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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Christians Vs. Religious(other) - Evidence & Proof
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02/05/2015 07:57:45 PM · #1
Ok folks, so we've gone over this ground a billion times along the Atheist Vs. Christian path. Let's try a new approach, as it's been pretty well demonstrated that we're not making progress on the other path very quickly.

Here's the problem: Every time we start to talk about God, the idea of Proof and Evidence comes up, and it's pretty clear to me at this point that I, as an atheist, have very different standards of proof and evidence.

So, as an alternative, let's try this with something that's at least compatible with your standards of Proof/Evidence.

--

Please explain to me what Evidence or Proof you accept when you dismiss the claims of other religions as false. I have included 5 questions below, the answers to which I believe will help to illuminate this issue in a more understandable way for both sides of this argument.

1. What proof is there that Mohammad was not a prophet of God? (Islam)
2. What evidence is there that you won't go to hell for eating bacon-wrapped shrimp? (Judaism)
3. What proof is there that there aren't MANY gods? (Roman Mythology)
4. What convinced you that Amon Ra was not God? (Egyptian Mythology)
5. How do we know that the Mercury and Mars are not gods? (Celtic Polytheism)

ADDENDUM: What evidence would convince you that you were mistaken in your beliefs as a Christians and Muslims are correct?

--

You can say that these questions are unfair (negative proofs) - but surely, if you've chosen Christianity, then you have considered your options - (otherwise that wouldn't be a choice would it?), so I want to understand what led to you accept Christianity while rejecting other religions.

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 20:50:50.
02/05/2015 08:04:06 PM · #2
*runs to make popcorn*
02/05/2015 08:30:35 PM · #3
Since scientists don't tend to prove what's false (the burden of proof is on the person making the claim), I would rephrase the question.
02/05/2015 08:31:37 PM · #4
O I SEE WAT U DID THAR.
02/05/2015 08:33:00 PM · #5
I've already mighterly upset another member on the religious front this week, rattled his cage something awful. staying clear of Religion in all its forms at the moment its a bit sensitive
02/05/2015 08:41:00 PM · #6
I'm a dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lie in bed all night wondering if there really is a dog.
02/05/2015 08:44:19 PM · #7
Interesting, I seem to have posed the impossible question.

ETA: Be aware that if you (as a group) fail to answer to this, I will absolutely bookmark this thread to be brought up every time you make some supernatural claim.

Seriously folks, if you can't answer these questions with relative ease, then I would posit the theory that you, in fact, have no reason to believe what you do.

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 20:54:20.
02/05/2015 09:18:34 PM · #8
So you are asking for proof on a topic predicated on belief or faith.

Ok.

If there exists a God I'm pretty sure he could stay hidden from proof if he wanted to.

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 21:18:55.
02/05/2015 09:26:34 PM · #9
This whole debate ends up as who can debate the best. Nothing more. Neither side gains any ground.
02/05/2015 09:31:00 PM · #10
Originally posted by Mike:

This whole debate ends up as who can debate the best. Nothing more. Neither side gains any ground.


+1

Belief and proof are mostly mutually exclusive.
02/05/2015 09:43:56 PM · #11
I think your problem lies in one of your postulates: "if you've chosen Christianity, then you have considered your options."

Now, I may know different people, a lot of different people, than you. But, one thing that is consistent among most of them is that they were raised that way with those particular beliefs. I have rarely, if ever, met a person that 'chose' Christianity or Islam; all of them were born into it. I frequently meet Taoists, Buddhists, and Atheists who chose their 'religion' after research and experience (though I know a few of each that were born into each).

So, what you need to find, to answer your questions, is someone who was raised in a different tradition that actually chose Christianity (and I don't mean a Catholic who became a Protestant). It is not an impossible question, you just need to find the right audience.

For your answer, the one I suspect you will get from the majority of Christians (And Muslims for that matter) is faith.
1. Joseph Smith may also have been a prophet. But Christians follow Jesus.
2. If you confess and are reborn, Jesus takes away all your sins. If you believe, there is nothing that will send you to hell.
3. There is no proof there are no other gods. In fact, one of the commandments alludes to other gods.
4. Ammon Ra may be a god, but he is not my god.
5. They may be gods (see 4 and 3). They are not the one true god.

Please understand, I am coming into this not having read the other thread. I was raised catholic but have consciously chosen an alternate path. I grew up among born-agains. Most people don't bother examining their beliefs - they just believe it. You can ask similar questions about superstitions, astrology, new age crystals, shamanism, you name it. People just believe what they do and there is rarely a rational reason for doing so.

Good luck in your quest...
02/05/2015 09:44:57 PM · #12
.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:24:26.
02/05/2015 10:04:13 PM · #13
I thought this was a Photography site?
02/05/2015 10:07:23 PM · #14
Theography challenge?
02/05/2015 10:17:16 PM · #15
I've read some of the Bible. It's inconsistent and often incomprehensible, but that's understandable since it is a collection of writings that span 500 years or so, and the last of it was written about 1900 years ago. But it does have good bits here and there if you get the King James Version.

There's nothing in there about going to church or going to communion, or abortion, or gay marriage, or the Trinity. No Christmas, no Easter. So a bunch of people tell us what the book really means, so we don't have to understand it.
02/05/2015 10:17:16 PM · #16
double post....

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 22:17:36.
02/05/2015 10:21:19 PM · #17
Originally posted by posthumous:

I've read some of the Bible. It's inconsistent and often incomprehensible, but that's understandable since it is a collection of writings that span 500 years or so, and the last of it was written about 1900 years ago. But it does have good bits here and there if you get the King James Version.

There's nothing in there about going to church or going to communion, or abortion, or gay marriage, or the Trinity. No Christmas, no Easter. So a bunch of people tell us what the book really means, so we don't have to understand it.


and therein lies the rub! Exactly no mention of easter, Xmas..... so why do people celebrate these 'days' only bc of tradition, not bc they believe in God. I had to find out myself, I stopped celebrating those days 19 years ago, and never looked back, everyone should know those days were celebrated by pagans, it's in all the encyclopedias, not hidden from man.

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 22:24:07.
02/05/2015 10:39:22 PM · #18
This was a part of my wedding pictures (I did not take it)
Keepig it DPC here LOL

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1141346.jpg (my belief)

In situations like this, I am taught not be quarrelsome but to be kind to everyone and never to answer in arguments, hence why I never got involved in the other threads nor have I took time out to even spend my energy and time within those threads to read them. Nor will I keep the entertainment in this thread, but I just wanted to drop this one thought only because it was brought up a different way.

All I can do is explain this proof in this way, and perhap somehow who knows... Poeple always want proof of this or proof of that..so here is how I look at it.

It's like this Example: I cannot "prove" to you that my parents loves me. But what I can do is give you the "evidence" of 46 years of marriage, all the 42 yrs of my life, with and during all the things over the years they have said and done to give me "proof" that it is true.

You then need to make a choice based on "my" evidence.

My proof lies in the movie: God's not dead--- Is the Holy Bible itself good enough to others and real? Is it proof? To me.. it is and its all I need to know.

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 22:57:02.
02/05/2015 11:09:39 PM · #19
Originally posted by Cory:

I have very different standards of proof and evidence.

Not really. Claiming a different standard of evidence is a textbook special pleading fallacy, and it's no coincidence that any "evidence" acceptable for religion would rule out disproof and fail to distinguish the believed god from other disbelieved myths (hence your post). Waiving the normal standards of evidence also waives any grounds for belief in a specific god without the anonymous, and often absurd, claims of a Bible or Koran. If any religion were true and exclusive of others, as each claims, then its followers would unavoidably stand out like a statistical sore thumb for answered prayers and divine favoritism. For the most part, people don't choose their religion because people don't choose their parents. Confirmation bias and lack of critical thinking takes over from from there, and the resulting cognitive dissonance of faith makes them acutely defensive when challenged with questions or criticism.
02/05/2015 11:30:16 PM · #20
waste of time.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:24:52.
02/05/2015 11:30:44 PM · #21
1) Mohammed is not a prophet of God. The Biblical qualification for a prophet of God is 100% accuracy.
2) Jewish tradition forbids eating unclean foods, based on the Pentateuch. These were sins, which could be forgiven by Jehovah upon presentation of the appropriate sacrifice.
3) Many gods? That depends on your definition of "god". The first of the ten commandments states, "You shall have no other gods before me." which kind-of implies that there are other gods.
4) Amon Ra? Oh, you mean one of the gods that Jehovah mocked and defeated with the plagues that preceeded the exodus. The plagues were specifically directed at each of the major Egyptian gods.
5) Since Mars and Mercury have no known impact on my current life or my future, they have no relevance whether or not they are gods.

Addendum: Evidence proving true that which is false? Is that even possible? If the real Mohammad were to stand before me, living and whole, I might consider the possibility.

Growing up in a very strong Christian home, I readily admit my viewpoint may be prejudiced. And yes, childhood experience has played a huge role in my faith. If Christianity was just dogma, that would not convince me - in fact, quite the opposite. But both my parents lived what they believed - day in and day out, in good times and in very hard times. They showed by their example that you can have a relationship with God, and I have found the same true in my life. Not by doing good, but through the effort on God's part - because He wants to have a relationship with me (and you, too). I never found Christianity lacking in any way. I never was given reason to doubt the Christian teachings by my parents or other close relatives.

Now, to be fair, I've answered your questions. Please answer mine.

Why is it so important to you to prove Christianity is false?

...Zipping up my flame-retardant fire suit

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 23:33:41.
02/05/2015 11:34:25 PM · #22
Originally posted by Neat:

Well miracles are definetely proof of existense of God... Phrophecy is the biggest proof...

How so and such as?
02/05/2015 11:42:45 PM · #23
[gone.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 03:25:07.
02/05/2015 11:44:25 PM · #24
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Cory:

I have very different standards of proof and evidence.

Not really. Claiming a different standard of evidence is a textbook special pleading fallacy, and it's no coincidence that any "evidence" acceptable for religion would rule out disproof and fail to distinguish the believed god from other disbelieved myths (hence your post). Waiving the normal standards of evidence also waives any grounds for belief in a specific god without the anonymous, and often absurd, claims of a Bible or Koran. If any religion were true and exclusive of others, as each claims, then its followers would unavoidably stand out like a statistical sore thumb for answered prayers and divine favoritism. For the most part, people don't choose their religion because people don't choose their parents. Confirmation bias and lack of critical thinking takes over from from there, and the resulting cognitive dissonance of faith makes them acutely defensive when challenged with questions or criticism.

Most folks' natural response when attacked is to be defensive. Why did no one immediately answer Cory's questions? No one wants to be mocked or made out to be a fool. And yes, many people trundle through life without much serious thought about what they learned growing up, including religion / belief (or non-belief) in the supernatural. The categorical dismissal of any argument that doesn't conform to the rigid but constantly shifting criteria employed by most unbelievers makes it a rather moot point to have the discussion.
02/05/2015 11:57:47 PM · #25
Originally posted by dtremain:

Why is it so important to you to prove Christianity is false?

Cory didn't attempt to prove Christianity was false, he only asked why others believed it was true... presumably reasons that would be logically credible. Note that each of your answers rely on dubious or unfounded assuptions, from a prophet with 100% accuracy (Jesus incorrectly prophesized that he would claim his kingdom on earth before his contemporary followers died) through reliance on claims from an arbitraily grouped collection of ancient and anonymous manuscripts (the story of Exodus may be no more real than talking snakes or vegetation existing before the sun) to Mars and Mercury having no known impact (the fact that you don't know means you're only assuming they aren't).
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