vivitar should do the trick... make sure you set the flash duration to 1/1000 or higher and set your shutter speed to 1/250 and then adjust the aperatre till the desired exposure

:)
 04/10/2008 11:43:38 PM · #19
I've frozen water with a 1/250 second exposure using just the popup flash... :O
 04/10/2008 11:48:43 PM · #20
Originally posted by fir3bird:


this shot is actually the collision of 2 drops. The flat area on the top only exists for an extremely short period of time. Probably less than a mili-second.


ooo I think you're right, the overpowering flash as key makes more sense.
 04/10/2008 11:49:09 PM · #21
The apex is where it basically stands still, kinda like some amusements park rides or bungie jumping. There comes a point where equal opposing forces make for stopped motion. Also the specific gravity of the fluid (layman = thickness) will slow down the movement (moment) to & from the apex.
Though you wuz' smart doc ;)
 04/10/2008 11:59:11 PM · #22
Check out the explanation of the use of multiple flashes here by our own Ann. Her usage was stopping a hummingbird in flight. Her explanation of the use of multiple flashes to sync at higher shutter speeds than the flashes are rated for is good. In her case a shutter speed of 1/10,000th of a second was needed to stop the hummingbird wings, which is far faster than that needed to freeze water.

Edited for spelling...grrr

Message edited by author 2008-04-11 00:00:17.
 04/11/2008 12:34:56 AM · #23
lol, how many water drop entries are we to expect in the water challenge? :-)

I think it all comes down to the flash setup to freeze the motion... try variations of multiple flashes with different setups, I have actually only done a water drop once or twice b4 so i'm no expert by any means but its kinda fun... you end up with like 500 shots and hope one is that special one!
 04/11/2008 12:59:11 AM · #24
Note that her aperture was F/16 on that shot, too. If it was indoors, I'd bet ambient light had no effect at 1/500s. So yep, it's all flash.
 04/11/2008 10:50:48 AM · #25
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by bfox2:
From the description it sounds like she's using a couple of flashes, and as it was shot at f/16 1/500 I'd say it's most likely the flashes stopping the motion, not the shutter speed. Thats just a guess though, as I don't do this kind of shooting!


I didn't know flashes could sync faster than say 1/250th. Maybe I just have a cheap flash.


Flash sync speed is a function of what camera you're using, and how you're syncing it. My D70 would sync with cheap ebay triggers at 1/500. The fastest sync speed I can get with the same triggers and my D300 is 1/180. If I used a cable on the D300, I could get 1/320. It doesn't matter, though. All you need to do is get to the point where there's no ambient light contributing to the shot. Indoors, you can sync at 1/60 or slower, and it will be just fine. You can even leave the room lights on most of the time.

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