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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Gack!! Minimal is frustrating!
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Showing posts 1 - 25 of 82, (reverse)
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09/25/2017 11:09:09 AM · #1
Forgot to change my settings to jpg.

Tell me again why we can't submit an unprocessed RAW? Couldn't you open the RAW file and see that all the sliders haven't been changed? It seems like that's even more minimal that setting the jpg settings to more saturation, more sharpening, etc.

Just curious. I did forget the reason...
09/25/2017 11:21:43 AM · #2
As I understand it: when adjusting sliders in for example Lightroom the changes are not affecting the raw file but are put into a sidecar (xmp file). So sending the RAW file doesn't mean anything, you still could be able to work on it and save it as a JPG. Please correct me when I'm wrong.
09/25/2017 11:28:03 AM · #3
Did the same thing. I have what without a doubt is a blue ribbon picture, BUT in the wrong format. :) I don't get it either. A JPG can have in camera processing done to it, so to me, it makes even less sense to be JPG only.

Message edited by author 2017-09-25 11:28:23.
09/25/2017 11:31:53 AM · #4
Originally posted by bbower1956:

Did the same thing. I have what without a doubt is a blue ribbon picture, BUT in the wrong format. :) I don't get it either. A JPG can have in camera processing done to it, so to me, it makes even less sense to be JPG only.

That's exactly the point in minimal editing: to use the jpg file as it is processed in-camera. No editing done afterwards!
09/25/2017 12:16:21 PM · #5
I wonder what the reaction would be to scrapping "Minimal" and creating "Limited", which would allow working from RAW but NOT allow cropping, cloning other than dust spots, or any adjustments other than global ones. That is to say, you could lighten the whole image equally, say, but not dodge up a section of it selectively. It wouldn't be as simple as that to write (the rule, I mean) and I'm not sure we wouldn't get just as many complaints about the new one as well, but...
09/25/2017 12:17:31 PM · #6
Great idea!
09/25/2017 12:32:01 PM · #7
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I wonder what the reaction would be to scrapping "Minimal" and creating "Limited", which would allow working from RAW but NOT allow cropping, cloning other than dust spots, or any adjustments other than global ones. That is to say, you could lighten the whole image equally, say, but not dodge up a section of it selectively. It wouldn't be as simple as that to write (the rule, I mean) and I'm not sure we wouldn't get just as many complaints about the new one as well, but...


I would actually really like this. The entire JPG from the camera is really obsolete, especially now. I can do things in camera with my Olympus camera that will produce a JPG that rivals what I can do in post, using things like Live Composite, or in camera focus stacking or the many different filters (which I never use). I like many also only shoot in RAW and Saturday I remembered 1/2 thru the day that I needed JPGs for the challenge. Got some great shots for the current challenge before I switched to JPG and to make it worse my 2nd body didn't have the right JPG settings (recently picked up this camera) and all the good shots are on it, so the photos lack something.

This change would make me so happy and actually get me to participate in the more minimal editing challenges.
09/25/2017 12:39:18 PM · #8
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I wonder what the reaction would be to scrapping "Minimal" and creating "Limited", which would allow working from RAW but NOT allow cropping, cloning other than dust spots, or any adjustments other than global ones. That is to say, you could lighten the whole image equally, say, but not dodge up a section of it selectively. It wouldn't be as simple as that to write (the rule, I mean) and I'm not sure we wouldn't get just as many complaints about the new one as well, but...


I would love this. It would mean getting it as correct in camera as possible. A MUCH better option than the current Minimal, since all Minimal teaches is how to use your camera settings better which does not make you a better photographer in my opinion. There is no place in the real world (even photojournalism) where you can't globally adjust the basics.
09/25/2017 12:41:38 PM · #9
Originally posted by Kroburg:


That's exactly the point in minimal editing: to use the jpg file as it is processed in-camera. No editing done afterwards!


I just don't understand the point of this. So you have learned to use your camera to edit. Are you really a better photographer? Where, in the real world, would this be your only option?
09/25/2017 01:11:19 PM · #10
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by Kroburg:


That's exactly the point in minimal editing: to use the jpg file as it is processed in-camera. No editing done afterwards!


I just don't understand the point of this. So you have learned to use your camera to edit. Are you really a better photographer? Where, in the real world, would this be your only option?


Completey agree with you, but some people think that when you manage to get composition and exposure and all setting right in-camera, you're a better photographer than when you crop and make adjustments in post-processing. It's like buying a $30,000 car with all technical help systems but switch off the reverse help because it makes you a better driver when you can do it without any help. For me only one thing counts: how is my car parked at the end of the reverse manoeuvre.

So, will I submit images when the rules are changed to Limited? Don't think so, still too many restrictions.
09/25/2017 01:12:44 PM · #11
I was really disappointed with Shallow DOF being minimal.

Mostly because I just can't bring myself to shoot RAW+jpg or jpg on my camera. Bleh.
09/25/2017 02:09:16 PM · #12
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I wonder what the reaction would be to scrapping "Minimal" and creating "Limited", which would allow working from RAW but NOT allow cropping, cloning other than dust spots, or any adjustments other than global ones. That is to say, you could lighten the whole image equally, say, but not dodge up a section of it selectively. It wouldn't be as simple as that to write (the rule, I mean) and I'm not sure we wouldn't get just as many complaints about the new one as well, but...


I would love this. It would mean getting it as correct in camera as possible. A MUCH better option than the current Minimal, since all Minimal teaches is how to use your camera settings better which does not make you a better photographer in my opinion. There is no place in the real world (even photojournalism) where you can't globally adjust the basics.

I agree with Elaine. I like this idea. It would allow RAW shooters to not have to change their camera settings back and forth. To me, it would make it truer to its name -- allowing a "minimal" amount. Would it cut down on complaints -- probably not with this crowd.
09/25/2017 02:18:44 PM · #13
the worse part for me is I shoot mirrorless and the jpg settings effect the display in the electronic view finder, even when shooting in RAW only. I have my jpg setting to a very neutral setting, but it is not how I want a jpg image that I would post for people to see. so when I switch to shoot jpg for a challenge it really changes my view in the camera because I have to adjust things to get the optimal jpg image.

I really prefer my neutral look when shooting
09/25/2017 02:26:36 PM · #14
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I wonder what the reaction would be to scrapping "Minimal" and creating "Limited", which would allow working from RAW but NOT allow cropping, cloning other than dust spots, or any adjustments other than global ones. That is to say, you could lighten the whole image equally, say, but not dodge up a section of it selectively. It wouldn't be as simple as that to write (the rule, I mean) and I'm not sure we wouldn't get just as many complaints about the new one as well, but...

I don't think it would be hard to write -- just copy the text from the last iteration of "Basic Editing" ...
09/25/2017 02:47:09 PM · #15
Scrap it altogether. Minimal is a fast way to fill the front page with sub-optimal images. Why would we do it to ourselves?
09/25/2017 03:13:22 PM · #16
maybe if minimal is such a problem, you need not enter. it is true that modern cameras make this a less straightforward matter; maybe we should shoot in an automatic/programmed mode - don't know what all they are these days, since I always shoot in aperture priority. the spirit of minimal is to be a sort of lark, I believe, but the whiners, it seems, are not larkish.
09/25/2017 03:22:38 PM · #17
Why not do a poll about the minimal editing? The people who constantly complain about the minimal ruleset are not the only members on the site.

Minimal challenges do tend to get more entries than standard or extended editing challenges (I have posted the stats on this earlier, but can pull them up from my archive again if needed), so clearly there are a lot of people who enjoy the minimal ruleset. Heck, even the current Shallow DOF has almost the same number of entries as the challenges in voting and there's still more than 24 hours to go.
09/25/2017 03:26:33 PM · #18
I like minimal. I find myself entering more minimal challenges than extended lately.
09/25/2017 03:28:07 PM · #19
Originally posted by K3Master:

I was really disappointed with Shallow DOF being minimal.

Originally posted by Paul:

Scrap it altogether. Minimal is a fast way to fill the front page with sub-optimal images. Why would we do it to ourselves?

From my perspective, here's why: it's always sort of disappointing to me to see specific, technical challenges somewhat dominated by post-processing. In the case of "Shallow DOF", it's really easy to apply that in Post. Ditto for challenges like "Red", "Blue", whatever. There are a lot of times when the "challenge", such as it is, would be, or IMO ought to be, knowing how to do the thing without a crutch.

I know I sound like an old codger reminiscing about how he has to walk 5 miles to school and back every day (I actually DID have to do that, except it was a little over 2 miles) uphill both ways, in snow and rain, kids these days have it so easy... But heck I still feel like there's an inherent worth in learning to create beautiful images "the old-fashioned way". I DO believe that the current Minimal ruleset is pointless, but I'd like to hold onto something that keeps the experience minimal, so to speak.

Originally posted by GenrtalE:

I don't think it would be hard to write -- just copy the text from the last iteration of "Basic Editing" ...

It ISN'T that easy, because we've tried to steer away from tool-based rulesets for the simple reason that we can't keep up with the tools, which constantly evolve. So if we open up "Limited" editing, the hypothetical revised "Minimal", to RAW processing, that alone becomes an issue because in the current iterations of sophisticated RAW processors there's so much editing that can be done that it's mind-boggling.

It probably would be simpler, hypothetically, just to toss the "Minimal" ruleset and NOT replace it, choosing instead to run occasional challenges that have stricter editing limitations flagged onto them, such as "No cropping and no cloning other than for dust spots allowed in this challenge."

Anyway, I'm just thinking in public, so to speak. SC hasn't even had any discussion on this yet, and I was curious what the reaction of the forum habitues would be to the idea.
09/25/2017 03:30:08 PM · #20
But do you like what ends up on the front page....?

I enter them, I quite like entering them - I'm in the DOF challenge; but every one of the images that will end up on the front page would be better under the standard rule set.

I'm just not sure that Minimal does DPC many favours...
09/25/2017 03:32:14 PM · #21
21_F.gif RKT, 21_F.gif Salmiakki, 21_F.gif tnun, I hear ya! Very valid viewpoints. For me, the real bugaboo with Minimal is the unpredictability of getting everyone through validation 'cuz of the shot-in-JPG requirement. It's just as stressful for SC as it for those who are scared they aren't doing it right.
09/25/2017 03:33:06 PM · #22
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


Anyway, I'm just thinking in public, so to speak. SC hasn't even had any discussion on this yet, and I was curious what the reaction of the forum habitues would be to the idea.

In the "old days" I would say this is a good idea, but now the forums are so inactive is it really representative? As I suggested a couple of posts ago, what about a poll? At least regular visitors to the site do at least respond to those. Last year there was a poll about minimal with 254 respondents. That's a heck of a lot more people than we generally get around here.

Message edited by author 2017-09-25 15:33:26.
09/25/2017 03:33:36 PM · #23
I think this is a PERFECT challenge for the Minimal rule set! :-) Seriously.
09/25/2017 03:35:42 PM · #24
Originally posted by Paul:

But do you like what ends up on the front page....?

I enter them, I quite like entering them - I'm in the DOF challenge; but every one of the images that will end up on the front page would be better under the standard rule set.

I'm just not sure that Minimal does DPC many favours...

Not always, no, but then I do not like a lot of what ends up on the front page with nearly all the challenges, so it's not unique to minimal :)
09/25/2017 03:41:04 PM · #25
Originally posted by Paul:

But do you like what ends up on the front page....?

I don't think the mission statement of the site is to provide a superior photo gallery for the public -- it is to help people become "better" photographers by challenging them to do something out of their normal process.

Now, people seem to be complaining that it's too much work to get a beautiful image under the Minimal rule set, not that it's impossible -- but isn't that rather the point of it being a "challenge?" Learning how to exert better control over your equipment, composition and lighting is a bad thing?
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