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03/01/2017 04:21:09 AM · #1
I recently feel that voters are not so generous anymore with giving points. Why is there such a trend since the last few months? It's getting much harder to reach a 6. These challenges are not a contest for the worlds' best pictures. Make DPC fun again.
03/01/2017 05:20:30 AM · #2
It's been bothering me too!

If DPC either made comments compulsory with the scoring, people would have to stop and reason with why they think that is worth what it is. It also gives a chance for the entry to receive feedback to improve it, especially if it's a low scoring one? Was it something technical? Out of focus?

Maybe this could combat tactical voting too (wining entries have 1, 2s and 3s seems so uncalled for).

Or have a scoring criteria created for all to follow.

For example:
1) Does not meet the challenge
2) Meets challenge but doesn't meet technical criteria

Etc, etc

Personally I would love to know why people have scored the way they have. It is all very subjective, of course but I think it would be more constructive overall.
03/01/2017 05:22:10 AM · #3
After reading this, I don't feel so incompetent any more. I was about to sell my camera!
03/01/2017 06:00:29 AM · #4
Originally posted by Ammie:

After reading this, I don't feel so incompetent any more. I was about to sell my camera!


Use that as a drive to keep improving and learning new techniques!!!!
03/01/2017 06:14:04 AM · #5
Have you made a booboo again?

03/01/2017 07:11:18 AM · #6
Originally posted by MAK:

Have you made a booboo again?


Not in a while, it's overdue >.<
03/01/2017 09:59:45 AM · #7
FWIW, I think my voting average since I've been back has increased quite a bit. I find it hard to give a sub 5 any more. Whereas in the old days, I was like...

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_665353.jpg
03/01/2017 10:27:34 AM · #8
It seems that there are many new people here and it also seems that many of them have very low "average votes cast". I consider a 3.7 or a 4.1 a low voting average.
There was a recent question by a new person in another thread asking about voting averages.
http://www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=1340507&page=2#7501201

I have felt for a long time that extremely low voting is a detriment to the site. There have been so many people who have left because of it. It is an attitude and a
negative projection that is really unnecessary. For the health and well being of DP we should all make an effort to vote fairly. If we need to give an image a 1,2 or 3
then we should have the curtesy to tell the photographer why. This is not just about new people. We should all pay attention to 'average vote cast". (imho)
03/01/2017 10:52:53 AM · #9
There are new members who are voting low or not voting at all. This is not fake news.
What to do about it is a question. Currently there is no rule in effect about voting except to be consistent.
And there is no rule that says one must vote at all to be considered a participant.

I suppose one way to look at it is that if all the votes are lower it isn't affecting the outcome just the score?
03/01/2017 10:56:59 AM · #10
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

I recently feel that voters are not so generous anymore with giving points. Why is there such a trend since the last few months? It's getting much harder to reach a 6. These challenges are not a contest for the worlds' best pictures. Make DPC fun again.


I have always voted on the assumption that great photography was the goal. I personally would rather get an honest 4 than a "fun" 7. But maybe most people would prefer to see a good score regardless of the quality or meeting the challenge? Is the idea to improve or to have fun? (Although a case could be made that improving is fun.)
03/01/2017 11:05:41 AM · #11
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

I recently feel that voters are not so generous anymore with giving points. Why is there such a trend since the last few months? It's getting much harder to reach a 6. These challenges are not a contest for the worlds' best pictures. Make DPC fun again.


I thought I was the only one seeing this. I am glad that others are seeing it too. I am not sure the reason behind the trend but it is very discouraging. I agree great photography is the goal but I am seeing great images that are getting 1's and 2's. I always try to take into account that people have put their heart and soul into many of these images and they should be looked at accordingly.
03/01/2017 12:41:44 PM · #12
This is a competition site, the voters are the participants, those with a real motivation to be first or thereabouts could be tempted to vote low. This is only my opinion and I'll not make any friends by saying it but I reckon that it's some of the hard core TT zealots that vote low, or have family and friends doing it for them, it's been a trend for some time. The quality of the TT images here has gone down enormously over the last three years or so. It would be much more fun and rewarding for all of us involved here if we understood that doing well score wise doesn't mean shit in the world of photography.
03/01/2017 12:46:32 PM · #13

Originally posted by jagar:

This is a competition site, the voters are the participants, those with a real motivation to be first or thereabouts could be tempted to vote low. This is only my opinion and I'll not make any friends by saying it but I reckon that it's some of the hard core TT zealots that vote low, or have family and friends doing it for them, it's been a trend for some time. The quality of the TT images here has gone down enormously over the last three years or so. It would be much more fun and rewarding for all of us involved here if we understood that doing well score wise doesn't mean shit in the world of photography.

touché.

Edit to add that there are recent new members who do not fit your participant description because they enter and cast zero votes.

Message edited by author 2017-03-01 12:45:29.
03/01/2017 12:51:58 PM · #14
Perhaps it's just the analytical side of me, but on a 10 point scale it is not hard to figure out that "average" is somewhere in the ballpark of 5. Averages of 3.x or even low 4.x over a long period of time more likely indicates an attitudinal problem of the voter or excess desire to game the system. There used to be a rule/suggestion (there may still be, I haven't checked) that a 1, 2, or 3 vote be accompanied by a constructive reason. This would suggest that these votes are the exception rather than the "average" vote.

The only way to avoid low voting in this DPC environment, as near as I can see, is probably an algorithm that DQs a voter's own image if that voter's average does not meet a threshold number set by Langdon (call it a DQV to distinguish from DQ). After all, if the average is 3.x or 4.x, how many 1 or 2 votes were dished out to offset the better images with higher votes? Subjectivity notwithstanding, if you can't manage to vote using the whole 10 point scale (or a representative portion of that scale) you aren't trying hard enough and/or you are insulting your peers.

As for those who think that giving a low vote is somehow going to encourage people to do better work, I hope you don't use that approach with your family and your employer doesn't use that approach with your compensation.

03/01/2017 01:54:11 PM · #15
I'd posted this in the thread Jane linked and was asked if I would share it again here as it applies. In that thread a person had explained their voting scale - one that assigned a 3 to an image that is considered substandard and a 4 to one that was "on theme but not outstanding". Essentially scores of 5 and up were reserved for the cream of the crop.

***

1 to 10 is not exponential, it's a linear scale - but you're not treating it that way. In school a 5 would be a failing grade, and yet you reserve that for those who would be in the C or C+ range.

One thing to understand is that this place isn't asking you to hand out ribbons, it's asking you to evaluate the images. The desire to say, "This is my top 10, so only these deserve scores above X", is strong, but it's not a realistic way to vote when you consider that ribbons are based on consistency of voting across members. You don't have to have a personal "winner" appear in your numbers. More times than not my "personal blue" got the same score as at least one or two other images. For me to reserve a 9 or 10 just for them and then work backwards is to underappreciate the images that did not make it there.

I'm not saying this to twist your arm and make you change the way you vote. I say it more to, like Jane and Neil, reveal to others reading this thread that your methods are harsher than expected and shouldn't be considered the model for anything "normal" when scoring images here. It's fine to be critical, so maybe do it in the comments. If it's technically brilliant but doesn't move you, don't toss a 5 at it and move on - reward it and critique it. Sure, save your 8's, 9's, and your eventual 10's for the really special stuff (I do). But a 3 isn't average where I come from. I look at a 3 as my "anti-8". In other words if I find something special enough to give it an 8 then I need to find something else equally displeasing and/or inappropriate to give it a 3. Same with 2's and 9's, and 1's and 10's. That's how a linear scale works, and each image is placed on it individually, not as it relates to every other image in the contest, because I am not the judge and jury, I am one of many peer evaluators.

***

Having shared that, I will add my voice to those that lament that there is no direction provided with regard to voting. I have no desire to do it again, but I will state that when you click on the VOTING RULES link under Challenge Rules there is a list of musts, shoulds, mays, and may nots, but not one single attempt to explain what the voting process is supposed to be. In otherwords, the guidelines provide no guidelines.

Robert had posted a "well stated" under my post on the quoted thread, and if the SC would like I would be glad to try and formulate this into some actual set of guidelines and/or principles that can serve the newcomer, because try as I might when I first got here not only could I not figure it out for myself but I couldn't get a straight answer. I have come to accept and understand why, but that doesn't mean that I agree with the cop out of not posting anything.
03/01/2017 02:16:57 PM · #16
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

I'd posted this in the thread Jane linked and was asked if I would share it again here as it applies. In that thread a person had explained their voting scale - one that assigned a 3 to an image that is considered substandard and a 4 to one that was "on theme but not outstanding". Essentially scores of 5 and up were reserved for the cream of the crop.

***

1 to 10 is not exponential, it's a linear scale - but you're not treating it that way. In school a 5 would be a failing grade, and yet you reserve that for those who would be in the C or C+ range.

One thing to understand is that this place isn't asking you to hand out ribbons, it's asking you to evaluate the images. The desire to say, "This is my top 10, so only these deserve scores above X", is strong, but it's not a realistic way to vote when you consider that ribbons are based on consistency of voting across members. You don't have to have a personal "winner" appear in your numbers. More times than not my "personal blue" got the same score as at least one or two other images. For me to reserve a 9 or 10 just for them and then work backwards is to underappreciate the images that did not make it there.

I'm not saying this to twist your arm and make you change the way you vote. I say it more to, like Jane and Neil, reveal to others reading this thread that your methods are harsher than expected and shouldn't be considered the model for anything "normal" when scoring images here. It's fine to be critical, so maybe do it in the comments. If it's technically brilliant but doesn't move you, don't toss a 5 at it and move on - reward it and critique it. Sure, save your 8's, 9's, and your eventual 10's for the really special stuff (I do). But a 3 isn't average where I come from. I look at a 3 as my "anti-8". In other words if I find something special enough to give it an 8 then I need to find something else equally displeasing and/or inappropriate to give it a 3. Same with 2's and 9's, and 1's and 10's. That's how a linear scale works, and each image is placed on it individually, not as it relates to every other image in the contest, because I am not the judge and jury, I am one of many peer evaluators.

***

Having shared that, I will add my voice to those that lament that there is no direction provided with regard to voting. I have no desire to do it again, but I will state that when you click on the VOTING RULES link under Challenge Rules there is a list of musts, shoulds, mays, and may nots, but not one single attempt to explain what the voting process is supposed to be. In otherwords, the guidelines provide no guidelines.

Robert had posted a "well stated" under my post on the quoted thread, and if the SC would like I would be glad to try and formulate this into some actual set of guidelines and/or principles that can serve the newcomer, because try as I might when I first got here not only could I not figure it out for myself but I couldn't get a straight answer. I have come to accept and understand why, but that doesn't mean that I agree with the cop out of not posting anything.


I think you may have just hit the nail on the head.
Instead of using a scale of 1 to 10, why not convert to 1-100, with 10 with possible votes of 10,20,30, etc...
It doesn't change the voting, but it does put the votes on a scale similar to what we are all used to from school (recent for some, ancient history for others like me). It would be mentally harder to pass out "50"'s for average work.

If folks were able to think of A's, B's, C''s, etc., then it might lead to more consistent voting scales.
03/01/2017 02:24:33 PM · #17
there is no solution.

some of my stuff that I would never bother to print gets way higher than stuff I would, and sometimes do. when I vote, my 6 to 10's have to be of some interest.

stuff in the TT's often has no interest for me.

I am really pleased when one of my photos gets the full gamut of scores.

why isn't everyone just like me?
03/01/2017 02:36:20 PM · #18
Maybe there is a solution: you have to increment your personal "avg vote cast"
:)
Only few voters have this parameter over the 6.
It's not a polemic but a fact.
03/01/2017 03:40:17 PM · #19
Originally posted by Sisto:

Maybe there is a solution: you have to increment your personal "avg vote cast"
:)
Only few voters have this parameter over the 6.
It's not a polemic but a fact.

But that approach would be Bullsh*t....

Me: Avg Vote Cast: 6.0353

I just decided after seeing a bazillion threads & posts whining about the low scores not to contribute to the issue.

So I jacked my general curve up a point or two. The 1/2 and 9/10 votes I would be likely to give pretty much would be the same as most, but the median is higher. Truly, those are the scores that least matter in the general voting. It's the outliers that need scrutiny and honest consideration.

As far as a magic formula to make people vote and comment with thought and compassion, NEVER going to happen. You're either the type of person to be courteous and devote time in return for participation, or not. Some people simply don't have a lot of time, but they still like to enter. It is what it is.

This place is kind of like a bathroom scale that weighs out ten pounds heavy. If you fixate on the numbers, you'll get frustrated, if you watch the progression, it will give you a encapsulation of what the voting is actually telling you.

The other thing that is IMNSHO crucial to remember is that the voting is anonymous. That means that it is NOT personal. So don't take it personally.

The ONLY thing that you, the viewer, the voter, the photographer, the community member can change is YOUR attitude and perspective.....so just utilize the graphing content for what it is and let the chosen point range go.

I'm sitting on a 4.8 in FS right now that prolly woud have easily pulled a 5.8 five or so years ago. Would either of those be an image I'd enlarge, print and frame? Not necessarily. Thing is, this particular image resonates wih me and I've already decided what size it will be and what frame I'm using. So in this particular instance the score is not only irrelevant, it's kind of amusing.

I do have rose colored glasses about DPC......but I also learned how to keep those glasses clean and in focus by adjusting my attitude and perspective over the years to fully take advantage of the resources and feedback I find here.

Ultimately, if you submit an image, you're happy with it, and the voters seemingly don't like it? Screw 'em. Just determine your image's own worth for yourself.

If you specifically truly want feedback, critique, and the general feel from other photogs, start a thread in Indivual Photograph Discussion, and be specific in asking what you want to know.

All of this rambling and $0.50 will get you a cup of coffee if you shop carefully, but hopefully it may offer another POV less distasteful than getting a score that you view as just plain wrong.
03/01/2017 04:09:03 PM · #20
Originally posted by booboo_goon:

Originally posted by Ammie:

After reading this, I don't feel so incompetent any more. I was about to sell my camera!


Use that as a drive to keep improving and learning new techniques!!!!


You and I both, beginning to think it was only me. struggleto get anything around a 5 pehaps 8 is the new 10 !!!!
03/01/2017 05:37:18 PM · #21
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:


1 to 10 is not exponential, it's a linear scale etc etc etc


3, 5, and 7 are prime. 1, 4 and 9 are squares of integers.

"Counting from 1 to 10 is math so I can speak about it objectively and everyone has to score the way I do."

No. Thank you, no. Is a 10 photo twice as good as a 5 photo? Is it 5 times as good as a 2 photo? We can have a lively discussion about how to vote, but to have SC enshrine a "linear scale" in the rules? This site is linear enough, thank you. Let everyone vote in their own mad way. The law of averages will enact its cruel truths regardless.

03/01/2017 09:47:59 PM · #22
I don't know. Perhaps it's the length of time I've been here, or maybe the entries truly are declining in quality, but I find less moments of "wow" or "cool" when voting on challenges as of late. I used to really work at trying to keep my avg vote cast over 5, however it's dipped below 5 the past couple of months. Often I go back and look at the votes I've given and try to bump enough of them to raise the avg vote cast for that challenge.

Curious, I went back and gathered stats on the past four challenges that I cast votes on. It breaks down as follows:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hearty Fun
10 0
9 1
8 1
7 3
6 10
5 11
4 10
3 4
2 2
1 2

# of Votes 44
Vote Avg 4.7955
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ruckus
10 0
9 1
8 1
7 3
6 6
5 8
4 3
3 3
2 3
1 2

# of Votes 30
Vote Avg 5.3000
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Communication II
10 0
9 0
8 3
7 3
6 9
5 8
4 4
3 5
2 1
1 3

# of Votes 36
Vote Avg 4.8611
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whatever Weather
10 0
9 2
8 6
7 6
6 13
5 20
4 18
3 6
2 7
1 2

# of Votes 80
Vote Avg 5.1000
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Combined for these 4 challenges: 5.0158

Edit to fix a typo.

Message edited by author 2017-03-01 21:56:07.
03/01/2017 11:16:41 PM · #23
Originally posted by Ammie:

After reading this, I don't feel so incompetent any more. I was about to sell my camera!


Ammie do not sell your camera. You are too good for that anyway, I know you're just kidding. I'm boasting a 3.8 on the Free Challenge and I'm not selling. I was giving high scores hoping people would catch on but no chance of that.The last couple of times I have given several 10s and go down from there. I try really hard to be fair in voting. I do have to admit it the low scores makes me want start with 1 and go from there.
03/02/2017 01:10:17 AM · #24
Well just don't give up I have put up shots that I reallly like have worked on and they have been shot down in flames, yet elsewhere they have been Lauded, I guess its Horses for courses and if your image is not liked, or accepted by the voters you will suffer. They are a tough lot on here. sometimes unforgiving of things,especially cultural matters .

Message edited by author 2017-03-02 01:12:13.
03/02/2017 06:33:48 AM · #25
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Robert had posted a "well stated" under my post on the quoted thread, and if the SC would like I would be glad to try and formulate this into some actual set of guidelines and/or principles that can serve the newcomer, because try as I might when I first got here not only could I not figure it out for myself but I couldn't get a straight answer. I have come to accept and understand why, but that doesn't mean that I agree with the cop out of not posting anything.

Originally posted by Posthumous:

No. Thank you, no. Is a 10 photo twice as good as a 5 photo? Is it 5 times as good as a 2 photo? We can have a lively discussion about how to vote, but to have SC enshrine a "linear scale" in the rules? This site is linear enough, thank you. Let everyone vote in their own mad way. The law of averages will enact its cruel truths regardless.

Here's the thing of it; my "well-stated" on Jake's post was a reflection on how his approach to scoring is rational, well thought out, and similar to mine, in that I try to be even-handed. Posthumous, on the other hand, is talking to my spirit, as it were. There's nothing easily-codified about "voting on art" except to the extent that a particular codified approach may reflect a particular individual's approach ranking images from "best" to "worst".

We've all seen posts, from time to time, from members who show us how they vote by breaking down scores into subsets; so many points for meeting the challenge, so many for technical excellence, so many for emotional connection, add 'em all up and you have a score. I'm OK with that. I think that works for people who like to be precise and analytical. I tried doing it that way for a while, but it didn't work for me; I lost the soul of the thing. So I went back to a more personal, intuitive voting process. And over time (this is something I'm not alone in, gawd knows) I found that I'd mostly "seen it all before" in terms of obvious (and popular) responses to certain types of challenges. So I found myself, for example, giving lower scores than I used to when I encountered your average, spectacular, Icelandic night shot of the aurora borealis. You've got to shoot an aurora with a little something new, or extra, to get an 8+ vote from me now, I'm jaded. And that's OK. Human tastes are like that.

It's my suspicion that a lot of the steady drop in scores that we have seen is attributable to others like me, who've been voting for a long time and aren't easily impressed. I don't think there are anywhere NEAR as many "trolls" working our challenges as folks sometimes seem to suggest. And I believe that the low voters, to the extent that they exist, pretty much always are fairly even-handed in how they spread those votes around, so they affect all of is about the same.

For what it's worth, I've cast 160,000+ votes that counted and my average score given could round up to 5.4, it's in the high 5.3's. So I'm a tad on the low side, I'm a pretty demanding voter. Here's my actual voting breakdown for all to see:

VOTE COUNT
1: 77
2: 41
3: 1714
4: 40704
5: 58976
6: 40929
7: 15413
8: 6736
9: 2690
10: 1049

I don't know if the above is in any way helpful to anyone. Voting, of course, is a private matter, but I'd be happy to show any individual member their lifetime voting breakdown if they PM me and ask me.
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