Critique Club: Proposed Restructure

11/12/2004 02:49:27 PM · #101

Originally posted by scalvert:

If a bronze star sets you free to to critique without a chaperone (so to speak), then subsequent levels might also unlock additional priveleges. For example, a Gold or Platinum level might allow you to approve other critiques, thereby freeing up the admins as the site grows.

To summarise, there are several tiers to the new CC (numbers are merely for scaling, and aren't final):
0-49 Critiques - No award, all critiques are moderated
50-99 Critiques - Bronze award, only random critiques are moderated
100-249 Critiques - Silver award, ability to moderate other critiques
250+ Critiques - Gold award, newbie critiquer mentor?

dwoolridge

11/12/2004 03:17:31 PM · #102

Originally posted by Manic:

Originally posted by Gordon:
However it is done, it should appear under your name in every forum post you make. Positive advertising and a competitive aspect to doing the CC's can only ecourage more participation.

I'm not to sure if it should appear on your forum posts, since ribbons currently don't, but it should definitely appear on every challenge comment and critique.

Of course, ribbons are on a per image basis, whereas critique points would be an attribute of the user. Ribbon count might be interesting to have along side in the forums.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

11/12/2004 04:10:08 PM · #103

This is really exciting!
(And, no, I'm not being sarcastic)

:o)

Gauti

Canon EOS-7D

11/12/2004 04:23:03 PM · #104

One thing that just occured to me, and I don't think has been adressed is this thread so far.
What will happen to comments in challenges, is there a risk that people might refrain from commenting and save them for critique credits? What I mean is this:
1) I see a photo in a challenge and see some (at least to me) obvious faults. I make a note of this and when I see the same photo after voting on the CC list I grab it and use my notes.
2) I make some comments on photo in a challenge and then after the challenge somebody from the CC make a critique and just uses my comments as the basis of the critique. So now the critic (sp?) gets CC credits for what were originally my comments and I get none.
So why should I make comments during challenge?

These problems need to be adressed for the restructured CC

BTW I'm all for the new system, just a few bugs that need to ironed out

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

11/12/2004 04:29:41 PM · #105

Originally posted by Gauti:

You don't get to choose which photos you are assigned when doing a CC critique. I think this aspect will remain in the new scheme.

Originally posted by Gauti:

2) I make some comments on photo in a challenge and then after the challenge somebody from the CC make a critique and just uses my comments as the basis of the critique. So now the critic (sp?) gets CC credits for what were originally my comments and I get none.
So why should I make comments during challenge?

This is how it already works. Critiques are often not in isolation but can refer to previous comments. For example I might say that I notice several commenters have already referred negatively to the orange colour cast and then go on to either say that I agree with their assessment or that I notice what they are referring to but personally like what it adds to the image.

I quite like the way that CC critiques sometimes take in the over view of what others have mentioned but then take it further.

I agree that it may lead to a slight reduction in number of ordinary comments left but perhaps this would be offset by the huge increase in in-depth critiques left? Dunno...

Message edited by author 2004-11-12 16:31:41.

dr rick

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

11/12/2004 05:06:53 PM · #106

Overall I like this idea. I do think it should be possible for someone who requested a photo to critique to return the photo to the pool if something comes up and he or she can't do the critique after all. This is not possible with the current system, but if people have to use their hard-earned credits to request critiques, their photos shouldn't be forced to sit in limbo if the critic can't follow through.

The reason for the current rule, as I understand it, is to keep critics from choosing the "easiest" photos to critique, thus delaying reviews of the more difficult ones. I personally think a limited ability to "pass" on a critique would be desireable, so a "newbie" can pass on the daunting prospect of critiquing the blue-ribbon winner for example, or someone who finds nudity offensive doesn't have to critique a nude shot. But to prevent "browsing" the photos, a limit of maybe 5 "passes" a day can be implemented.

11/12/2004 05:27:36 PM · #107

Originally posted by dr rick:

The reason for the current rule, as I understand it, is to keep critics from choosing the "easiest" photos to critique, thus delaying reviews of the more difficult ones. I personally think a limited ability to "pass" on a critique would be desireable, so a "newbie" can pass on the daunting prospect of critiquing the blue-ribbon winner for example, or someone who finds nudity offensive doesn't have to critique a nude shot. But to prevent "browsing" the photos, a limit of maybe 5 "passes" a day can be implemented.

I agree that every now and then it would be useful to be able to pass on an image. There are times when I feel it's not fair for me to comment on an image - personal views making it hard to treat it objectively or just occasionally being stuck for words.

In order to limit people just cherry picking what they do and don't want to critique how about setting it up so that a critiquer can't pass on more than, say, 1 in every 25 images they are assigned?

Edit: I really should learn to proof BEFORE I post!

Message edited by author 2004-11-12 17:28:14.

alsatia

Canon PowerShot G5

11/12/2004 06:14:50 PM · #108

Originally posted by Manic:

Does the newbie critiquer mentor status mean "is allowed to mentor newbies" or "is required to mentor newbies"?

Originally posted by Kavey:

I think 5 passes a day would be excessive and allow for cherry picking, but 1 pass in every 25 assigned images is too restrictive. What happens when you get 2 in a row that you can't treat objectively, after 40 in a row that went smoothly? It seems more workable to not restrict how many critiques can be passed over, but to not allow the user to claim another one for a certain period of time (perhaps 24 hours?) after passing over one.

I also think it would be unfair to use the same system to allow people to pass over nude images. The site already includes a way to mark nudity and not display those images, so having an option for people to check that says "I do not wish to critique nude images" would be nice.

11/12/2004 06:39:00 PM · #109

Originally posted by alsatia:

Does the newbie critiquer mentor status mean "is allowed to mentor newbies" or "is required to mentor newbies"?

I think it'd be a case of optional rather than mandatory, since we don't want to force anyone into doing something they don't want to.

Originally posted by alsatia:

Agreed, we probably should allow only one deferral per 24 hours.

Originally posted by alsatia:

I also think it would be unfair to use the same system to allow people to pass over nude images. The site already includes a way to mark nudity and not display those images, so having an option for people to check that says "I do not wish to critique nude images" would be nice.

The only problem with this is that there would need to be a better way of marking nude images, since currently it's a manual operation done by the SC/admins. Perhaps it should be treated in the same way as challenges - there may be nudes, so view at your own risk at work?

11/12/2004 06:44:04 PM · #110

Originally posted by alsatia:

My numbers were just arbitrary - any way of doing it would work for me - whether it's 1 in n entries that can be passed or whether it's 1 pass in n hours - either sounds good.

Message edited by author 2004-11-12 18:44:59.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Pentax

11/13/2004 05:14:38 AM · #111

OK, here's a quick summary of all the stuff so far:

1) CC comments need to be highlighted (yellow background?).
2) 'Star' awards seem more popular than 'medals'.
3) All existing CC members will start on the same number of critiques as all other users (but perhaps with some extra CC credits).
4) A variant of Gordon's critiquing guidelines needs to be written, aimed at new critiquers.
5) After completing an initial number of critiques (eg 25 or 50), the critiques are only randomly moderated, rather than consistantly.
6) An appeals process needs to be created, whereby the requestor can reject the critique, which would be arbitrated by the CC admins.
7) Awards should be shown on the users' profiles and comments, and possibly on forum posts as well.
8) Challenge comments could be linked to critique credits, but this seems to be a very tricky thing to get right.
9) Possible option of being able to request multiple critiques on one shot, for a higher cost (maybe on a sliding scale).
10) Critiques are randomly allocated to each critiquer when they request to write one.
11) Rating of received critiques by the photographer is possible, but could make things too complicated.
12) Moderators will have specific guidelines to ensure they moderate merely on overall content (eg "not enough detail" or "composition aspects overlooked") and not the individual opinions expressed by the critiquers.
13) The four main tiers of the CC are (approx):
0-49 Critiques - No award, all critiques are moderated
50-99 Critiques - Bronze award, only random critiques are moderated
100-249 Critiques - Silver award, ability to moderate other critiques
250+ Critiques - Gold award, option to mentor newbie critiquers
14) Critiquers need the option of deferring an allocated critique, but this needs to be set up so that they can't cherry pick the critiques they want. One deferment per day seems a good level to start with.

All good stuff folks, thanks for all the feedback!

Message edited by author 2004-11-13 05:17:30.

Artyste

Sony Ericsson W810i

11/13/2004 05:20:51 AM · #112

Sweet!

Where do I sign up?

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Pentax

11/13/2004 05:22:13 AM · #113

Originally posted by Artyste:

Where do I sign up?

Unfortunately, this is just a proposal at the moment - should it go live, everyone will be able to critique. However, if you're interested in critiquing now, you're welcome to sign up to the current CC :o)

Artyste

Sony Ericsson W810i

11/13/2004 05:25:20 AM · #114

Originally posted by Manic:

Originally posted by Artyste:
Where do I sign up?

Unfortunately, this is just a proposal at the moment - should it go live, everyone will be able to critique. However, if you're interested in critiquing now, you're welcome to sign up to the current CC :o)

bah! I need structure, were I to start critiquing now, I'd make people cry :)

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Pentax

11/13/2004 05:33:20 AM · #115

Originally posted by Artyste:

bah! I need structure, were I to start critiquing now, I'd make people cry :)

There's nothing to stop you using Gordon's critiquing guidelines... ;oP

Artyste

Sony Ericsson W810i

11/13/2004 05:34:19 AM · #116

Originally posted by Manic:

Originally posted by Artyste:
bah! I need structure, were I to start critiquing now, I'd make people cry :)

There's nothing to stop you using Gordon's critiquing guidelines... ;oP

hehe.
Mayhaps I will.. for now, I must bed.
I'm up *way* too late, due to a power outage

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

11/13/2004 07:17:16 AM · #117

Manic, excellent summary.
Quick question: in current system can CCers PASS on an assignment at ALL?

Konador

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

11/13/2004 07:42:54 AM · #118

Originally posted by Kavey:

Manic, excellent summary.
Quick question: in current system can CCers PASS on an assignment at ALL?

If they PM Manic or I, then we can put the critique back in the queue, but that's the only way.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

11/13/2004 08:30:18 AM · #119

Originally posted by Konador:

Originally posted by Kavey:
Manic, excellent summary.
Quick question: in current system can CCers PASS on an assignment at ALL?

If they PM Manic or I, then we can put the critique back in the queue, but that's the only way.

And what's the policy you're following on this?
I dropped out of CC because I was told categorically that I would NOT be permitted to request a PASS even occasionally if I felt I was, for whatever reason, not in a position to provide a fair critique. Given that it's (as it currently stands) voluntary, I didn't feel that was fair.
If your policy on that is different (and no I wouldn't abuse this in order to cherry-pick what I commented on) then I'd like to rejoin the CC and get a little practice in.

Konador

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

11/13/2004 08:34:21 AM · #120

If they give me a good enough reason then I will let them have a new photo. I've only ever been asked once or twice though, and they had good reasons :)

11/13/2004 08:42:08 AM · #121

Originally posted by Konador:

If they give me a good enough reason then I will let them have a new photo. I've only ever been asked once or twice though, and they had good reasons :)

That's good enough for me. Chances are I wouldn't ever use this but I just wanted to know that it's not verboten these days. Can you sign me up please?

11/13/2004 08:44:20 AM · #122

Originally posted by Kavey:

Can you sign me up please?

Done. Welcome back :o)