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12/02/2005 11:31:37 PM · #1 |
Here's a sequence of shots I took at a high school basketball tourney last night. As I was processing these I realized that I had missed a lot of the action that took place between shots. And, at least in my opinion, these shots illustrate why professional sports photojournalists (and wannabes like me) place such a high value on a very fast burst rate in a digital DSLR.
   
These shots were taken with my 20D in AI Servo mode and Continuous drive mode. I think the 20D with it's 5 frames per second burst rate is a pretty darn good camera for this kind of work, but, as you can see, a lot can happen in a fifth of a second. A camera with a burst rate of 8 or 8.5 fps would capture the action better.
The lighting was above average in this particular gym so I decided to try my Sigma 70-200 f 2.8. I set the camera on Aperture priority and set the aperture to 2.8. I had to crank up the ISO to 3200 but that resulted in shutter speeds ranging from 200 to 500. These aren't great shots but decent ones, probably good enough for a local weekly to publish.
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12/02/2005 11:37:52 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I had to crank up the ISO to 3200 but that resulted in shutter speeds ranging from 200 to 500. |
I would say it's below average for sports photography.
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12/02/2005 11:51:31 PM · #3 |
Not sure what you mean. What's below average - the lighting, the 20D, or my shooting/processing technique?
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12/03/2005 12:00:00 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Not sure what you mean. What's below average - the lighting, the 20D, or my shooting/processing technique? |
So sorry, i meant the lighting. :p
Originally posted by coolhar:
The lighting was above average in this particular gym so I decided to try my Sigma 70-200 f 2.8 |
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12/03/2005 12:08:19 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by zerocusa:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Not sure what you mean. What's below average - the lighting, the 20D, or my shooting/processing technique? |
So sorry, i meant the lighting. :p
Originally posted by coolhar:
The lighting was above average in this particular gym so I decided to try my Sigma 70-200 f 2.8 |
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I felt the lighting was better than most of the high school gyms I've had experience shooting in. The floor had a high gloss finish which reflected some light back up at the players. Most of the places I shoot I need to use my 85 f1.8 or my 50 f1.8 and still have to go up to 800 or 1600 ISO. Shutter speed of 1/250 is about the slowest that I find acceptable, I try to go faster when possible.
zerocusa, you've got an 8 fps camera. What do you think about burst rates for sports action?
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12/03/2005 12:57:10 AM · #6 |
Don't under estimate this sequence of photographs. They are great! Yea could of been better lightig conditions but you executed the skill of taking the photographs. Let me explain from my point of view. A non professional photographer that likes sports.
Photo 1:
Great example of catching the player with the ball at the moment he made his decision to plant his left foot and cut behind his defender. You can clearly see it in action. The ankle is planted and his eyes is looking in the direction he wants to go. And by the way you can see the defender as his mind has not prepared for the offensive move.
Photo 2:
This photo shows the the defender surprise with the offensive move. He is now out of position as the offensive play continues own with his drive. The facial expression of the defender is priceless ("Where did he go?").
Photo 3:
The defender plants and tries to get back into position before the offensive player get in position to pass or take a shot. The facial expressions of both players are telling the story.
Photo 4:
The offensive player is preparing for his next move as the defender is trying to get back in to position to prevent a successful shot.
All four photographs complement each other and reads like a book. I think is is a very good job and executed with a high level of professionalism. I bet the shot was made in the lane.
Coolhar this would make a great quad-patch photographed will full size images in each patch.
Message edited by author 2005-12-03 01:00:38. |
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12/03/2005 01:02:45 AM · #7 |
Lighting looks great to me for a gym - and I've done photo editing for sports photography professionally.
Gyms can be really tough especially when you get truly awful mercury-vapor lights that throw out all kinds of bizarre hues. I used to see purple skin and green backgrounds - not easy to adjust for at all.
Personally I think the the crops are a little tight on the shots, they are all moving with nowhere to go.
Overall it's a good set though. |
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12/03/2005 01:27:30 AM · #8 |
Yes there is a vast difference between 3,5, and 8.5 Frames per second. Don't let anyone tell you different. Its all of the in between images that you will miss otherwise. I have all three different camera's ranging from Nikon D70 at 3fps, Canon 20D, at 5fps, and Canon 1D MK II at 8.5 fps. I treat it like a fast car, I only crank up when necessary otherwise I leave it near 4-5 fps. You always have to think about shutter clicks over the life of the camera.
In sports photography timing and location is everything. So if you can afford the speed, go ahead and take advantage. |
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12/03/2005 02:43:23 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
zerocusa, you've got an 8 fps camera. What do you think about burst rates for sports action? |
Haha.. while i do have the chance to use an 8fps camera, i don't actually own one.
With a 8fps compared to 5/3 fps cam, i don't deny your hit rate will increase. But that itself does not replace experiance and your personal understanding of the game. The ability to anticipate key plays and action still very much applies.
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12/03/2005 04:20:16 AM · #10 |
If you're shooting at 1/500, then your 8 frames per second means you capture 8 500ths of a second of action. 5 fps means you capture 5 500ths. That's 1.6% as opposed to 1%. It's not that different, really. Understanding and empathising with the action will be far more important, surely.
E |
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12/03/2005 04:24:13 AM · #11 |
Why 8fps?
Well when you hear half a dozen or more
MkII's all cranked up, it sounds really cool...
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12/03/2005 08:13:51 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by e301:
If you're shooting at 1/500, then your 8 frames per second means you capture 8 500ths of a second of action. 5 fps means you capture 5 500ths. That's 1.6% as opposed to 1%. It's not that different, really. Understanding and empathising with the action will be far more important, surely.
E |
Actually, you are incorrect.
The camera does not shoot perfectly consecutive shots. Meaning if you shoot 5 shots at 1/500th sec 5/500ths of a sec does not pass. More time than that passes. You are not accounting for shutter lag, etc.
I have a D2x that has one of the fastest shutters on the planet (37 milliseconds) 5 shots at 1/500th sec PLUS 5 x 37 milliseconds is a lot more than 5/500ths sec.
Remember, the camera is dviding the one second by five frames REGARDLESS of shutter speed.
1 sec divided by 5 shots equals a shot every 5th of a sec.
1 sec divided by 8 shots equals a shot every 8th of a sec.
That is nearly 38% faster..not 1.6%
THAT IS A LOT FASTER!!!
Message edited by author 2005-12-03 08:14:57.
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12/03/2005 08:36:38 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Why 8fps?
Well when you hear half a dozen or more
MkII's all cranked up, it sounds really cool...
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I would not want to be shooting Nikon with that group of guys! lol |
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12/03/2005 08:50:53 AM · #14 |
Burst rate isn't everything either. Buffer size and the speed of the memory card being used also form a part of the equation.
You can miss a lot of shots while waiting for the card to write once you've finished one burst.
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12/03/2005 09:45:13 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by qmdi:
Originally posted by BradP:
Why 8fps?
Well when you hear half a dozen or more
MkII's all cranked up, it sounds really cool...
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I would not want to be shooting Nikon with that group of guys! lol |
Screw them Canon guys :-P
I got something for them. Check this out!!
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12/03/2005 01:43:00 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by hokie:
Originally posted by e301:
If you're shooting at 1/500, then your 8 frames per second means you capture 8 500ths of a second of action. 5 fps means you capture 5 500ths. That's 1.6% as opposed to 1%. It's not that different, really. Understanding and empathising with the action will be far more important, surely.
E |
Actually, you are incorrect.
The camera does not shoot perfectly consecutive shots. Meaning if you shoot 5 shots at 1/500th sec 5/500ths of a sec does not pass. More time than that passes. You are not accounting for shutter lag, etc.
I have a D2x that has one of the fastest shutters on the planet (37 milliseconds) 5 shots at 1/500th sec PLUS 5 x 37 milliseconds is a lot more than 5/500ths sec.
Remember, the camera is dviding the one second by five frames REGARDLESS of shutter speed.
1 sec divided by 5 shots equals a shot every 5th of a sec.
1 sec divided by 8 shots equals a shot every 8th of a sec.
That is nearly 38% faster..not 1.6%
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The 1.6% was correct. You are looking at it in a different way. The 1.6% is the percentage of a second (time) in which the shutter is actually open. Theoretically you can slow the shutter down to 1/10 sec and still pull off 8.5 fps. At that speed your percentage would have increased to 85% (as opposed to 50% @ 5 fps)
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12/03/2005 01:54:24 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by hokie:
Originally posted by e301:
If you're shooting at 1/500, then your 8 frames per second means you capture 8 500ths of a second of action. 5 fps means you capture 5 500ths. That's 1.6% as opposed to 1%. It's not that different, really. Understanding and empathising with the action will be far more important, surely.
E |
Actually, you are incorrect.
The camera does not shoot perfectly consecutive shots. Meaning if you shoot 5 shots at 1/500th sec 5/500ths of a sec does not pass. More time than that passes. You are not accounting for shutter lag, etc.
I have a D2x that has one of the fastest shutters on the planet (37 milliseconds) 5 shots at 1/500th sec PLUS 5 x 37 milliseconds is a lot more than 5/500ths sec.
Remember, the camera is dviding the one second by five frames REGARDLESS of shutter speed.
1 sec divided by 5 shots equals a shot every 5th of a sec.
1 sec divided by 8 shots equals a shot every 8th of a sec.
That is nearly 38% faster..not 1.6%
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The 1.6% was correct. You are looking at it in a different way. The 1.6% is the percentage of a second (time) in which the shutter is actually open. Theoretically you can slow the shutter down to 1/10 sec and still pull off 8.5 fps. At that speed your percentage would have increased to 85% (as opposed to 50% @ 5 fps) |
Aren't these percentages somewhat misleading? I would have thought that the most important thing (simplistically speaking) is that, at eight fps, one gets 60% more shots in the same time over a camera shooting at five fps i.e three more shots per second. Even so, one could still miss 'the moment' if not understanding and empathising with the action to some extent.
Thinking about it, one should not look at the absolute difference, but look at the relative difference instead. Hence, the difference is not 0.6%, rather it is 60%. This 60% still holds at the quoted 1/10 shutter speed.
Message edited by author 2005-12-03 14:21:04.
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12/03/2005 02:03:58 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by zagman:
Yes there is a vast difference between 3,5, and 8.5 Frames per second. Don't let anyone tell you different. Its all of the in between images that you will miss otherwise. I have all three different camera's ranging from Nikon D70 at 3fps, Canon 20D, at 5fps, and Canon 1D MK II at 8.5 fps. I treat it like a fast car, I only crank up when necessary otherwise I leave it near 4-5 fps. You always have to think about shutter clicks over the life of the camera.
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Speaking about shutter clicks, could one of you engineering types explain why you have 8 shutter clicks per second as opposed to switching the sensor off/on. Granted this would work better with a rangefinder camera, if you track action through the viewfinder, but sure would lead to faster rates.
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12/03/2005 02:29:34 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
Originally posted by zagman:
Yes there is a vast difference between 3,5, and 8.5 Frames per second. Don't let anyone tell you different. Its all of the in between images that you will miss otherwise. I have all three different camera's ranging from Nikon D70 at 3fps, Canon 20D, at 5fps, and Canon 1D MK II at 8.5 fps. I treat it like a fast car, I only crank up when necessary otherwise I leave it near 4-5 fps. You always have to think about shutter clicks over the life of the camera.
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Speaking about shutter clicks, could one of you engineering types explain why you have 8 shutter clicks per second as opposed to switching the sensor off/on. Granted this would work better with a rangefinder camera, if you track action through the viewfinder, but sure would lead to faster rates. |
Actually powering the sensor on and off is a slower process that what can be achieved with a shutter.
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12/03/2005 02:33:46 PM · #20 |
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12/03/2005 03:40:48 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by faidoi:
Video camera :P |
Yup - look at the guy in the upper left corner. He's shooting at 60 FPS and blowing away all those Canon guys. LOL
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12/03/2005 05:24:28 PM · #22 |
I am playing with several settings shooting my basketball stuff. I also have been using my flash...pointed up 580ex
Today I tried using the AI servo...but it seemed slower than normal. Almost like shooting with my old rebel. I am shooting mine in manual mode and setting the ISO to 1600 and shutter speed is usually 250...I set it at 320. I do not have enough experience to know if this is the right thing to do or not....I like your pictures. Oh I am also shooting with my 2.8. Man I wish they made the 35-350 in a 2.8!!!!!!!!!!
I will add some pics here to show you what mine look like. Also...my flash does not fire with every shot. I really like shooting without it if I can. I also set my focus point on only the center today. Taking pics off the cards right now. Will put up a reply later. Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks Barry |
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12/03/2005 06:03:07 PM · #23 |
   
Here is one sequence without AI servo and with all focus points |
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12/03/2005 06:17:09 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by alixmiles:
I am playing with several settings shooting my basketball stuff. I also have been using my flash...pointed up 580ex
Today I tried using the AI servo...but it seemed slower than normal. Almost like shooting with my old rebel. I am shooting mine in manual mode and setting the ISO to 1600 and shutter speed is usually 250...I set it at 320. I do not have enough experience to know if this is the right thing to do or not....
I will add some pics here to show you what mine look like. Also...my flash does not fire with every shot. I really like shooting without it if I can. I also set my focus point on only the center today. Taking pics off the cards right now. Will put up a reply later. Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks Barry |
The flash needs time to recycle/recharge. how long that takes depends on the batteries (strength/state of charge) and how much light was discharged. A full discharge on 1/2 full batts can take a second or longer to recharge.
Back when I shot BB, i used a full manaul SLR and b&w film pushed to ISO800 (400 speed film) and 1/250. I forget the aperture, but probably wide open on a 50mm kit lens (1.8?? forgive me but it's been twenty years). I also got to shoot courtside so a tele lens was not an issue (didn't have one...)
From what i've done with my rebel is has Sports mode (ai servo, ISO 400) and that works just fine for action. the one shot focus is hard to get good focus on movement at or away from me - the split second it takes to actually fire the shutter is enough to mess the focus up.
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12/03/2005 07:06:01 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
From what i've done with my rebel is has Sports mode (ai servo, ISO 400) and that works just fine for action. the one shot focus is hard to get good focus on movement at or away from me - the split second it takes to actually fire the shutter is enough to mess the focus up. |
Some gyms are lit better than others. In one very well lit gym, I was able to use sports mode, but the camera kept a speed of 1/250 and varied the aperature between f/1.4 and f/1.6 (I mostly use Av mode, and set the aperature to the widest possible, ISO is 1600 for an f/2.8 and 800 for f/1.4 in most less-well-lit gyms)
Of course, you have to be careful of the focus points in sports mode on the D300--there's not a lot of them and my camera doesn't indicate the one it selects. |
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