Shutterstock Policy: Alert - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/07/2004 05:34:48 PM · #1

When you sign up for Shutterstock, you need to be aware that if you decide to cancel your account with them prior to reaching the $100 minimum payout, you will forfeit the royalties that you have earned. I have a reason to cancel my account there and I requested payout and was denied. Here is the conversation:

Post 1:

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:28 PM
Subject: [Submit] ShutterStock Support Email

Greetings...

I would like to have all of my images disabled at this time. I am
planning to go with an exclusive agreement on another stock photo site. I would also like to have the existing profit paid out via Paypal to the
account that I provided.

John Setzler
Hickory, North Carolina

Response:

Hi John -

We will disable your images and cancel the account but the contract clearly
states that you will not receive payment until you have reached $100.

Andrea Miller

//www.shutterstock.com

My Reply:

Does this mean that I will not be paid if I close my account?
- Show quoted text -

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:43:18 -0500, Andrea Miller
wrote:
> Hi John -
>
> We will disable your images and cancel the account but the contract clearly
> states that you will not receive payment until you have reached $100.
>
> Andrea Miller
>
> //www.shutterstock.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:28 PM
> Subject: [Submit] ShutterStock Support Email
>
> > Greetings...
> >
> > I would like to have all of my images disabled at this time. I am
> > planning to go with an exclusive agreement on another stock photo site. I
> > would also like to have the existing profit paid out via Paypal to the
> > account that I provided.
> >
> > John Setzler
> > Hickory, North Carolina
>
>

--
John M. Setzler, Jr.
4340 North Center Street #501
Hickory, North Carolina 28601
828.267.5763
//www.setzler.net

Response:

Yes. This was in the contract.

If you leave istock before you reach a hundred dollars, they will not pay you either. It's a pretty standard system.

Reply:

Istock will pay out a balance less than $100 on an account cancellation.

Your Terms of Service state:

"There is a minimum payout rate of $100. If during a pay period, you
haven't accumulated $100 worth of downloads, your earnings will be
brought forward into the next pay period."

There is no provision for an account cancellation prior to making the
minimum payout.

I will wait for a final response before I alert the online photography
communities where I participate about this issue.

John Setzler

Response:

You accepted our terms of service when you signed up.
We pay out when you reach $100. If you close your account before then, you forfeit all earnings.
We aren't exclusive - it isn't our fault that istock is. Ask them to remove exclusivity. Why should we change our rules for them?
Jon

Reply:

Your terms of service make no mention of what happens in the event of
an account cancellation.

Don't worry about it though.. Just disable my images and write me off
as a photographer who is dissatisfied with your system. I will be
alerting my online communities of this issue, because it is NOT
spelled out in the terms of service.

I'm not asking you to change your rules. Your rules simply are not
clear and this should give you an opportunity to make it clear for
others. You should add this to your terms of service:

"If you cancel your account with shutterstock and have not reached the
$100 minimum payout, you will forfeit any royalties that you have
earned."

Sincerely,

John M. Setzler, Jr. - Hickory, North Carolina

*****

All that being said, there are two sides to this argument. They have a terms of service that discusses a minimum payout of $100. There is no mention of conditions regarding this payout, so I lose my $30.10 in royalties for disabling my photos there and having my account cancelled.

I found an exclusive opportunity with another stock site (please note that I never mentioned iStock to the folks at Shutterstock :) that I want to pursue, so I will be penalized by Shutterstock for cancelling my account with them.

Based on this, I would also assume that if you ever wanted to close your account with Shutterstock, if you had collected money in the past, you should wait until your current payout is at least $100, then disable all your photos, then request payout or you will lose any 'balance' that you have that is less than $100.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

12/07/2004 05:44:08 PM · #2

Dumb policy, dumber account rep. That'll end up costing them way more than $100.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/07/2004 05:49:42 PM · #3

I may be mistaken here, but I have read the Shutterstock rules which state the following, and the rules seem clear to me:

"There is a minimum payout rate of $100. If during a pay period, you haven't accumulated $100 worth of downloads, your earnings will be brought forward into the next pay period. If you cancel your account before you reach $100 in earnings, you will be forfeiting those earnings".

Am I missing something here???

12/07/2004 05:51:56 PM · #4

Originally posted by RayEthier:

No.. you aren't missing anything.. This is in their terms of service. This isn't what it said when I looked at it earlier today though :)

Message edited by author 2004-12-07 17:52:38.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

12/07/2004 05:52:20 PM · #5

I guess I had assumed from the start that this would be the case because this incident doesn't surprise me in the least. I imagine they will make a good portion of their money from folks who either terminate their account before reaching $100 or who never quite make it to $100 and don't get that $90 payout.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/07/2004 05:54:29 PM · #6

Here's a couple of interesting posts from way back in mid October when everyone was signing up

Originally posted by Trekker:

Originally posted by shutterstock:
Hi Trekker - any sales that benefit the site will benefit the user- as those photos they joined for will be downloaded - and they can take the entire set of outtakes.

Also - going forward - as the site grows, we will be able to increase the charge to our customers, and then increase payout to our photographers.

If in the future you aren't making money like you were in the beginning, you are free to remove all of your photos! It is to our advantage to try to keep you though - so if the payout isn't keeping our photographers, we will increase the price to clients, and then increase payout to photographers.

Jon Oringer
ShutterStock.com

Hi Jon,

It seems to me that the best answer would be for you to "clear your books" of all the accrued money owed photographers or artists on a periodic basis - even if the period is once a quarter or twice a year (in addition to the monthly payout for sums greater than $100). And certainly, if a photographer or artist withdraws from the site, he/she should receive compensation for the work that did sell if the total is less than $100.

Originally posted by Trekker:

Originally posted by jxpfeer:
The business model is interesting. i'm assuming they're banking on it the same way services like netflix do. people pay the price per month and think "oh boy i'm gonna download everything..." and they do, for a short time... then after they get tired of it they have downloaded more than they need, and the company recoups the original losses... which seems to work for netflix.

the other side too is that for 90 dollars, an advertising company or something like that, can get unlimited downloads of high quality images.. some months they may need more, some months less.

It seems pretty decent so far, would be cool to see if it takes off.

One thing we need to keep in perspective - they only pay out after we have accumulated $100 in sales. As the site grows our chances of selling 500 pictures diminishes because the competitive number of available photos works against us, so the site can grow in sales volume but the payout to photographers can shrink in proportion. With this business model there will always be a high number photographers who make sales to the benefit of the site but never recieve any compensation for themselves.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/07/2004 05:54:36 PM · #7

At least my loss caused them to update their terms of service to make it clear :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

12/07/2004 05:57:02 PM · #8

I actually remember something which pretty clearly implied you would get a payout if you closed the account, but I can't find that post right now.

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

12/07/2004 05:59:20 PM · #9

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I actually remember something which pretty clearly implied you would get a payout if you closed the account, but I can't find that post right now.

It's no big deal. Stock photography is not a high priority for me. I just do it because it's extra money.

I posted this to DeviantArt also. I want to make sure people are aware of it.

SharQ

Canon EOS-30D

12/07/2004 06:00:01 PM · #10

To be honest, if you think $100 is a huge sum of money in the stock photography market, it is probably worth considering to find something else to do. I've never sold an image for less than $100 in my life...

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/07/2004 06:03:03 PM · #11

Rather sad in my view. Too bad for them, as I fear that this type of action will not rest well with most people in this forum, and that they will pay a heavy price for this.

tyrkinn

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

12/07/2004 06:03:14 PM · #12

John, I guess you should remove the advertisement for shutterstock in your profile...

Why did you go with istock?

12/07/2004 06:10:50 PM · #13

Originally posted by tyrkinn:

John, I guess you should remove the advertisement for shutterstock in your profile...

Why did you go with istock?

I like the iStock plan better. My volume of sales on iStock is much higher as well.

umbris

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro

12/07/2004 06:13:21 PM · #14

I have to say that I'm stunned that Shutterstock, OR ANY OTHER REPUTABLE BUSINESS ON THE PLANET would not pay royalties when they have sold your intellectual property. That certainly was not my understanding when I signed up. I understand payment thresholds, but if I dissolve my business relationship, I still expect to be paid for what has already been sold.

I am going to immediately seek clarification from Jon, and if this is the case, I am going to cease doing business with this company. I work hard to create my stock portfolio and I'm not going to let it be purloined. I imagine I'm not alone in this view. I wonder if this could result in a supplier boycott.

12/07/2004 06:14:21 PM · #15

Originally posted by umbris:

I think its' been made pretty clear. The even updated their TOS this afternoon to make it more clear.

12/07/2004 06:22:46 PM · #16

I will also soon find out if Dreamstime handles this the same way. I have requested account closure and payout of less than $100 there also.

umbris

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro

12/07/2004 07:00:51 PM · #17

I just sent an e-mail to Shutterstock requesting that they reconsider this new policy. I don't plan to sign up for exclusivity with iStockphoto, but I also will not do business with any company (including iStockphoto) that cheats photographers out of royalties.

I will report back once I receive a reply.

deapee

Kodak V803

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

12/07/2004 07:02:50 PM · #18

That's their policy man...and if you didn't read the agreement when you signed up, then you lose. Sorry to be blunt about it, but that's just how it is -- it's not unfair and no one's getting cheated out of anything -- rules are rules, policies are policies.

JCDean

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

12/07/2004 07:03:45 PM · #19

I'm glad I never joined, if jmsetzler cant get enough downlaods to make a cent I wouldnt fare nearly as well. These sites did seem to me to be giving photographers out there the short end of the stick.

wewillexplore

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

12/07/2004 07:07:27 PM · #20

John - you make more at Istock than Shutterstock in terms of # of downloads? With the same images? I find that stunning. I get triple the downloads at Shutterstock and if THEY had exclusivity with bonus $, I'd drop my Istock in a heartbeat.

M

umbris

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro

12/07/2004 07:18:36 PM · #21

Originally posted by deapee:

Uh, man... I DID read the agreement and it WAS NOT their policy when I signed up 3 weeks ago. It is indeed unfair if I am offered $.20 per use for MY inellectual property and I accept that fee thus creating an agreement. As the copyright holder, I'm entitled to compensation for the use of my photography. Period.

GinaRothfels

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

12/07/2004 07:38:50 PM · #22

At the moment I'm doing similar amounts on the two sites with Shutterstock downloads coming to slightly more per week than iStock. As I don't have 500 downloads yet, I don't have to make any decisions regarding exclusivity, but thinking towards the future, I don't think I'll be putting all my eggs in one basket. Some of my top selling photos at Shutterstock were rejected at iStock, so if I went for exclusivity, I'd lose out on being to use those photos altogether.

SharQ

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

12/07/2004 07:50:31 PM · #23

I just can't believe that you - basically competent photographers - are willing to licence your images for next to no money.

*shakes head*

edit: I have licenced 5 images in the past month (it's a slow month) and made roughly $850... Even considering to licence an image for less than a dollar sends shivers down my spine. what are you thinking?

Message edited by author 2004-12-07 19:52:07.

faidoi

Pentax K10D

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

12/07/2004 07:54:11 PM · #24

I wished I had a 10D