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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> ickle Langy's big day!! Scores please..
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03/24/2007 05:15:23 PM · #151
Originally posted by idnic:

Drew commented. Its true, he still exists! None from Langy though. Langdon, you got some commentin' to do! :D


Well I got a comment from the Golden One... but no 6.6 score. :-(
03/24/2007 05:15:30 PM · #152
Votes: 139
Views: 291
Avg Vote: 6.2374
Comments: 10
Favorites: 1

...and a Langdon comment.
03/24/2007 05:24:06 PM · #153
Votes: 129
Views: 202
Comments: 6
Updated: 03/24/07 05:21 pm

But no comment from Langdon, must not have liked my present :-(

It's my best score so far though, and looks like I will be in the top 100 :-)
03/24/2007 05:27:28 PM · #154
Originally posted by stdavidson:


Right or wrong, I'm influenced by the American k-12 educational system because I've worked with grade reporting in hundreds of school districts all over the USA. With very, very few exceptions they set the 70-80 percentile as 'average' or "C" level accomplishment.

But with all due respect to Greetmir and salmiakki, whose influences are different, most DPCers that submit and vote are Americans where the 70th percentile is considered 'average'. Therefore, the percentile average scores they normally get from DPC essentially tells Americans their photography is subpar.

It is interesting to me that I tend to vote the 'good' images higher than the group, but vote the 'bad' images lower. Thank goodness there are not a lot of really 'bad' images. Ironically, I probably score 90% or more of image submissions higher than my own get from the group.


I have the same issues with voting - I trend much higher in voting on other entries than what how they average out in the end. I, too, have a difficult time adjusting to a 5.x being considered average, since the 100% scoring system in the US would put that strongly in the failing range.

It is very insightful to have examples from other countries on scoring, and actually makes more sense to me now as to why the DPC scores are so much lower than I'd expect.

Anyway, Happy Birthday to Langdon! :^)
03/24/2007 06:05:40 PM · #155
Votes: 136
Views: 406
Avg Vote: 6.5000
Comments: 16

got comments from drew and langdon haha
03/24/2007 06:13:53 PM · #156
Originally posted by zymara:

I, too, have a difficult time adjusting to a 5.x being considered average, since the 100% scoring system in the US would put that strongly in the failing range.


School scoring systems are largely based on objective tests (with right and wrong answers). Photography is VERY subjective, so it's essentially impossible to be "right" in the eyes of all the judges. You can't please everyone, but you CAN please (or offend) most of them. Thus, a 7=A and 3=F on a subjective scale. Final scores outside that range are possible here, but rare.
03/24/2007 06:40:29 PM · #157
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by zymara:

I, too, have a difficult time adjusting to a 5.x being considered average, since the 100% scoring system in the US would put that strongly in the failing range.


School scoring systems are largely based on objective tests (with right and wrong answers). Photography is VERY subjective, so it's essentially impossible to be "right" in the eyes of all the judges. You can't please everyone, but you CAN please (or offend) most of them. Thus, a 7=A and 3=F on a subjective scale. Final scores outside that range are possible here, but rare.


School scoring systems are largely based on objective tests???????? If you take an objective test in every school you find that the average score is very very low!!!!!! My experience in the school tell that you mustn't apply objective evaluation criteria but you must work on the average knowledge of the object. It's impossible to compare DPC votes with scholastic votes. In Italian schools we have the same rating, from 1 to 10, well in my career only to 1 (ONE) student I assigned 10 (TEN) in computer science!!!!! every day the average evaluation is 4/5 and the minimum evaluation for go to next year is 6.
03/24/2007 07:19:09 PM · #158
Mine must be relatively bad then. No comments from either Drew or Langdon. But I like the pic and the intentions were good. Going for the brown!

Votes: 128
Views: 183
Avg Vote: 4.8438
Comments: 2

03/24/2007 11:33:11 PM · #159
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by zymara:

I, too, have a difficult time adjusting to a 5.x being considered average, since the 100% scoring system in the US would put that strongly in the failing range.


School scoring systems are largely based on objective tests (with right and wrong answers). Photography is VERY subjective, so it's essentially impossible to be "right" in the eyes of all the judges. You can't please everyone, but you CAN please (or offend) most of them. Thus, a 7=A and 3=F on a subjective scale. Final scores outside that range are possible here, but rare.


I tend to agree with your Hypothesis here, however, it matters not how good or bad you are, the best of us can, and do on occasions, get a low vote, and the worst of us can, and somtimes do get a high vote, and this does not make us better or worse photographers.

oh! happy birthday to Langdon, and thanks for the comment.

Votes: 140
Views: 268
Avg Vote: 5.7357
Comments: 4
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 03/24/07 10:53 pm

03/25/2007 03:40:06 AM · #160
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by idnic:

Drew commented. Its true, he still exists! None from Langy though. Langdon, you got some commentin' to do! :D


Well I got a comment from the Golden One... but no 6.6 score. :-(


Langdon comment and "your" score approaching? <pbpbpb> <---and not feeling bad about it. Congrats Steve on your filial connection!
Votes: 141
Views: 699
Avg Vote: 6.5674
Comments: 11
03/25/2007 04:45:51 AM · #161
Votes: 147
Views: 277
Avg Vote: 5.7619
Comments: 5
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 03/25/07 04:34 am

03/26/2007 08:03:40 AM · #162
every time I look it has crept up i tiny bit more

Votes: 159
Views: 300
Avg Vote: 5.7799
Comments: 6
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 03/26/07 07:59 am

03/26/2007 03:46:11 PM · #163
Wholly molly... since day one my image has been in the 6.3 range...

Votes: 157
Views: 234
Avg Vote: 6.4013
Comments: 3
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0

Not a good score by any means in the 'real' world but pretty decent by DPC standards for an image with only three comments and no favorites.
03/27/2007 12:28:42 AM · #164
Votes: 165
Views: 231
Avg Vote: 5.4485
Comments: 3
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 03/27/07 12:20 am


Pretty good considering its a Kari photo!
03/27/2007 01:00:10 AM · #165
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Wholly molly... since day one my image has been in the 6.3 range...

Votes: 157
Views: 234
Avg Vote: 6.4013
Comments: 3
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0

Not a good score by any means in the 'real' world but pretty decent by DPC standards for an image with only three comments and no favorites.


Steve, do you ever give it a break? For 'real' world read USA; as has been pointed out again, and again, and again, in Europe at least we operate on a very different marking structure.
03/27/2007 02:40:39 PM · #166
Originally posted by SaraR:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Votes: 157
Views: 234
Avg Vote: 6.4013
Comments: 3
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0

Not a good score by any means in the 'real' world but pretty decent by DPC standards for an image with only three comments and no favorites.


Steve, do you ever give it a break? For 'real' world read USA; as has been pointed out again, and again, and again, in Europe at least we operate on a very different marking structure.

Sorry, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but low scores at DPC is the windmill I chase. :)

This is not a USA centric issue at all, it is global.

For example, lets take the United Kingdom's evaluation system, the one I believe you are familiar with...

Tis true, scoring at the 50-59 percentile is considered 'average' in England. Though I'm sure there are local variations to England's grading scale it is generally something like this:
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------
England, Wales and Northern Ireland use a unified system for grading secondary school qualifications.

General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE) is graded on scale of A*-G, with U as Ungraded (Fail).

NOTE: Grade % Averages are estimates
* A*: Outstanding (Grade % Average: 80 and above)
* A: Excellent (Grade % Average: 70 - 79)
* B: Above average (Grade % average: 60-69)
* C: Average (Grade % average: 50-59)
* D: Below Average (Grade % average: 45-50)
* E: Poor (Grade % average: 40-44) is the lowest passing % average
* F:
* G:
* U: Ungraded (Grade % average: 0-40)
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

Using the Grade % averages in parenthesis above it can be interpreted according to the DPC grading scale as such:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DPC score - United Kingdom equivalent
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
8,9,10 - A*: Outstanding (Grade % Average: 80 and above)
7 ------ A: Excellent (Grade % Average: 70 - 79)
6 ------ B: Above average (Grade % average: 60-69)
5 ------ C: Average (Grade % average: 50-59)
1-4 ---- D: Below Average (Grade % average: 45-50)
-------- E: Poor (Grade % average: 40-44) is the lowest passing % average
---------F:
---------G:
---------U: Ungraded (Grade % average: 0-40)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My chart probably suffers from an alignment problem based on fonts but you get the idea, whether or not you agree with it is another story. :)

Analysis:
No surprise that you are correct. In England, scoring at the 50-59 percentile is 'average'. In fact, England's 55% median EXACTLY matches the 5.5 scoring median in DPC's 1-10 scoring system that many voters at DPC believe should be the average score given. (Others think it should be 5.0, hence the average of 5.3-5.4 we actually observe)

However, there is more to it than that...

According to England's scale 60-69 % (6-6.9 scoring in equivalent DPC numbers) is 'above average' or B level accomplishnment.

Here are the the hard, cold facts from 5 recent DPC challenges, most of which were ABOVE average in DPC scoring:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Name - English standard - percent of images meeting the standard
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Color Portrait II - 'above average' - 23%
Cross Dressing - 'above average' - 31%
Image Grain - 'above average' - 16%
Circle - 'above average' - 16%
Time - 'above average' - 16%
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, by even England's standard most often less that 31% of all images submitted to DPC are 'above average' (And most commonly, less than 20% meet England's subjective standards of being 'above average')

Less than 1% of DPC images meets England's 'excellent' category. Your own blue ribbon winning image would be considered 'Excellent' but NOT 'outstanding' based on its score. Less than 50 out of 130,000+ total images submitted to DPC challenges meets the criteria needed to meet England's 'outstanding' category(Score of 8 or more). In other words, to be 'outstanding' by English standards you have to be almost at the 100th percentile of scores all time at DPC.

I'm guessing that does NOT match your own experience within the English secondary educational system. I think that 'outstanding' is achieved somewhere between 10-20 percent.

Even by English standards, DPC scoring doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Now, if you can explain to me why an image usually has to finish in the top 20% of all images to barely get into the 'above average' subjective category I will agree with you. Until then, I will not.

I might add, England's percentile scoring for 'average' is lower than Europe in general, and Canada's as well as other commonwealth countrys.

I could do this type of analysis for just about any country on Earth and the results will be similar:
DPC voters tend to underrate higher quality images regardless whose country's standards you apply. It is NOT a USA prejudice.

As long as this remains true I will chase my windmill. :)
03/27/2007 03:12:49 PM · #167
Hiya, Steve, I may have mush in my brain, but I think that maybe I finally get one of the practical application for your reasoning/pour moi.

It's never bothered me that "7" is the beginning of the pinnacle of performance around here, because it's turned out to be consistent across the board, pretty much all challenges. I came here from photo.net where as I recall (and boy, that could be faulty as well) that the judging was even stricter.

What you (also) want me/us to do is have a broader range of scores assigned by us individually, right? I certainly fall into that category, having done all my voting starting with 5, giving it to anything average. Good un's get 6 minimum as placeholders for review later, screamingly good stuff gets the 8/9 and occasional 10 from the git go. I'm one of those that votes a whole challenge or not at all--unless the whole thing is filled mostly with snapshots (tough theme, where I'm turned off by the submissions) or sometimes on the gargantuan free studies where there's 500 and above. The day before rollover I go back to my 6 and aboves, and bump them up and add more comments, rarely knocking one down in score. Then I pass through the thumbs (at least) of the 5s, and make sure I wasn't unfair. The 4s and below I leave alone, trusting my first instincts.

Such narrow bandwidth to start is absolutely un-nuanced (is that a word?)for those 5s and 6s and it would make my revisit way easier if I'd use more range in scoring, besides your argument for a depressed scale in general. So I will start assigning a broader range from the start--and maybe my avg vote cast will rise to 6+ from 5.3ish.

Haven't seen any discussion of it, but I'm finding the "real time stats" very interesting, watching my average go up and down, almost as much fun as the update button.

OK, must need...more caffeine. Back to your regularly scheduled scores thread.
03/27/2007 03:45:52 PM · #168
Originally posted by lynnesite:

... It's never bothered me that "7" is the beginning of the pinnacle of performance around here, because it's turned out to be consistent across the board, pretty much all challenges. I came here from photo.net where as I recall (and boy, that could be faulty as well) that the judging was even stricter.

What you (also) want me/us to do is have a broader range of scores assigned by us individually, right? I certainly fall into that category, ...

Such narrow bandwidth to start is absolutely un-nuanced (is that a word?)for those 5s and 6s ...

Unfortunately, I'm even 'worse' than this. By USA standards a "7" is barely in the 'average' scale at 70-79 percent and I know that most DPC participants and voters are Americans so the lower averages bother me even more.

It is no shock to me that the United Kingdom or any other country's scoring standards would suggest that good DPC images are underrated, they are. That is a similarity Englishmen share with Americans.

It is my firm belief that, despite improvements in camera and software digital imaging technology and the skills of DPC photographers, that the average score given to DPC images has not varied since the site started years ago for one reason and one reason alone...

We vote the way we do because everyone else does. As a group DPCers vote 'down' images because everyone else votes 'down' our own.

My simple goal is to give images scores they deserve and buck that trend. I don't wanna change people's minds, just do what make sense to me and be able to explain to others why.

It blows me away I get criticized for voting images to high.
03/27/2007 03:59:25 PM · #169
My apologies for my transgression into the world of scores, but this is a scoring discussion, isn't it? ;)

My current numbers:
Votes: 168
Views: 248
Avg Vote: 6.3988
Comments: 3
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
03/27/2007 05:12:32 PM · #170
Gee Steve, the last time our scores were this close together mine got DQ'd. :-)
Votes: 171
Views: 749
Avg Vote: 6.6316
Comments: 12

Yeah, it seems strange indeed that anyone would jump on ya for higher than the um, average around here!
03/27/2007 05:28:56 PM · #171
Somebody toss me a life ring - I'm still sinking
(or maybe that's stinking)

Votes: 181
Views: 661
Avg Vote: 5.5193
Comments: 35
03/27/2007 05:35:36 PM · #172
Originally posted by lynnesite:

Gee Steve, the last time our scores were this close together mine got DQ'd. :-)
Votes: 171
Views: 749
Avg Vote: 6.6316
Comments: 12

Cheater! Cheater! Cheater! :)

I remember that... felt bad that my image replaced yours in 4th in a challenge. Yours is a beautiful backlighted horse. I hate DQs.

Looks like you got me fair and square this time, though...

Now where is that "Click here if you suspect a rules violation" box anyway? Oh, excuse me... found it... never mind. LOL!!!
03/27/2007 07:27:51 PM · #173
Originally posted by stdavidson:


It blows me away I get criticized for voting images to high.


Votes Cast: 2,402
Avg Vote Cast: 7.2814

Me too ...
03/27/2007 07:47:31 PM · #174
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by lynnesite:

Gee Steve, the last time our scores were this close together mine got DQ'd. :-)
Votes: 171
Views: 749
Avg Vote: 6.6316
Comments: 12

Cheater! Cheater! Cheater! :)

I remember that... felt bad that my image replaced yours in 4th in a challenge. Yours is a beautiful backlighted horse. I hate DQs.

Looks like you got me fair and square this time, though...

Now where is that "Click here if you suspect a rules violation" box anyway? Oh, excuse me... found it... never mind. LOL!!!


I learned more about basic editing, though! so the DQ was worthwhile--before submitting, I'm awfully dang careful to be sure I didn't blow it.

Hmmm, that's before you disappeared off of the map for a while. Well, maybe not off of Terrain Server, but certainly off of my radar! And I think right before I'd planned a trip to your neighborhood! Without the assault rifle, though.
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